AI Rubberbanding Custom Races

  • Thread starter shnooby2
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shnooby2

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Canada
Canada
I've been doing 1 hour endurance races on every track with GR.2 Professional AI. One thing I have noticed with the AI is that for the first 20-30 minutes, the AI put up a good fight. In fact, typically I'm in 3-5th place and the leaders are 20-30 seconds ahead of me.

I have some great battles mid pack but near the halfway point, all of sudden the AI stop racing, and I start gaining about 3-5 seconds per lap on the leaders until I catch up. Once I catch up, then they start to pick up the pace and keep up with me. In fact, some of the cars in midfield end up setting record lap times 1-2 seconds faster than I'm capable of but they never get by me.

I really wish you could turn off this "feature". I actually enjoy the challenge of not being fast enough at the beginning. I would be happy if I would lose by 20-30 seconds, because it would force me to improve. It's kind of annoying to end up winning every race because the AI slows down for me.

NOTE: boost is turned off. I've tried doing these races with and without pitstops to see if that makes any difference, but the result is the same.
 
Yeah i've been annoyed with rubberbanding races since GT2 or GT3. :( There are usually some races in each GT game where rubberbanding doesn't seem to be turned on, like endurance races in the earlier games and the initial Polyphony Digital Cup in GT3.

See here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/polyphony-digital-cup.148881/

It's just nice having races where there is no rubberbanding (with the ai either playing catch up or slowing down for you) for a number of reasons.
One being it's a good way of testing stock cars against other stock cars (like in the Polyphony Digital Cup in Gran Turismo 3 - no rubberbanding and you're only allowed to use stock standard cars).
Secondly it's fun, and realistic, to be able to have a few battles with the leading AI cars (or mid pack) while you all are lapping the slower AI cars.
Thirdly it's just plain and simply more realistic to not have 'cheating' AI. If PD really want this to be a realistic driving sim, they need to cut out the rubberbanding. Or at least give us the option to turn it on or off.
 
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Holy **** is this annoying. Just did a 30 minute race around Suzuka, multiclass, me in the 919 with the R18, TS050, Nismo GTR LM and the 908 Peugeot in my group with the rest of the field GT3 cars.

First 6 odd laps is great racing but once I get in the lead I pull about 8 seconds in 2 laps on the field.

All of the sudden the Toyota starts lapping 2 to 3 seconds a lap faster than me for a couple of laps then it's pace sort of reverts to 0.5-1 second a lap slower than me.

I pit come out about 16 seconds behind the new leader and suddenly I'm 10 seconds faster on my out lap than anyone....

No boost, professional difficulty. Beyond annoying.
 
The short 2-6 lap races I’ve been doing with these cars, is probably my limit. I’ve also done 10-15 minute races with a few AI still battling me for the lead. It may be the types of cars I use because I stick with cars from the 1960s-1980s. Well, this Is only one lap, but I thought once I passed the AI, they’d give up.

Nope, I got attacked towards the end of the race and even from the start, the AI did no brake checking at all the corners. One of the best races, I’ve had with AI. If this is rubberbanding, keep it coming.
 
After 2 hours on Route X with all using the same car I cant conclude there to be a magical catchup rubberbanding that isnt the AI using any slight bit of slipstream available.
I bumpdraftred one of the AI 1 minute ahead of the large pack and then took the lead and staying ahead by about 3 seconds.
The pack was never able to catch up, the 2nd place car could gain about 0.1s on the 5km straights but lost much more time in each following turn. If this is supposed the rubberbanding I would call it neglectable at all and slipstreaming has much more impact close on.

In fact the AI does back down if it cant catch up, then gets into slipstreaming again and goes for another attempt. Also it seems to only use like 99% of the cars power for the whole first lap to allow you to gain on it.
 
