ABS off vs ABS 1

[Trux]

Here are the results of a little test I did this evening.

Now I am no Alien racer, far from it. In fact I'm a pretty average paced guy that uses a wheel and cockpit view and I find the AI usually far to easy in this game.

I tried adding ballast and choosing a lower pp car or lesser tyres with mixed results.

This evening I tried ABS off and then raced again with ABS 1. Same race, same cars.

A Spec Extreme Series Schwarzwald League B

Nordschleife 1 Lap

Opponents PP503 - PP559

I picked a Audi R8 4.2 FSI R TRONIC '07. No oil Change as I wanted PP as low as possible for the car so in this case PP511.

Race 1 ABS 1

A pretty boring race. I never plough through the AI and always try to pass safely. Anyhow, having started 7th I was able to get up to 5th by Fluplatz and then outbraked 3 cars at once into Aremberg. I took the lead under braking at the beginning of the Ardenauer Forst section and with most of the lap to go I never really came under pressure from the AI. I won easily by 16 seconds over second place and I wasn't pushing.

Race 2 ABS Off Brake Balance changed to 1 Front/1 Rear

More challenging without being overly difficult and tons more fun. I was racing the entire lap.
Passing safely was much harder and I only got into 3rd place by the Dottingher Straight. I then picked up the draft of an RS6 Avant and got into 2nd. A BMW M5 won the race with me +1.3 behind.
A great race and so much more fun than the solo time trial lap of the first race.
If I had not already won the gold and only picked up the silver I would have happily done the race again.

I immediately found that the only real advantage I had over the competition was the fact that I had 4WD (apart from the other Audi's).
I could still out-brake the AI but passing safely was much more challenging and passing multiple cars at once was an opportunity that never presented itself.

Now I've got absolutely nothing against those that use aids of any type as we all have different skill levels and peripherals etc. and everyone should use what makes the game fun for them personally. But, if do race with just ABS 1 then I highly recommend trying a similar test yourself. For me it's a game changer.

 

[amar212]

It will be even greater game changer if you use proper values for the Brake Bias for your future non-ABS races

 

[Fobia]

That's some seriously good info Amar!

As for this thread, yes I agree (from what I read), ABS1 or ABS off make very little difference to me (in racing of course). I always race without ABS so I'm kinda used to it.

 

[Trux]

Yes great thread Amar, I will definitely have a proper read through.
To be fair I did absolutely no testing with the R8 and the back was a little loose under braking so a vaule of F1/R0 or F2/R1 may have been better.
I'm sure every car is different but the R8 is all I've tried so far.
Cheers

 

[lebes14]

I find the difference between abs 1 and off very large, I love racing with it off!

 

[Forgetful]

If anyone is looking to race online with no ABS, come checkout DriverSports events here in the events section or at our forum.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=252213

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=251157

 

[HuskyGT]

Cars irl that have ABS = On at 1

Cars that don't have ABS irl, race cars and old cars = OFF

That's how I do it. It's not like there is a switch, lets say in a BMW M5 (or other modern street sprots cars), to turn the ABS off like there is with other assists, plus I don't see any advantage of doing so. The car will simply loose it's natural feel.

However I would find it rediculous to have a BMW 2002, any TVR, the old Challenger, an FC RX-7, a Lotus Elise, the Peugeot 908, Mazada 787, a Ferrari F40, and other similars with ABS on since their erratic behavior is natural due to the lack of this assistance, and having the ABS ON would kill the fun in these.

But hey, everyone is free to choose. As for me, I have no problems with driving with ABS off. It's actually a lot of fun, specially when knowing that the car doesn't have it in real life. It adds authenticity.

 

[ItsHim]

It will be even greater game changer if you use proper values for the Brake Bias for your future non-ABS races

I'm not quite sure ABS 1 prevents wheel lockup. In any mode (A Spec, arcade, online) the most efficient way to brake is progressive use of the brake, not slamming it to the floor. (ATM Im stuck with my DS3). Braking distance is noticeably reduced by this alone. A good way to try this is on Fuji at the end of the main straight.

Another good way to efficiently brake is to modulate the gas pedal while full on the brakes. Could be a glitch, but again braking distance is noticeably reduced.

Furthermore on a very wet track (Le Sarthe in Arcade) I found ABS 1 doesn't prevent spinning under heavy braking, so I assume there's still lockup.

Now I'm with you that IRL, the most efficient way to stop my ABS, brake assisted car is to press the brake pedal as quickly and as hard to the floor as possible. There's total strait line stability even in very wet conditions.

But I really can agree on ABS 1 preventing lockup, nor is it to my experience the best way to brake when simply flooring the pedal.

Thoughts?

 

[Korza]

I'm not quite sure ABS 1 prevents wheel lockup. In any mode (A Spec, arcade, online) the most efficient way to brake is progressive use of the brake, not slamming it to the floor. (ATM Im stuck with my DS3). Braking distance is noticeably reduced by this alone. A good way to try this is on Fuji at the end of the main straight.

Another good way to efficiently brake is to modulate the gas pedal while full on the brakes. Could be a glitch, but again braking distance is noticeably reduced.

Furthermore on a very wet track (Le Sarthe in Arcade) I found ABS 1 doesn't prevent spinning under heavy braking, so I assume there's still lockup.

Now I'm with you that IRL, the most efficient way to stop my ABS, brake assisted car is to press the brake pedal as quickly and as hard to the floor as possible. There's total strait line stability even in very wet conditions.

But I really can agree on ABS 1 preventing lockup, nor is it to my experience the best way to brake when simply flooring the pedal.

Thoughts?

Even with ABS set to 1, I can get thew wheels to lock up on some cars if I brake hard enough..

 

[ItsHim]

Even with ABS set to 1, I can get thew wheels to lock up on some cars if I brake hard enough..

I assume longer brake distance results from wheel lockup. The same for cars wanting to spin on a track with 90% surface water and grip set to real. What cars to your experience don't suffer from this with abs 1?

 

[HuskyGT]

I'm not quite sure ABS 1 prevents wheel lockup. In any mode (A Spec, arcade, online) the most efficient way to brake is progressive use of the brake, not slamming it to the floor. (ATM Im stuck with my DS3). Braking distance is noticeably reduced by this alone. A good way to try this is on Fuji at the end of the main straight.

Another good way to efficiently brake is to modulate the gas pedal while full on the brakes. Could be a glitch, but again braking distance is noticeably reduced.

Furthermore on a very wet track (Le Sarthe in Arcade) I found ABS 1 doesn't prevent spinning under heavy braking, so I assume there's still lockup.

Now I'm with you that IRL, the most efficient way to stop my ABS, brake assisted car is to press the brake pedal as quickly and as hard to the floor as possible. There's total strait line stability even in very wet conditions.

But I really can agree on ABS 1 preventing lockup, nor is it to my experience the best way to brake when simply flooring the pedal.

Thoughts?

It's like you say. It's all about knowing how to modulate the braking. When I'm driving cars with no ABS I only hit the pedal to the floor in rare cases for a fraction of a second when at high speeds, then I modulate and "pump" lightly on the pedal to avoid locking the wheels. It's all about not putting all the force to the brakes.

Even with ABS 1 I do the same since pushing hard on the brakes, especially during turns, will guarantee you a massive understeer. You'll even see a white cloud of burnt rubber to confirm that wheels do actually lock with ABS 1.

I use a DS3 also, btw. Though I use the right stick to brake and accelerate. It gives me the best control over these pedals.

Another thing that's also very important is the brake bias, just like Amar said. 5/5 is too much and it will lock your tires with the slightest touch to the brakes. 0/0, 1/0, 1/1 or 2/0 is what I find the best, depending on the car and if you want to replicate the fact that it has good or bad brakes irl.

 

[Korza]

I assume longer brake distance results from wheel lockup. The same for cars wanting to spin on a track with 90% surface water and grip set to real. What cars to your experience don't suffer from this with abs 1?

I can get my Infiniti Coupe Concept to lock up with ABS set to 1. The braking distances aren't too much longer, but you can see the Tyre marks and smoke.

 

[ItsHim]

I can get my Infiniti Coupe Concept to lock up with ABS set to 1. The braking distances aren't too much longer, but you can see the Tyre marks and smoke.

Will try it, thanks! Is that in any mode or specific to one? And do you have grip on "real"?

 

[Korza]

Will try it, thanks! Is that in any mode or specific to one? And do you have grip on "real"?

Not sure. It's a tuned version just so you know. I'm not sure of the settings, cause I use it a lot online.

 

[Griffith500]

With ABS set to anything but 0, you will not lock your wheels - locking implies no rotation. You may still get lots of squealing and excess lateral slippage (and hence smoke), but that's not the same thing.

The ABS in this game is nothing like most systems in the real world. Real world systems rely on the delayed measurement of indicators of wheel speed, road speed (and yaw rate for stability control functionality), then there's the calculation delay, then the actuation delay of the mechanisms that bleed off braking force to bring the wheel speed back where it should be. Then there's a further delay when the bleed mechanism has to reset to bring braking force back up again, and repeat. Add to that the fact that not all systems can bleed braking power per wheel, or even per axle (or diagonal pair), and things get even less consistent.

