Abortion

[Danoff]

I'd better get out of here before you all boil me in oil or something.

I'm pretty sure my statements (buried in this thread from years past) are still the most offensive to be made here.

 

[TexRex]

I'd better get out of here before you all boil me in oil or something.

I'd rather you make an effort to elaborate upon and substantiate your remarks instead of suggesting others are simply reacting to what you've said because it somehow wounds them. I'm really only speaking for myself here, but I suspect others are in a similar position.

You have a way with words my friend!

Okay.

 

[Dogwolf77]

Why? And don't say STDs, it has nothing to do with abortion or pregnancy.

'cause mamma said so...(kidding). I sorta feel like that would have been enough. Perhaps it comes down to virtue, morals, scruples, don't 🤬 upon first meeting a stranger. That sort of thing. Outside of that, I got nothing I'll admit.

Not really. But there are a bunch of misplaced steps in your line of reasoning that democrats should want people to be forced to carry unwanted pregnancies because it will secure votes.

Not forced, never. I'm saying it's a paradox how politicians are polarized on the subject. The OPPOSITE way, in my view. It would get waaaay to off topic to get deep into this so I'll leave this one alone.
You ask some great questions Danoff!

 

[Danoff]

'cause mamma said so...(kidding). I sorta feel like that would have been enough. Perhaps it comes down to virtue, morals, scruples, don't 🤬 upon first meeting a stranger. That sort of thing. Outside of that, I got nothing I'll admit.

Well.. what's immoral or unscrupulous about hooking up with a stranger? Aside from that your parents thought it, or that the church thinks it.

See, this is not a good reason to stigmatize abortion. There's this circular "sex is bad" therefore "abortion is bad" therefore "sex is bad" reasoning going on here. I'm looking for some other reason that having to have an abortion is a "bad decision".

It's an inconvenient decision I'll grant. It can be painful to deal with the effects, and it certainly costs time and money. It is altogether an unpleasant experience. But "bad", "immoral"? For this you have to start thinking that the person is harming something that has rights... and that's the very crux of the conversation.

 

[Klostrophobic]

I can prop this up. Sounds like a rather common sense approach to me.

Damn, pretty weak take from me 16 years ago. That take is old enough to drive now.

 

[Danoff]

Damn, pretty weak take from me 16 years ago. That take is old enough to drive now.

Wow

 

[Klostrophobic]

Wow

Unfortunately I didn't abort it, and now it's preserved so well here.

 

[Dogwolf77]

Unfortunately I didn't abort it, and now it's preserved so well here.

That’s crazy, are you all saying this thread is that old? I had no idea. I thought it looked interesting this morning and read page by page, not aware it was a time capsule I’d stumbled upon. I’m new to GTPlanet (clearly).

 

[polysmut]

If you're ok with having an abortion performed, are aware of all risks associated with it, and can find a doctor to perform the procedure, then, by all means, go through with it.

I think, in the UK at least, abortion is a lot less risky than not having one. The procedure is that a nurse gives you a pill and your body does the rest. With the permission of 2 doctors.

 

[Joey D]

I think, in the UK at least, abortion is a lot less risky than not having one. The procedure is that a nurse gives you a pill and your body does the rest. With the permission of 2 doctors.

No disagreement from me. I think the biggest risk involved with abortion is how the patient will accept it mentally afterward. Otherwise, there's probably some risk of bleeding associated with it, but that's probably it.

 

[TexRex]

I think the biggest risk involved with abortion is how the patient will accept it mentally afterward.

I imagine that's a fair assumption, and it's what I'd assume as well.

In addition to counseling prior to the decision to or not to abort, I'm given to understand that Planned Parenthood offers counseling services after procedure/treatment, or at bare minimum provides assistance in getting further counseling in the same way they aid those in need to get counseling/treatment for PPD.

...

It looks like a Texas bill (H. B. 896)--intended to enable those who receive or provide abortion services to be charged with criminal homicide (a crime punishable by death under current Texas law)--is stillborn.

https://www.texastribune.org/2019/0...bortion-bill-leach-tinderholt-safety-concern/

Rep. Jeff Leach (R-Plano), chair of the House Committee on Judiciary and Civil Jurisprudence, has sought the services of the Collin County sheriff's office regarding "security concerns" since stating on Twitter Wednesday, following a public hearing on Monday, that the bill wouldn't pass from his committee to the full House for a vote, citing concerns that the bill represents a move in a bad direction for the state and the pro-life cause that he supports.

The bill's author, Rep. Tony Tinderholt (R-Arlington) defended the bill in a statement released Wednesday and stated that there would be protections for women in the case of a medical emergency or coercion and prosecutors and juries can be trusted to “show deep sympathy” toward women, though there is no mention of such protections in the bill itself.

Now...I maintain that ambiguity in law is not in the best interest of those that laws are supposed to protect, and I frankly have difficulty believing that those tasked with presenting and deciding cases would be inclined to read between the lines of the law when doing so doesn't serve their agendas.

I also wonder about those security concerns. Why do I get the impression that threats of violence were received as a result of the statement? And isn't it a bit hypocritical (if not the least bit unexpected) to threaten someone's life when you're supposedly interested in saving lives?

 

[HenrySwanson]

You're all over the place here.

I'm not sure that's the case. Consider the opposing argument and see at what stage people are comfortable at allowing abortion up to. That seems to me to be all over the place.

Look at how they've rated the pro-life film I linked to. I've only got halfway but it "only" shows a USS guided 13 week abortion and some POC (products of conception) and it's deemed more unsuitable to children than The Dark Knight, a film in which a grown man's head is slammed into a pen which goes through his eye instantly killing him

The issue with it is that the second entity doesn't exist. Until it's at the point where it is capable of survival outside of the womb (with support, by choice, from other entities), it is not a life and it is not alive. Sure, it has will be have going to have been alive possibly, but it isn't. Stopping the process doesn't harm any humans, but it does prevent any further harm coming to the one human involved.

The thing is, and I got this idea from a Law and Order episode, the verse:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them"

means they are likely to believe that they do exist, as a male/female in the image of God. (In the episode one of the lawyers joked that we probably just devolved from the embryos in the petri dish)

I was involved in some research recently that involved mice embryos and while I knew they weren't viable outside of the womb, I wouldn't consider them to have not existed.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not sure that's the case. Consider the opposing argument and see at what stage people are comfortable at allowing abortion up to. That seems to me to be all over the place.

There is a bright line... birth. Your whatabout there doesn't affect whether or not you're all over the place. You can be all over the place and people opposed to your view can be as well. There's no such thing as conservation of allovertheplace.

Look at how they've rated the pro-life film I linked to. I've only got halfway but it "only" shows a USS guided 13 week abortion and some POC (products of conception) and it's deemed more unsuitable to children than The Dark Knight, a film in which a grown man's head is slammed into a pen which goes through his eye instantly killing him

Speaking of all over the place, what does the rating of this movie have to do with whether or not one can be consistent with a pro-life position?

I wouldn't consider them to have not existed.

Me neither. Doesn't make them mice. It makes them mice embryos.

 

[TexRex]

The thing is, and I got this idea from a Law and Order episode, the verse:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them"

means they are likely to believe that they do exist, as a male/female in the image of God. (In the episode one of the lawyers joked that we probably just devolved

What basis for your argument is a work of fiction supposed to be? Oh, wait...

 

[Famine]

believe

Yup. That's religion putting exactly as much stock in science as suits them at any given moment. The second it doesn't suit them, belief happens.

I was involved in some research recently that involved mice embryos and while I knew they weren't viable outside of the womb, I wouldn't consider them to have not existed.

But not as entities. They weren't mice. They could neither function as mice nor as any kind of independent being.

pen

Pencil.

 

[HenrySwanson]

There is a bright line... birth. Your whatabout there doesn't affect whether or not you're all over the place. You can be all over the place and people opposed to your view can be as well. There's no such thing as conservation of allovertheplace.

So you think the majority who think abortion is morally acceptable view the line as "birth"?

Speaking of all over the place, what does the rating of this movie have to do with whether or not one can be consistent with a pro-life position?

I was showing how variable the position is on when a group of cells becomes a life is as viewed by a judging audience.

What basis for your argument is a work of fiction supposed to be? Oh, wait...

I was stating what Christians may believe.

But not as entities. They weren't mice. They could neither function as mice nor as any kind of independent being.

So would you say that foetal medicine is the practice of medicine on things that don't exist?

Pencil.

Damnit....

 

[TexRex]

So you think the majority who think abortion is morally acceptable view the line as "birth"?

Assuming one would even attempt to attribute a particular perspective to a group of people, in what way does doing so further the discussion?

I was stating what Christians may believe.

You cited a work of fiction that itself cited a work of fiction.

And seriously, what's with this "what others believe" bull? I (and no doubt others (/s)) think you should drop it.

So would you say that foetal medicine is the practice of medicine on things that don't exist?

Why would anyone say that? This is just you twisting things others said into something they didn't so that you can argue against it as absurd, and it's by no means the first time.

 

[Danoff]

So you think the majority who think abortion is morally acceptable view the line as "birth"?
I was showing how variable the position is on when a group of cells becomes a life is as viewed by a judging audience.

Why on earth is any of that relevant?

 

[HenrySwanson]

Assuming one would even attempt to attribute a particular perspective to a group of people, in what way does doing so further the discussion?

Danoff opened the door. I was merely saying if he believed as he did does that mean people would likewise draw the line at birth

You cited a work of fiction that itself cited a work of fiction.

It was more to setup the line about devolving from what was in the petri dish. I have no doubt that without that episode I could make the case that they believed the embryos were another human life

And seriously, what's with this "what others believe" bull? I (and no doubt others (/s)) think you should drop it.

I can't think of a more appropriate line since I believe in emergency contraception whereas some Catholics don't even believe in contraception. I also believe in a woman's right to abortion, but believe it's morally wrong.

Why would anyone say that? This is just you twisting things others said into something they didn't so that you can argue against it as absurd, and it's by no means the first time.