Rubb
Meythia
After 2 hours on Route X with all using the same car I cant conclude there to be a magical catchup rubberbanding that isnt the AI using any slight bit of slipstream available.
I bumpdraftred one of the AI 1 minute ahead of the large pack and then took the lead and staying ahead by about 3 seconds.
The pack was never able to catch up, the 2nd place car could gain about 0.1s on the 5km straights but lost much more time in each following turn. If this is supposed the rubberbanding I would call it neglectable at all and slipstreaming has much more impact close on.

In fact the AI does back down if it cant catch up, then gets into slipstreaming again and goes for another attempt. Also it seems to only use like 99% of the cars power for the whole first lap to allow you to gain on it.
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Rubberbanding is just the term. How it's employed varies.

I think what most people want is a fair start and AI that plays to their level of skill, without being massively better in order to gain a lead, nor be a pylon in order to allow you to catch up.
 
Voodoovaj
Rubb

Rubberbanding is just the term. How it's employed varies.

I think what most people want is a fair start and AI that plays to their level of skill, without being massively better in order to gain a lead, nor be a pylon in order to allow you to catch up.
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Totally agree on the part of wishing for an AI that is on equal level.
I just didnt see them going any faster than they should be able to so I dont understand the complaints listed here, like in the very first post.
 
Meythia
Totally agree on the part of wishing for an AI that is on equal level.
I just didnt see them going any faster than they should be able to so I dont understand the complaints listed here, like in the very first post.
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It's real, but a straight road isn't a very good test for the AI ;)

I've seen plenty crazy rubber banding on my endurance races at N24: 2h, 3H, 8H, 12H, all had silly rubber banding. It's rain and pit stops that amplifies their behavior. I know the track well, and am very consistent on it. When the lead car goes laps ahead of me at the start then stops racing after the halfway point to finish 5 laps down, that's rubber banding. Yet also more locally during the race they tend to speed up and slow down. As I call it, they get the magic boost.

Often early on you get behind a car, the AI signals they'll stick to one side to let you pass. Then when you get alongside they suddenly boost off, realizing your're not supposed to be in front of them yet? Then they slow down again and after a while they fall back and the dance starts over with the next car.

It will happen to lapped cars as well, here's some silly boost action caught on camera (at 35:14)

The Mercedes is already a couple laps down, but decides it's his turn to race. He shouldn't be able to keep up with the Sauber C9, yet speeds on ahead, knocking other AI out of the way, not having any issues with the wet track. I pass him, he passes me back, then at the end of the lap he gives up again and disappears behind.
 
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Does anyone here take into account tire wear and fuel saving strategies for the longer races?

AI may just be bad at strategy, I mean we all basically know this since they will sometimes pit on the last lap of a race. I'm thinking that they charge as hard as possible with fresh tires, but their "ability" to handle on worn tires goes out the window, and they may also be employing fuel saving strats when they are seen to be going slower.

I'm thinking that a lot of what we are seeing as "rubber-banding" can be explained by this... but with that said, I have been in races on the same tires and in the same car as an AI only to watch them absolutely rocket out of corners and away on straights when the BOP should have made everything equal, so I do think there is a mix of crap AI strategy and a little "boosting". When combined this can add up to a frustrating experience at times.

When I did the Kei-car hr. at Autopolis, the little Copens would murder me in straights, but after I won and watched the replays you can see they just murder their front tires, pushing into them like morons and killing their lap times for a good portion of the race.

I think AI is simply dumb when the circumstances aren't perfect.
 
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LSFDRX
Does anyone here take into account tire wear and fuel saving strategies for the longer races?

AI may just be bad at strategy I mean, we all basically know since they will sometimes pit on the last lap of a race. I'm thinking that they charge as hard as possible with fresh tires, but their "ability" to handle on worn tires goes out the window, and they may also be employing fuel saving strats when they are seen to be going slower.

I'm thinking that a lot of what we are seeing as "rubber-banding" can be explained by this... but with that said, I have been in races on the same tires in the same cars as AI and watched them absolutely rocket out of corners and away on straights when the BOP should have made everything equal, so I do think there is a mix of crap AI strategy and a little "boosting". When combined this can add up to a frustrating experience at times.

When I did the Kei-car hr at Autopolis, the little Copens would murder me in straights, but after I won and watched the replays you can see they just murder their front tires and push into them like morons, killing their lap times for a good portion of the race.

I think Ai is just dumb when the circumstances aren't perfect.
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It still happens on races with no wear. They're exclusively all I do with custom races because of the AIs poor strategy, but the end of the race still sees the AI begin to magically slow down.
 
came across something yesterday and wanted to share with you. i too noticed the rubberbanding, stupidity when it comes to strategy and everything you mentioned above. but now i've tried some longer races in lemans (1,5h 2h 3h) with out of my own garage competition. 8x gr1 up in front and 12x gr3 behind. startet at the back in a gr3 911, tuned down a bit to give me some work.

the gr3 ai seemed to try and match the gr1 speeds (or whatever faster car around in general i guess) for some time. when ever a gr3 fell out of a zone of about 10 seconds behind the faster gr1 car ahead, they "gave up". so much so that i sailed by a gt40 on the straights doing 255 kph. at the end of the first lap i was up in second among the gr3 cars. two of the gr1 cars had a coming together and pitted for repairs. when they came out into the gr3 front pack the surrounding gr3 cars sprang to life again and i could barely keep up. once the repaired gr1s had stormed off, the gr3s went back to "idle" again and after 30 minutes i was in the middle of nowhere, 2 minutes behind the leaders and 1,5 minutes clear of the gr3s.

curiously i tried this again with boost and bop off but different time multiplicator settings, different lengths, different rolling start distance settings but it was a carbon copy again and again and again. aggravating. dissapointing.

anyways, just wanted to share. thought you might like more ai bs
 
Sven Jurgens
It's real, but a straight road isn't a very good test for the AI ;)

I've seen plenty crazy rubber banding on my endurance races at N24: 2h, 3H, 8H, 12H, all had silly rubber banding. It's rain and pit stops that amplifies their behavior. I know the track well, and am very consistent on it. When the lead car goes laps ahead of me at the start then stops racing after the halfway point to finish 5 laps down, that's rubber banding. Yet also more locally during the race they tend to speed up and slow down. As I call it, they get the magic boost.

Often early on you get behind a car, the AI signals they'll stick to one side to let you pass. Then when you get alongside they suddenly boost off, realizing your're not supposed to be in front of them yet? Then they slow down again and after a while they fall back and the dance starts over with the next car.

It will happen to lapped cars as well, here's some silly boost action caught on camera (at 35:14)

The Mercedes is already a couple laps down, but decides it's his turn to race. He shouldn't be able to keep up with the Sauber C9, yet speeds on ahead, knocking other AI out of the way, not having any issues with the wet track. I pass him, he passes me back, then at the end of the lap he gives up again and disappears behind.
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Oh man, watching that 300SL just launch past around the C9 on the WET LINE at Schwendenkreuz ... it's just comical!

Makes you not take the game seriously at all if the AI are just given god tier speed and grip at will.
 
timbo_jones
came across something yesterday and wanted to share with you. i too noticed the rubberbanding, stupidity when it comes to strategy and everything you mentioned above. but now i've tried some longer races in lemans (1,5h 2h 3h) with out of my own garage competition. 8x gr1 up in front and 12x gr3 behind. startet at the back in a gr3 911, tuned down a bit to give me some work.

the gr3 ai seemed to try and match the gr1 speeds (or whatever faster car around in general i guess) for some time. when ever a gr3 fell out of a zone of about 10 seconds behind the faster gr1 car ahead, they "gave up". so much so that i sailed by a gt40 on the straights doing 255 kph. at the end of the first lap i was up in second among the gr3 cars. two of the gr1 cars had a coming together and pitted for repairs. when they came out into the gr3 front pack the surrounding gr3 cars sprang to life again and i could barely keep up. once the repaired gr1s had stormed off, the gr3s went back to "idle" again and after 30 minutes i was in the middle of nowhere, 2 minutes behind the leaders and 1,5 minutes clear of the gr3s.

curiously i tried this again with boost and bop off but different time multiplicator settings, different lengths, different rolling start distance settings but it was a carbon copy again and again and again. aggravating. dissapointing.

anyways, just wanted to share. thought you might like more ai bs
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Yep, multiclass is completely unusable with custom race AI because of the rubberbanding we, for whatever reason, cannot disable. I don’t get it. It's our race, why do we still need to be handed a win?

From what I can tell, the slow and fast cars are still part of one "pack", so the gr1 and gr3 cars both slow down a ridiculous amount to let you "catch up" to the leading gr1 cars.
But all this does is make it so the gr3 cars lap at pathetic speeds whilst the gr1 cars can still pull away, albeit slower than their optimum pace.

Gr3 cars do slow down enough to let you overtake them in a gr4 though. I've experienced that much.
 
Like I've said before, AI is in the same boat that sounds were prior to GTS. They are not going to radially change until there is a change of personnel. For sounds that was the hiring of Mike Cavaziel, for AI it's going to need a similar outside hiring to help/replace the one guy who has being doing this since GT5.
 
Sven Jurgens
It's real, but a straight road isn't a very good test for the AI ;)

I've seen plenty crazy rubber banding on my endurance races at N24: 2h, 3H, 8H, 12H, all had silly rubber banding. It's rain and pit stops that amplifies their behavior. I know the track well, and am very consistent on it. When the lead car goes laps ahead of me at the start then stops racing after the halfway point to finish 5 laps down, that's rubber banding. Yet also more locally during the race they tend to speed up and slow down. As I call it, they get the magic boost.

Often early on you get behind a car, the AI signals they'll stick to one side to let you pass. Then when you get alongside they suddenly boost off, realizing your're not supposed to be in front of them yet? Then they slow down again and after a while they fall back and the dance starts over with the next car.

It will happen to lapped cars as well, here's some silly boost action caught on camera (at 35:14)

The Mercedes is already a couple laps down, but decides it's his turn to race. He shouldn't be able to keep up with the Sauber C9, yet speeds on ahead, knocking other AI out of the way, not having any issues with the wet track. I pass him, he passes me back, then at the end of the lap he gives up again and disappears behind.
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That is SO stupid.
 
jonoholland29
I'm streaming a Le Mans 24h next month for charity so hopefully I won't be leading by 5 laps with 23 hours to go :grumpy:
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That's why I prefer multi-class races so there are lapped cars to pass to stop it from becoming boring. Or use an under powered car. Lapped cars are just as eager to (occasionally) race anyway :lol:
 
Sven Jurgens
That's why I prefer multi-class races so there are lapped cars to pass to stop it from becoming boring. Or use an under powered car. Lapped cars are just as eager to (occasionally) race anyway :lol:
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Yeah that would be awesome if we could have multi class. I'd prefer to have 10 Gr. 1 (no VGT) and 10 Gr.2... and while we're dreaming lets add a class of GT3s and GT4s into the mix as well
 
jonoholland29
Yeah that would be awesome if we could have multi class. I'd prefer to have 10 Gr. 1 (no VGT) and 10 Gr.2... and while we're dreaming lets add a class of GT3s and GT4s into the mix as well
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You can in a custom race, just select "choose from garage" and fill the grid with whatever you want.

Only problem, like I said, is that you have to be driving the fastest class or the AI rubberbanding breaks completely.
 
Nebuc72
You can in a custom race, just select "choose from garage" and fill the grid with whatever you want.

Only problem, like I said, is that you have to be driving the fastest class or the AI rubberbanding breaks completely.
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yeah - if you grind. The race I'd like to create would take hours and millions of credits. I got a wife and kids I play 2 hours a week. This 24h stream gets a hall pass as its for charity and the kids are away
 
jonoholland29
yeah - if you grind. The race I'd like to create would take hours and millions of credits. I got a wife and kids I play 2 hours a week. This 24h stream gets a hall pass as its for charity and the kids are away
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Ah yeah aye that's fair enough. