ABS 0 not locking?

[GTP_Jonjig]

What's wrong with the bugeye Subaru ABS? I've never heard that one.

The 2001-2003 Scooby had a recall for the abs, seems like a lot never went back, I've had several incidents in several different ones in different conditions where the abs has kicked in a the last second increasing the braking distance by 2-3 foot, quite un-nerving when it happens at a junction.
have a look at this link, it's very common;

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...zYGwBg&usg=AFQjCNF1dTkRRfqN8vFcx8IFUoZLeE50gg

I've seen it happen whilst in a blob eye too, but that was in snow.

 

[Griffith500]

The seasonal with the XKR whatever-it-is is a good illustrative point of context.

The stock brakes at 5/5 are not enough to get consistent short stopping distances on SH tyres, but will still lock the inside wheel when turning (with ABS 0). I had to gradually up the power to 7/7 until I got the bite I wanted, but then I noticed the bias was overly forward, and compounded that car's tendency to understeer. So I tweaked it to 6/7 and boom, beautiful adjustability on the brakes, perfect progression and feeling of reaching the limit. Probably cheating, technically.

Put ABS on, though, and there's no issue with stopping distance. This is not new behaviour, in GT5 the brake power felt higher without ABS than it did with it - obviously with GT6, the effect is generally reversed. That was advantageous in my case, because I wasn't having to stand on my brake pedal's load cell all the time, and it gives useful "scrubbing" with just the slightest touch of the pedal.

The up-shot is that to get the best out of no ABS braking, you still need to learn how braking works, and how useful they are in "tuning". That really is not a downside at all. At least now no ABS braking is easier on the inquisitive / adventurous newcomer.

 

[Gabba73]

In real life the brake pedal works throught the force applied, no throught the travel of the pedal as the DS trigger or many wheel pedals.
Poliphony make the GT5 brake works as in real life so you need a good pedals with load cell to simulate in the right way the braking.
In GT6 after last patch the brake works better with trigger and normal pedals but is unrealistic because in real life it does happen never you press the brake pedal all the way down

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

In real life the brake pedal works throught the force applied, no throught the travel of the pedal as the DS trigger or many wheel pedals.

Not true, its liquid in a pipe, the further you press the pedal, the further the piston(s) moves, more force just achieves full extension quicker. GT6 is going the right way.

 

[Griffith500]

Not true, its liquid in a pipe, the further you press the pedal, the further the piston(s) moves, more force just achieves full extension quicker. GT6 is going the right way.

Liquids are classically considered incompressible, and that holds in reality for the most part. Once the pads hit the disc, any further movement in the pedal is the result of flex in the mechanical parts (or something changing the volume of the system, e.g. assistance). You need next-to-no force to get the pistons to "extend".

I've never tuned brake systems for a car, but have a bit of experience on bicycles, and with the best brakes I ever had the lever didn't budge a millimetre once the pads made contact with the rotor. It was a pure pressure control, perfect given the high number of pressure sensors in one's digits.

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

Liquids are classically considered incompressible, and that holds in reality for the most part. Once the pads hit the disc, any further movement in the pedal is the result of flex in the mechanical parts (or something changing the volume of the system, e.g. assistance). You need next-to-no force to get the pistons to "extend".

I've never tuned brake systems for a car, but have a bit of experience on bicycles, and with the best brakes I ever had the lever didn't budge a millimetre once the pads made contact with the rotor. It was a pure pressure control, perfect given the high number of pressure sensors in one's digits.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing with my quote?

I'm presuming your bike brake is a hydraulic disc brake? which is just a miniature car brake and pretty much works the same (except no engine vacuum assist). If you've used a braided hose instead of a normal flexi pipe you'll have a firmer lever, same as a car.. the only difference is leverage between pedal and lever / foot and pedal, so that "not even a millimetre" on your lever could translate to and inch on the pedal.

my original statement stands.. its liquid in a pipe.

Now back to the topic of how brilliant PD are for the direction 0 abs is going please

 

[Gabba73]

Not true, its liquid in a pipe, the further you press the pedal, the further the piston(s) moves, more force just achieves full extension quicker. GT6 is going the right way.

No way.
In real life the braking efficiency is given from the force you apply; in real life when the braking pedal goes down giving you no resistence (as in gaming pedals) means there is a problem, a failure in the car braking system.
In real life the stroke of the brake pedal is minimal.

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

No way.
In real life the braking efficiency is given from the force you apply; in real life when the braking pedal goes down giving you no resistence (as in gaming pedals) means there is a problem, a failure in the car braking system.
In real life the stroke of the brake pedal is minimal.

Way

your original statement implies that you could apply maximum force on a small percentage of the pedals acceptable travel ( as in tap it hard ) and slam the brakes on in real life..

my gaming pedal does increase in resistance the more its depressed and doesn't go to the floor, its not as strong resistance as a car because its a piece of metal and not hydraulic, could do it to the DS3 with a larger spring and a small sponge ball

In real life the stroke of the brake pedal varies from car to car..

 

[Gabba73]

Way

your original statement implies that you could apply maximum force on a small percentage of the pedals acceptable travel ( as in tap it hard ) and slam the brakes on in real life..

my gaming pedal does increase in resistance the more its depressed and doesn't go to the floor, its not as strong resistance as a car because its a piece of metal and not hydraulic, could do it to the DS3 with a larger spring and a small sponge ball

In real life the stroke of the brake pedal varies from car to car..

You don't want understand.
A real brake pedal works in different way of a trigger or basic gaming pedals.
So in GT5 Poliphony make the brake pedal works more similar to real life and you need a gaming pedals with load cell to brake more efficiently.
In GT6 Poliphony make the brake pedal works unrealistic to make the braking more easy with trigger and gaming pedals without load cell (like G25/G27 pedals, like Thrustmaster T500, like Fanatec CSR pedals).

If you have basic pedals that works unrealistic you can't judge a game braking system; you need at least a Fanatec CSR elite (better a Clubsport) or some G25/27 modding (like total spanish http://www.totalspanishsimulator.com/wp/en/reviews/opiniones-clientes/opiniones-mod-brake-g25g27/ ) in order to judge a real game braking system.

To conclude, Poliphony to make the braking system more suitable for non-proper controllers make it less realistic with appropriate controller (load cell pedals).

In accurate Pc sim (like iRacing, AC, Netkar) you have an option to adapt the braking sytem to your gear: linear brake or load cell brake.

 

[Griffith500]

So are you agreeing or disagreeing with my quote?

I'm presuming your bike brake is a hydraulic disc brake? which is just a miniature car brake and pretty much works the same (except no engine vacuum assist). If you've used a braided hose instead of a normal flexi pipe you'll have a firmer lever, same as a car.. the only difference is leverage between pedal and lever / foot and pedal, so that "not even a millimetre" on your lever could translate to and inch on the pedal.

my original statement stands.. its liquid in a pipe.

Now back to the topic of how brilliant PD are for the direction 0 abs is going please

Of course they're hydraulic, and yes braided hoses, mono-bloc billet calipers and other rigidity-focused optimisations - the fluid barely moves once the pads make contact. Other brakes, including one I use every day, move significantly; over an inch in some cases. Most of that is the caliper (split, die cast) or lever flexing.


Any hydraulic system works via the incompressible pressure transduction through the working fluid. The pressure applies a force proportional to the area it acts upon - if any of that fluid's container is free to move, namely master and slave pistons, they will exert a force upon whatever they come up against in proportion to their area. In a braking system, master pistons, the bit attached to your foot or finger, are smaller in area than slave pistons, the bits actuating the pads - that results in the force applied at the master piston being increased at the slaves.

That's how the feeble force applied by your foot can stop a car, even without assistance - friction is proportional to the force applied. It's also why "boiling" (denaturing) the fluid or accumulating water content makes the pedal go spongey: you're introducing compressible components, i.e. gases either from fluid decomposition or boiled water (brakes get hot).

Whilst a compressible "hydraulic" system will still work (pneumatics), the extra effort in compressing the working fluid reduces the advantage possible (force multiplication) and also wastes energy through irreversible compression / decompression cycles resulting from intermediate heat loss. That's why compressibility in the brake fluid makes the brakes less effective.


Again: once the pistons are "extended", most of the extra travel in the pedal is due to mechanical flex from the hydraulic pressure, either in the lines, the calipers, the rotors or any of the mountings (brake lines tend to try to straighten out). Braking is a force-dominated phenomenon, not "travel".

That's primarily why the pedals made for playing games with suck (relatively speaking); they require us to apply brakes using a linear movement, and to memorise "positions", rather than by applying a force through our foot that is directly proportional to the force applied at the tarmac, as we do in real life. Thanks to all the "pressure sensors" on our skin etc., we are actually naturally better at modulating brakes via pressure / force than by position.

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

You don't want understand.

I do

A real brake pedal works in different way of a trigger or basic gaming pedals.

One applies pressure to liquid, the other increases electrical current.

So in GT5 Poliphony make the brake pedal works more similar to real life and you need a gaming pedals with load cell to brake more efficiently.
In GT6 Poliphony make the brake pedal works unrealistic to make the braking more easy with trigger and gaming pedals without load cell (like G25/G27 pedals, like Thrustmaster T500, like Fanatec CSR pedals).

I wasn't aware of this.

If you have basic pedals that works unrealistic you can't judge a game braking system; you need at least a Fanatec CSR elite (better a Clubsport) or some G25/27 modding (like total spanish http://www.totalspanishsimulator.com/wp/en/reviews/opiniones-clientes/opiniones-mod-brake-g25g27/ ) in order to judge a real game braking system.

I checked the video, a hydraulic system like that would be nice (ridiculous price!), but the "feeling" through the pedal is found on all pedals, spending $250 makes it easier to control, I'd take what insidesimracing say with a pinch of salt, they make wild statements in all their videos, 9min 20 on this video, claiming a g27 with this mod is the best equipment available to him, surely the same mod on a fanatec or thrustmaster would be better? those guys are daft.[/quote]

To conclude, Poliphony to make the braking system more suitable for non-proper controllers make it less realistic with appropriate controller (load cell pedals).

I wasn't aware of this.

In accurate Pc sim (like iRacing, AC, Netkar) you have an option to adapt the braking sytem to your gear: linear brake or load cell brake.

Nice, that would be nice on GT.

I understand

 

[PepeMickey]

My 2004 Ford Ka can lock up pretty easily, I've been driving this car for 8 years now and I've only changed the brakes once, the tyres have some mileage but they're good for another year or more at the very least.

This car is very light, it has crappy brakes (only has discs on the front) and the tyres aren't producing any crazy levels of grip and it can lock up whenever you want it to. The brake pedal also has very little travel.

If this little car can do it at will in real life, I can only imagine how a heavier, high powered car with a better brake/tyre combo would react with no ABS and full force braking.

If you think that you can brake hard at high speeds and don't lock up until the speed is reduced drastically you're not braking hard enough.

 

[FussyFez]

My 2004 Ford Ka can lock up pretty easily, I've been driving this car for 8 years now and I've only changed the brakes once, the tyres have some mileage but they're good for another year or more at the very least.

This car is very light, it has crappy brakes (only has discs on the front) and the tyres aren't producing any crazy levels of grip and it can lock up whenever you want it to. The brake pedal also has very little travel.

If this little car can do it at will in real life, I can only imagine how a heavier, high powered car with a better brake/tyre combo would react with no ABS and full force braking.

If you think that you can brake hard at high speeds and don't lock up until the speed is reduced drastically you're not braking hard enough.

This will be due to the tyres mate.

Skinny, and probably low quality. I'm sure the ka ingame would lock up as standard with ABS 0.

I honestly don't understand what the issue is. I can get any braking characteristics I want with the settings provided. Most standard cars I try will lock the fronts with ABS 0 and stock brakes and tyres.


I have driven many cars in real life that will threshold brake with full power at high speed, but lock at lower speeds under the same pressure.

For use with a linear input device, GT6 has nailed abs 0. I use a dfgt with a sponge under my brake pedal. No issues, genuine pleasure to drive all assists off.

 

[TexRex]

The first thing that springs to mind in regards to the original post is that SH tires were installed on an otherwise unmodified car. With so little weight and not enough power to reach speeds that other cars can reach on the same tires, the car probably remained relatively flat and allowed for equal distribution of braking grip at all four corners. I was racing a stock Toyota 2000GT at Ascari in practice mode with a Honda NSX '01 on SH in the running, and while I was unable to overtake it on CS with ABS off at the end of 2 laps, the reduced brake lock with increased tire grip of SH (as well as the increased overall grip) allowed me to accomplish the task. I'd like to note that even with the lower performance level, lower grip of CS, slow cars in need of passing, and lack of driving aids, I was able to get onto the start/finish straight before the NSX crossed the line...just not pass it.

 

[Griffith500]

I found I had to run the 106 Rallye at 10/10 on CS tyres, and that's still a touch low really. It obviously varies from car to car, but the adjustability is there at least.

I wonder if PD look at the brake diameter and assume a stopping power for non-ABS use? Obviously that's only part of the equation, as the braking torque is dependent on the effective radius of application and the actual force applied - smaller brakes require more force to give the same torque (that torque is translated to a force at the contact patch).

There was that "brake fade" label pulled out of one of the game files, the same one with all the sound related stuff, too. Hmm.

 

[HuskyGT]

It's very hard to lock the brakes in GT6. You would have to have them at 5/5 to lock them, but most likely it won't happen in a straight line and it will also depend on road bumps, tire selection and what not. I kind of like how ABS 0 feels in this game, reason why I mostly spend driving my classic cars.

Racing brakes are a different deal. 1/1 is enough to get them locking all around. I avoid these brakes, unless the car really needs them, or if the car had 4 wheel disc brakes as an option/later upgrade, like the Corvette C3, Camaro Z28 or later model 300SL Gulwing. Otherwise, stock brakes all the way.

 

[TexRex]

I have no trouble forcing brakes to lock when switching to harder compounds than what cars come equipped with when I use normal brakes. It's usually a matter of forcing it though.