AC Porsches vs. RL Porsches (Rear Engined)

[Slush]

Can someone please explain throttle-steer to me like I’m ten?


I’m a middle-aged out of shape Dane with mediocre reflexes. There are two cars in my garage: A 1975 Porsche 911 with a 3.2 short-stroke engine. I have driven the car at hill climbs, track days and sprint events. This spring I got my racing licens and have taken part in three race events in a fully race prepared Mazda Miata. Generally, I consider myself an inexperienced and mediocre driver with more absence of fear than actual skill.


I’ve always been into video games, so naturally I’ve bought a Logitech G25 wheel, pedals and shifter set to get to learn track layouts and upgrade my skills.


The last few days I’ve been trying my luck with the Yellowbird to master the throttle-steer technique. It typically goes like this:


1. I lower the boost to 0 % and put on street legal tires with less grip.

2. I try to induce understeer by turning into the first corner with too much speed.

3. With the wheel at full lock, I lift the throttle, but my Yellowbird just ploughs straight on. The tail will not come out.

4. I floor the pedal, hoping it will bring the tail out, but the damn thing continues straight on.

5. I smash into the concrete barrier.

6. Reset and repeat.


What am I doing wrong here? What’s the step by step way to approach a corner, turn in, induce lift-off oversteer and come out a hero?


Thanks!

 

[panjandrum]

3. With the wheel at full lock, I lift the throttle, but my Yellowbird just ploughs straight on. The tail will not come out.

4. I floor the pedal, hoping it will bring the tail out, but the damn thing continues straight on.

5. I smash into the concrete barrier.

6. Reset and repeat.


What am I doing wrong here? What’s the step by step way to approach a corner, turn in, induce lift-off oversteer and come out a hero?


Thanks!

At first glance, your problem is probably having the wheel at full lock (also maybe exacerbated by way too much speed?). In order for this to work properly there has to be some weight-transfer along with at least a little bit of turn-in in the first place. Generally, you won't get much (or any) lift-off oversteer, for example, in a straight line, or on a surface where there is so little front-end grip that essentially zero weight transfer happens (on ice, for example). You don't want the wheel to be anywhere near full-lock. Scrubbing the the tires like that causes them to have extremely little grip. (Tip from, IIRC, the "Going Faster" series of books: Tire-angle, slip, and grip are a complex relationship. Next time you are understeering into a corner and hear the fronts complaining as they slide, instead of turning the wheel *more*, try coming back a little towards "straight". You can actually regain grip and increase turn-in. It's one of the least intuitive things to do while driving, but once you figure it out it does work. But it ONLY works if the reason you are understeering is because you have too much steering-angle in the first place.) You also might want to try a different tire/track surface combo to find what works well for you, and then changing those as you get better. (Try going grippier for now, reduce grip later.)

Instead of trying to do hero-corners right off, start slow and work up to it. Go in at about the speed you think you should and just play with how lift-off and putting the throttle back down makes the car behave. Then start doing it a little faster until you find yourself going in a little too hot; that's a perfect time to use lift-off / squeeze down to correct things.

But using lift-off oversteer is not a cure-all for simply diving into corners far too fast. It's great for extremely tight-corners at lower speeds (where, depending on the corner, you might stay off throttle for much longer than you would at high-speeds) or for tiny little corrections during cornering where you are suddenly pushing a bit wide and simply lifting the throttle for a fraction of a second will rotate your car a significant number of degrees (general rule; further back the center of gravity, the more a car will rotate under throttle-off conditions, but of course suspension and chassis tuning means that is only a general guideline - you'll have to learn every car independently.)

If you continue to have issues initiating lift-off oversteer just start playing with the brakes mid-corner, you'll quickly find the oversteer, then you can start working on the rest...

Hope that helps!

 

[Slush]

At first glance, your problem is probably having the wheel at full lock (also maybe exacerbated by way too much speed?).

(Knowledge dropped)

If you continue to have issues initiating lift-off oversteer just start playing with the brakes mid-corner, you'll quickly find the oversteer, then you can start working on the rest...

Hope that helps!

Thank you VERY much. That gives me a bit to work with over the weekend. Part of the problem is probably that I'm simply not used to simracing. It takes a while to substitute acting forces with visual cues and a bit of feedback on the steering wheel.