It's not twisting things, it's forming an argument. Famine's statement was: The issue with it is that the second entity doesn't exist. Until it's at the point where it is capable of survival outside of the womb

I used the words as was appropriate without twisting things. If you can point to where I twisted Famine's words to make a point I'll retract.

I can go further with my point:

If someone wears a "Baby on Board" badge on the underground expecting me to give up my seat for them, can I say that whatever's growing inside them doesn't exist?

 

[Famine]

So would you say that foetal medicine is the practice of medicine on things that don't exist?

No, I'd say it's the practice of medicine on foetuses.

It's not twisting things, it's forming an argument. Famine's statement was: The issue with it is that the second entity doesn't exist. Until it's at the point where it is capable of survival outside of the womb

I used the words as was appropriate without twisting things. If you can point to where I twisted Famine's words to make a point I'll retract.

You're ignoring the word "entity", and the rest of the second sentence.

I can go further with my point:

If someone wears a "Baby on Board" badge on the underground expecting me to give up my seat for them, can I say that whatever's growing inside them doesn't exist?

If you like. I believe it's still legal to be a bell end if you choose to be.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Why on earth is any of that relevant?

I was giving distinct boundary lines and showing how those on the opposite side of the argument waver on where to draw theirs

No, I'd say it's the practice of medicine on foetuses.

According to you, it would be:

"the science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease"

on something that is an entity (a thing with distinct and independent existence), but that doesn't actually exist?

* definitions from Google

If you like. I believe it's still legal to be a bell end if you choose to be.

But isn't it funny that we call that person a "bell end" yet reserve judgment on the person who chooses to kill the same entity?

 

[Famine]

According to you, it would be:

"the science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease"

on something that is an entity (a thing with distinct and independent existence), but doesn't actually exist?

If you stopped reinterpreting my words and omitting them to suit, you wouldn't need to ask.

Some stages of foetus can survive outside the womb as an independent entity. Others cannot. The ones that can't do not exist as entities. Amusingly your chosen and quoted definition of entity concurs with what I said before...

But isn't it funny that we call that person a "bell end" yet reserve judgment on the person who chooses to kill the same entity?

What entity?

 

[Danoff]

I was giving distinct boundary lines and showing how those on the opposite side of the argument waver on where to draw theirs

Why on earth is that relevant?

 

[Joey D]

Utah gonna Utah:

https://www.ksl.com/article/4654793...ution-detractors-say-city-council-overstepped

I find this a fairly dangerous path if it's not challenged in court. Riverton is largely LDS and to my knowledge, everyone on the city council belongs to the church. So it's really the LDS church passing a non-binding resolution at the city council level. But then again, it's Utah and we're pretty much a theocracy until everyone over the age of 50 dies off.

 

[TexRex]

https://www.ksl.com/article/4654793...ution-detractors-say-city-council-overstepped

While no formal survey was conducted, McCay said she asked residents through Facebook and in conversations, and most of the people she talked to supported the idea. She guessed the resolution would reflect what the majority of Riverton residents believe.

She added that she's received a lot of messages via email, text and social media from people saying, "We also want to protect the unborn."

...

Y'know..."pro-life" really is a peculiar label for these people, but then I guess it sounds a lot nicer than "anti-choice". See, if they were genuinely pro-life, they'd acknowledge others' rights to do what they choose to their own bodies; to living their life on their terms...even if it goes against what they, the "pro-lifers", believe.

But no, they've decided that one life is more important than another, and it's the life that isn't capable of living unassisted. There are no guarantees that this life will at some point be capable of living unassisted, of doing so but only up to a certain point, of making its own choices and of contributing to the process of reproduction...and yet it's somehow more important than the life that it's being weighed against, which is one that has demonstrated it can meet those standards.

 

[Danoff]

and yet it's somehow more important than the life that it's being weighed against

...because God.

 

[Liquid]

Utah gonna Utah

And Alabama has Alabamaed (Guardian US). The state senate has passed a bill which prohibits abortion in almost all cases except where the immediate health of the mother is at risk. There are no clauses or exceptions for rape and/or incest of any kind; a late amendment to include such was turned down.

Doctors found guilty of performing abortion will have committed a felony and face between 10-99 years in prison. Women who have one will not face prosecution as far as I am aware.

Planned Parenthood and ACLU are already planning to challenge the Alabama State Legislature in court.

The bill was passed in a 25-6 vote.

---

What a disgusting bill to pass.

 

[Dennisch]

Hmm. That sweet smell of religion having the last word.

 

[Liquid]

Hmm. That sweet smell of religion having the last word.

Land of the free, terms and conditions apply.

 

[HenrySwanson]

And Alabama has Alabamaed (Guardian US). The state senate has passed a bill which prohibits abortion in almost all cases except where the immediate health of the mother is at risk. There are no clauses or exceptions for rape and/or incest of any kind; a late amendment to include such was turned down.

Doctors found guilty of performing abortion will have committed a felony and face between 10-99 years in prison. Women who have one will not face prosecution as far as I am aware.

Planned Parenthood and ACLU are already planning to challenge the Alabama State Legislature in court.

The bill was passed in a 25-6 vote.

---

What a disgusting bill to pass.

Outlawing it only pushes it to other jurisdictions or to backroom abortions.