This means all real-world ABS systems allow actual locking (zero rotation speed) / very high slip angles (slow rotation speed vs. road speed) for short bursts before killing the braking force to some level that is probably too low, also for short bursts, and transitions repeatedly between the two states. This is known as "pulsing". Newer systems, especially those on new motorcycles, use "predictive" methods that allow for faster "reactions", smoother control and can also pulse at much higher frequencies, or even bleed the braking power proportionally (instead of on / off).
But they're still nowhere near as effective as the ABS in GT, which can just limit the braking force in code according to the available grip at each wheel, instantaneously, which means the wheel speed is always the same as the road speed (relative to the direction of travel and wheel orientation).

The reason progressive braking still "works" is that the traction circle still applies. Maximise braking effort, and there's no grip left to turn on, so you have to modulate the brakes in order to do both. That is what ABS values higher than 1 accomplish, and is something that very few, if any, real world cars do (Evo X as a possible example, but that still has the limitations listed above).
In other words, ABS=1 results in hideous understeer for most cars unless very deft use of the brake pedal is applied in conjunction with the steering, but it is always sterilised by the instantaneous matching of braking force and wheel grip, applied per wheel. This favours the outside wheel (more load = more grip) and compounds the understeer by yawing the car out of the turn!
Such understeer might tempt drivers to turn the wheel too much to "compensate", which will result in black marks and smoke, and to basically be very aggressive with steering input by turning very hard to initiate yaw and then braking (which is basically initiating a spin before even touching the brake pedal.)
That's the kind of thing you don't want to be doing when you disable ABS.

Removing ABS and running low brake balance (brake power, really) settings can make the car drive more like the real thing in many cases, because the above-mentioned sterility is removed and everything is "free", as Amar says.

What's more, in my tests online, braking distance is identical with ABS set to 0 as it is set to 1. I didn't bother modulating the brake pedal in either case so the tyres left big elevenses without ABS (locked), but didn't with it (rotating at road speed). Tyre temperature also had no effect, but that might just be an online thing.
In other words, the tyres grip the same, longitudinally, when locked as they do when not!
The problem is that all lateral grip is gone, so you can't turn...

 

[Spagetti69]

What does ABS 7 do?

 

[Griffith500]

What does ABS 7 do?

It makes the ABSs less than 8, but more than 6. More ABSs in general compensate for a player's poor brake modulation when turning at the same time, and mitigates the understeer such players would experience, but cannot reduce understeer below the level that 1 ABS gives.
As such, extra ABSs give no benefit to drivers who know how, and are physically able, to stay within the traction budget on the brakes.

 

[JDMKING13]

ABS 1 in my opinion acts more like a stability control rather than a true ABS system. ABS off makes GT5 come alive and really shows who can brake around town.

 

[amar212]

More ABSs in general compensate for a player's poor brake modulation when turning at the same time, and mitigates the understeer such players would experience, but cannot reduce understeer below the level that 1 ABS gives.

ABS 1 in my opinion acts more like a stability control rather than a true ABS system.

Agreed. ABS is NOT representation of the real-world ABS system. It is just an *braking assist* that helps stabilising the car while braking.

Majority of games uses *ABS* to name such assist just because players can easier identify it as brake assist. It should probably be called *Assist for Braking*. When set to 1 you get minimum *assistance* while on 7 you get somewhat more. What this arbitrary *ABS* is doing is allowing easier turning while breaking and it is it's greatest single *functionality*.

When you turn the ABS OFF you practically remove all of background *assists* on both brakes, suspension and tyre-grip and you are releasing the full-physics.

 

[OK8]

More and more people are finally realising the true nature of "ABS" in this game. I just wish there were more ABS 0 leagues.

 

[Nismo34]

I found that no ABS makes changing brake balance vital for handling under brakes I.E, higher rear brake pressure, more oversteer under braking, higher front brake pressure, more understeer under braking.. Where as ABS on 1, having a high back brake didnt seem to do anything...

 

[Spagetti69]

So ABS 1 doesn't lock up tires at all. That's why I asked what the other value ABS does. ABS7 I assume doesn't lock up tires at all. So what it all about Alfie?

Interesting to know that there's no ABS system modelled at all in GT. So newer modelled Cars with legitimate ABS systems are?...... nerfed?
Strange situation TBH.

Edited to add. Maybe turning off ABS and finding a realistic tuning brake balance can simulate a realistic ABS?

 

[avens]

So ABS 1 doesn't lock up tires at all. That's why I asked what the other value ABS does. ABS7 I assume doesn't lock up tires at all. So what it all about Alfie?

Interesting to know that there's no ABS system modelled at all in GT. So newer modelled Cars with legitimate ABS systems are?...... nerfed?
Strange situation TBH.

Edited to add. Maybe turning off ABS and finding a realistic tuning brake balance can simulate a realistic ABS?

ABS in GT5 provides an absurd amount of stability. It's not a super ABS alone (since they don't work like that irl nor are that effective), but also adds more assists.

In short, if you want to ....brake in GT5 you must turn ABS off, otherwise it's missing the most important element of racing, which is braking. It's literally a whole different game without it.

 

[XEPEGTP]

More and more people are finally realising the true nature of "ABS" in this game. I just wish there were more ABS 0 leagues.

I know JDMking13 is working on something, we got a few people in, check out PGTR on GTP.

Time zones might be an issue though.

 

[JDMKING13]

I know JDMking13 is working on something, we got a few people in, check out PGTR on GTP.

Time zones might be an issue though.

OK8 Is already part of the team. He is fast as hell and can drive anything. He will be head licensing/time setter Rep. I just finished the the tire information on PGTR I just have list all the tires. Check it out it's called get a grip.

So ABS 1 doesn't lock up tires at all. That's why I asked what the other value ABS does. ABS7 I assume doesn't lock up tires at all. So what it all about Alfie?

Interesting to know that there's no ABS system modelled at all in GT. So newer modelled Cars with legitimate ABS systems are?...... nerfed?
Strange situation TBH.

Edited to add. Maybe turning off ABS and finding a realistic tuning brake balance can simulate a realistic ABS?

Thats where it's at bro turn off ABS and tune the BB and GT5 is a new game. 1-0 for old cars weak brakes. 2-0 for normal brakes, 3-1/3-0 for brakes like EVO 9 350Z Brembos 4/1 4/2 for supercars/great brakes. Anything more than that is race car brakes material. I treat ABS like an extra AID that is found on newer cars like the R35. You can turn off majority of the aids in the GTR35 to get it loose however there is a mode where it still has assist kicking in helping the car stay stable.

Here is an example of the GTR35 brakes, and assist regulation in PGTR

Nissan uses an assist in the Spec V called VDC-R this means Vehicle Dynamic Control there are 3 modes comfort normal and R "high performance mode" So to relate this to PGTR while playing GT5 you have four assist settings you can use while driving the Spec V

Brake balance 4/F 2/R
Comfort Mode- ASM ON TC 5 ABS1
Normal Mode- ASM ON TC 1 ABS 1
R Mode-(VDC-R on) ASM Off TC off ABS 1
R Mode-(VDC-R off) ASM Off TC off ABS 0

 

[HKS racer]

Even suspensions values play a big role on how your car slow down. (ABS off)

Softer suspensions = less squeling tyres = more "brake power" = more consistent and faster lap times.

 

[JDMKING13]

Even suspensions values play a big role on how your car slow down. (ABS off)

Softer suspensions = less squeling tyres = more "brake power" = more consistent and faster lap times.

Going off of what you said tuning with ABS1 on is useless in my opinion.

 

[HKS racer]

Going off of what you said tuning with ABS1 on is useless in my opinion.

If you are going to race with ABS off you could quick fix ABS 1 tunes in this way:
If it's 15.4 front 16.4 rear you could try with 10.4 front 11.4 rear. Drop booth sides by the same amount. Sometimes work sometime not.

 

[HuskyGT]

ABS 1 in my opinion acts more like a stability control rather than a true ABS system. ABS off makes GT5 come alive and really shows who can brake around town.

Hmm... I'm starting to understand you guys now. You guys don't drive without ABS just to show off that you can, but because the ABS in the game isn't really what a true ABS system would work. That gives me a lot to think of.

Thank goodness that I'm one of those who can bring out the full potential of the car without ABS. I'll play around with the settings and see what I can discover about modern sports cars without GT5's "ABS."

 

[JDMKING13]

Hmm... I'm starting to understand you guys now. You guys don't drive without ABS just to show off that you can, but because the ABS in the game isn't really what a true ABS system would work. That gives me a lot to think of.

Thank goodness that I'm one of those who can bring out the full potential of the car without ABS. I'll play around with the settings and see what I can discover about modern sports cars without GT5's "ABS."

That's it husky and i'm sorry if I came off like I was being better than anyone because thats not the case I just want the most realistc experience I can get in GT5 👍 Also in my league ABS is allowed however it has stipulations. This is an example of how an owner of a Nissan GTR35 can use ABS in PGTR

Nissan uses an assist in the Spec V called VDC-R this means Vehicle Dynamic Control there are 3 modes comfort normal and R "high performance mode" So to relate this to PGTR while playing GT5 you have four assist settings you can use while driving the Spec V

Brake balance 4/F 2/R
Comfort Mode- ASM ON TC 5 ABS1
Normal Mode- ASM ON TC 1 ABS 1
R Mode-(VDC-R on) ASM Off TC off ABS 1
R Mode-(VDC-R off) ASM Off TC off ABS 0

New cars normally have modes where you can use ABS 1 and like I said It's used more as a extra stability control when the ASM is off. 👍 90's sports cars like Supra RX-7 etc have no ASM so you cannot use ABS at all with them.