Abs

[stealth300]

A human can brake better than ABS, but probably way less than 1% can. In real life I prefer no ABS, but in a game there are so many things missing.

I do hope your refering to the game and not real world because a human CANNOT brake quicker than a ABS system.

Below is a quote i pulled from a lotus elise site,this should help you understand.

"Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)
The Elise doesn't yet come with ABS for several reasons. Firstly, it takes time to develop and it simply hasn't been a priority for Lotus. Secondly, it costs money to develop and will significantly add to the price of an Elise. And finally, the Elise handling will be slightly compromised by the additional weight of ABS, especially as it is unsprung weight. They is no doubt that it would make the Elise a safer car but, for now it is not an option.
There are various misconceptions about ABS. The first is that a good driver can stop a car quicker without ABS. In both a 'stamp on the brakes' situation or in a drivers 'best effort' situation, this is simply not true. Modern ABS systems are specified to improve braking distances under all conditions and for all drivers.

The second misconception is that ABS quickly locks and unlocks the wheels. This is not true and modern ABS prevents the wheels from locking in all but extreme ice conditions. In order for tyres to maintain maximum grip, they must rotate and ABS is designed to maintain just the right rotation to maximise grip. All tyres have a Mu-slip curve which plots the percentage of slip required for a given level of grip. For a modern tyre the optimum slip is typically about 5%. ABS is also more effective than a human driver because it can adjust braking forces at each wheel in isolation to maintain optimum grip. ABS can take account of vehicle loading, weight transfer and road surface conditions at each wheel. In a non-ABS vehicle there is simply no way to do this and the driver is forced to optimise braking effect at one wheel and thus compromising braking effect at the others. It is this effect that allows an ABS equiped vehicle to steer whilst under hard braking.

It is also worth noting that there are various types and quality of ABS systems available and the most effective ones monitor wheel speeds and vehicle acceleration in various dimensions. Cheaper solutions as used on by some mainstream manufacturers are not as effective as the advanced systems available."

 

[Ardius]

I drive with all aids off except ABS competitively, but otherwise I like to drive with ABS off in free runs or for a laugh online.
My only reason for using ABS is because it does make it faster to drive but more importantly because hardly anyone online decides to turn it off, so I'd be at a huge disadvantage if I turned it off.
I find TCS and ASM take way too much character out of the cars and generally I feel it slows me down (although in the case of TCS, it might be more helpful, but Ive gotten used to it off).

 

[MrGiggly]

ABS certainly doesn't 'suck' if its implemented correctly

Stealth, good explanation, though that must be a pretty old quote, ABS has been on elise's since 2002

 

[spyrrari]

Yeah, I am not saying that I just mash the brakes when I have had ABS on, but its harder to tell when youve gone past the point and the abs actually kicks on. Yeah, if you put 100% braking very quickly yes it will come on obviously, but its hard to tell.

agree...as i experience it allmost every day in real life,the brake pedal resistance -while braking hard- is easaly controlled beceause you feel the moment in your foot when the abs kicks in (and this is btw offcourse different concerning sportscars beceause they have less "agressive" abs settings than an average famaly car....)and in gt5p you dont feel anything in your pedals(if using wheel offcourse..).............
but this is something i think will be very hard to realise if you whant to mimick this into a dfp or g25 or whatever wheel...some things (like g-force..!!!)will never be perfactly simulated beceause its just not possible(even with "moving/hydrolic" cockpits...).....

but pd comes very damn close
spyrrari.

 

[stealth300]

ABS certainly doesn't 'suck' if its implemented correctly

Stealth, good explanation, though that must be a pretty old quote, ABS has been on elise's since 2002

Probably was a old quote but explained ABS very well.

spyrrari - if logitech implement FFB into there pedal system then the ABS effect of a rapid pulsing brake pedal could definatly be a reality

 

[spyrrari]

Probably was a old quote but explained ABS very well.

spyrrari - if logitech implement FFB into there pedal system then the ABS effect of a rapid pulsing brake pedal could definatly be a reality

i know,and they will!!
what i whas trying to say i guess is that without the g-force ,wich you use in real life to "feel" your braking actions(-you feel when the negative g-forces changes during braking on the limit....),it will allways be a little odd experience...especially when i just came home from work driving my own car and than jumping into my raceseat and fire up gt5p....!!!
spyrrari.

 

[Scaff]

I do hope your refering to the game and not real world because a human CANNOT brake quicker than a ABS system.

I will refer to the real world and state that in certain conditions it is more that possible for a person to stop a car quicker without ABS than with ABS. For ABS to work effectively, no matter how advanced the system in place, it requires grip to exist to make use of it. In situations of very, very low grip (such as snow or ice) or highly variable grip/no grip situation such as gravel then ABS starts to get very confused.

ABS was and still is (with the sole exception of the incredibly advanced systems once used in F1) designed to allow a driver to maintain control while in a 'panic' braking system on a tarmac surface and in common driving conditions.

Differing specifications of ABS, road conditions and driver skill all combined mean that a good number of situations exist in which a person can stop a car quicker without ABS than with it.


However I have to point out that to a degree this conversation has (understandably) turned to how quickly you can stop a car with/without ABS. Now we are talking about ABS and its suitability for the track, a place in which coming to a complete standstill is neither desirable or recommended.

One the track ABS is not always the best or quickest option (and this is a total aside from the should we switch it off or not discussion). Here ABS has a number of disadvantages (to counter the advantages that have been posted) the most significant one of which is that when it engages you get some serious 'chatter' back from the brake pedal as it operates. Which is a major problem if yo are attempting to heel and toe and/or modulate the brakes at the same time. The other disadvantage is that a driver may want to exceeded the grip levels under braking to deliberately unsettle the car, commonly done when racing FWD cars, and this would be impossible with a car fitted with ABS.

As an example lets take a look at a top level race series in which ABS can be used, but never is. The FIA regulations for the WRC states that if the homolgated car has an ABS system fitted it can't be removed from the car. The regulations do however not state that it has to be working, and to date not a single team runs a car with the ABS system working in either gravel, snow or tarmac specification. Now these guys are in this to win, I'm sure no one doubts that, so if ABS was quicker they would use it. Rather telling then that in no set-up do the chose to.

Russ Bentley discusses the pros and cons of racing with and without ABS in his book Speed Secrets, and the best example of these he sums up in an anecdote. When testing a a track they ran a number of laps in a showroom stock 'vette. In the dry he was over a second quicker with ABS disabled that with it enabled. In the wet he was a second slower with ABS disabled that with it enabled.

Which quite clearly illustrates that a human CAN brake quicker and more effectively without ABS than with it, it does however (as has already been mentioned numerous times) depend on the system, conditions and driver.

Regards

Scaff

 

[GT Pro]

But don't pretty much ALL cars these days come equipped with the ABS? Therefore having ABS off can be considered less realistic?

 

[Scaff]

But don't pretty much ALL cars these days come equipped with the ABS? Therefore having ABS off can be considered less realistic?

A point which has already been mentioned and discussed a number of times in this thread.

While it is true than almost all road cars come with ABS as standard these days, it not uncommon to switch it off or disable it for track days and/or racing. In terms of overall realism its no different from changing anything on the QTS screen. Lets be honest pulling the ABS fuse is a much easier modification to carry out on a car than changing the gear ratios.


Scaff