 

[panjandrum]

Thank you VERY much. That gives me a bit to work with over the weekend. Part of the problem is probably that I'm simply not used to simracing. It takes a while to substitute acting forces with visual cues and a bit of feedback on the steering wheel.

I think, unfortunately, that those of us good at real motorsports are at a bit of a disadvantage in a certain regard when it comes to sim-racing. The complete absence of actual g-forces, etc. etc. etc. Even with a good wheel it's like driving with 90% of real-world sensation missing. It's hard. AC is a really good place to start. (Also, there is nothing wrong with starting sim-racing with certain driving-aids turned ON, even if they aren't realistic for a particular car. Maybe try starting in the YB with both ABS and TC turned on, then later dial them down and then out if you want.)

 

[Whitestar]

I think, unfortunately, that those of us good at real motorsports are at a bit of a disadvantage in a certain regard when it comes to sim-racing.

Maybe a silly question, but do you think it's easier to go the other way – from sim to real – than from real to sim? When just looking at the driving learning curve I mean.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Thank you VERY much. That gives me a bit to work with over the weekend. Part of the problem is probably that I'm simply not used to simracing. It takes a while to substitute acting forces with visual cues and a bit of feedback on the steering wheel.

To add to what @panjandrum said, I think driving cars like the YB and other older cars that have a tendency to oversteer, it takes a different mindset in the game to get comfortable with it. When you are driving GT3 cars for example, you are mostly driving with the front tires, and the rear end follows rather quickly, so you go from thinking about the front to the back very quickly as well. It's not the same in a YB or similar cars. The rear doesn't always follow the front input as quickly but your reactions might be still in quick mode from driving other cars. If you react too quickly, you prevent the car from doing what it naturally wants to do, which is transfer the weight to the front, gain grip at the front, and the rear end swings around in a controlled manner if you are at a reasonable pace. Once the rear begins to slip you now must manage the oversteer with a combination of throttle and steering input, but not necessarily with the same sharp inputs you'd use on a modern car. You need to trust the rear end and the throttle and not overuse the steering wheel, also known as, "steering with the rear".

For me to drive the YB effectively I need to get into the right frame of mind, thinking more about the back end of the car than the front, being hyper aware of weight transfer, and constantly managing the slip angle at the back of the car. Without this mindset I'm trash in the YB and any of the older cars.

 

[BrandonW77]

Reminds me of the ancient Yellowbird wisdom: "Sometimes to go left you need to turn right".

 

[panjandrum]

Maybe a silly question, but do you think it's easier to go the other way – from sim to real – than from real to sim? When just looking at the driving learning curve I mean.

If my experience is a guide (but remember a sample-size of 1 isn't exactly scientific...) then I would say it would probably be easier to go from SIM -> RL than the other way around. I think it might be an advantage to SIM racers NOT to need to rely on real-world sensations. Once you get used to those sensations, you might "need" them to get maximum performance, I certainly do. I actually started SIM racing and amateur motorsports almost simultaneously and found that the skills in each one complimented each other (early GT4 era). I turned out to have "a really good butt" and extremely good car-control in my RL motorsports (back when we were still doing endurance karting for example, I was always the person hoping for rain because I was suddenly 2 or 3 seconds a lap faster than nearly anyone else there, even if the same people were faster in the dry. I could drive lap after lap after lap after lap consistently and quickly because I can "absolutely feel the limits of the car (or kart)" for lack of a better term). The result is that I have continued to get better and better IRL, but hit a noticeable plateau in SIM racing several years back that it looks like I'll never be able to overcome (I no-longer get any faster in SIM racing, no matter how much I practice). Without being able to feel the real forces I just can't push as hard as I can IRL. I have to drive somewhat conservatively in the SIM world, whereas I can push right up to that ragged edge IRL and pretty happily hang out there. No amount of wheel FFB, audio or visual cues can adequately replace real-world forces. I'm definitely a "middle of the pack" SIM racer. IRL I'm quite a bit better than that.

But I once again digress. Here is what I think is important:

Make sure the SIM(s) you are using ACCURATELY represent the car you drive IRL as much as possible. Muscle-memory is really important to this type of endeavor. If your SIM has been teaching you the wrong things, that's going to be very bad IRL. The two need to match. I had to completely stop driving anything rear-engined in GT5 and GT6 because those sims were so bad they were actually interfering with skills I had already learned IRL (unlike GT4, which actually did a pretty good job). Muscle-memory; it's a powerful thing.

 

[oneloops]

If my experience is a guide (but remember a sample-size of 1 isn't exactly scientific...) then I would say it would probably be easier to go from SIM -> RL than the other way around. I think it might be an advantage to SIM racers NOT to need to rely on real-world sensations. Once you get used to those sensations, you might "need" them to get maximum performance, I certainly do. I actually started SIM racing and amateur motorsports almost simultaneously and found that the skills in each one complimented each other (early GT4 era). I turned out to have "a really good butt" and extremely good car-control in my RL motorsports (back when we were still doing endurance karting for example, I was always the person hoping for rain because I was suddenly 2 or 3 seconds a lap faster than nearly anyone else there, even if the same people were faster in the dry. I could drive lap after lap after lap after lap consistently and quickly because I can "absolutely feel the limits of the car (or kart)" for lack of a better term). The result is that I have continued to get better and better IRL, but hit a noticeable plateau in SIM racing several years back that it looks like I'll never be able to overcome (I no-longer get any faster in SIM racing, no matter how much I practice). Without being able to feel the real forces I just can't push as hard as I can IRL. I have to drive somewhat conservatively in the SIM world, whereas I can push right up to that ragged edge IRL and pretty happily hang out there. No amount of wheel FFB, audio or visual cues can adequately replace real-world forces. I'm definitely a "middle of the pack" SIM racer. IRL I'm quite a bit better than that.

But I once again digress. Here is what I think is important:

Make sure the SIM(s) you are using ACCURATELY represent the car you drive IRL as much as possible. Muscle-memory is really important to this type of endeavor. If your SIM has been teaching you the wrong things, that's going to be very bad IRL. The two need to match. I had to completely stop driving anything rear-engined in GT5 and GT6 because those sims were so bad they were actually interfering with skills I had already learned IRL (unlike GT4, which actually did a pretty good job). Muscle-memory; it's a powerful thing.

Hello Panjandrum and happy 2017 to you ! Only for curiosity, what's your laptime in AC at Zandvoort Hotlap Event with the Porsche 911 Carrera RSR 3.0 without setup, all stock ? Mine is 1'57"3 (only bronze medal ).

 

[jobyone]

If my experience is a guide (but remember a sample-size of 1 isn't exactly scientific...) then I would say it would probably be easier to go from SIM -> RL than the other way around. I think it might be an advantage to SIM racers NOT to need to rely on real-world sensations. Once you get used to those sensations, you might "need" them to get maximum performance, I certainly do. I actually started SIM racing and amateur motorsports almost simultaneously and found that the skills in each one complimented each other (early GT4 era). I turned out to have "a really good butt" and extremely good car-control in my RL motorsports (back when we were still doing endurance karting for example, I was always the person hoping for rain because I was suddenly 2 or 3 seconds a lap faster than nearly anyone else there, even if the same people were faster in the dry. I could drive lap after lap after lap after lap consistently and quickly because I can "absolutely feel the limits of the car (or kart)" for lack of a better term). The result is that I have continued to get better and better IRL, but hit a noticeable plateau in SIM racing several years back that it looks like I'll never be able to overcome (I no-longer get any faster in SIM racing, no matter how much I practice). Without being able to feel the real forces I just can't push as hard as I can IRL. I have to drive somewhat conservatively in the SIM world, whereas I can push right up to that ragged edge IRL and pretty happily hang out there. No amount of wheel FFB, audio or visual cues can adequately replace real-world forces. I'm definitely a "middle of the pack" SIM racer. IRL I'm quite a bit better than that.

But I once again digress. Here is what I think is important:

Make sure the SIM(s) you are using ACCURATELY represent the car you drive IRL as much as possible. Muscle-memory is really important to this type of endeavor. If your SIM has been teaching you the wrong things, that's going to be very bad IRL. The two need to match. I had to completely stop driving anything rear-engined in GT5 and GT6 because those sims were so bad they were actually interfering with skills I had already learned IRL (unlike GT4, which actually did a pretty good job). Muscle-memory; it's a powerful thing.

I realize this thread has been quite for a while but I was wondering if you have driven the 2.7rs touring mod and if so how you think it handles compared to your RL experience of old 911s

 

[ALB123]

I realize this thread has been quite for a while but I was wondering if you have driven the 2.7rs touring mod and if so how you think it handles compared to your RL experience of old 911s

That's been one of my favorite mod cars since I got AC. There have been a few different versions floating around. The most recent that I'm aware of is the DP version. It's right in the name of the car's folder. It's still only on V7 tires, but hopefully I'll get around to changing them to v10 tires.

 

[panjandrum]

Well, I keep thinking I'll setup cameras filming my pedals and wheel and then do a screen-recording and combine those into a "how to" movie, but I've barely touched my game-rig in months, and won't have much time in the near future either. But I happened across this article with 3 associated videos. It's got great advice on how you should be driving classic RR Porsches, and does a better job than I probably could. If the descriptions sound kind of "generalized" that's because you simply can't be specific. There is no way to say "lift the go-pedal for .38 seconds to rotate 6 degrees when traveling between 70 and 90mph on mildly-warmed old tarmac" or anything like that; it's all done by feel (and practice). The only comment I disagree with, or at least don't understand, is something in the first video about the steering being "disconnected". That's exactly the opposite of what these cars are known for ( and deservedly so ) - they have incredibly direct and tactile steering. I don't know where in the world that comment came from, but it's thoroughly bizarre...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a12274664/how-to-drive-classic-porsche/

A key moment:



What they are describing about how to drive these cars is accurate; if you can't or won't learn to use the natural balance of these cars then you'll never be able to drive them as quickly as they can be driven. More importantly, they won't be nearly as much fun. Here are the direct links to the videos:







(There is also a great bit about what a tragedy it is when great cars sit in collections instead of being driven. I whole-heartedly agree.)

Hopefully these will help those of you trying to conquer RR cars in AC.

 

[ALB123]

What a crazy coincidence... I have those 3 videos bookmarked "Watch Later". I ran across them a few hours ago but I just haven't had the time to dedicate attention to the videos. I've been in the hospital and it gets noisy...My friend is supposed to be coming by with some stuff, including headphones - then I'll watch the video.

With respect to one of your final comments, I couldn't agree more. People are entitled to do whatever they want with their money, but what good does a garage full of cars do if you never drive any of them? That's why I give major props to Mr. Nick Mason. That's him with his Ferrari 250 GTO in my avatar. He ran it up the hillclimb at Goodwood this year and he also drove his McLaren F1 GTR at Goodwood in March and crashed it. Not only did he play drums in one of the most famous rock bands ever, but he's got a really cool car collection. His life seems slightly cooler than mine. Oh, they say Nick Mason often drives one of his ultra rare cars when heading into town with regular auto traffic. Why own a $30,000,000 car and hide it away in a garage?

 

[artem9000]

Why own a $30,000,000 car and hide it away in a garage?

Because it's investment, no one car in the world would worth that price without resell value. High-level engineered modern car could reach $2M due to high engineers salary and manufacturing with low quantity production.

 

[lancia delta hf]

What a crazy coincidence... I have those 3 videos bookmarked "Watch Later". I ran across them a few hours ago but I just haven't had the time to dedicate attention to the videos. I've been in the hospital and it gets noisy...My friend is supposed to be coming by with some stuff, including headphones - then I'll watch the video.

With respect to one of your final comments, I couldn't agree more. People are entitled to do whatever they want with their money, but what good does a garage full of cars do if you never drive any of them? That's why I give major props to Mr. Nick Mason. That's him with his Ferrari 250 GTO in my avatar. He ran it up the hillclimb at Goodwood this year and he also drove his McLaren F1 GTR at Goodwood in March and crashed it. Not only did he play drums in one of the most famous rock bands ever, but he's got a really cool car collection. His life seems slightly cooler than mine. Oh, they say Nick Mason often drives one of his ultra rare cars when heading into town with regular auto traffic. Why own a $30,000,000 car and hide it away in a garage?

Of a question could be: why drive a $30.000.000 car on the road with other stupid humans? Tbf, you'd have to be crazy to drive that, surely no one pats that much for a car to drive it?

 

[ALB123]

Well, like I said. Nick Mason is known to take his 250 GTO or Mclaren F1 GTR into town to meet a friend for lunch. He also has a stable of other awesome cars that I'm sure he drives on occasion, like the F40, F50, Enzo & LaFerrari.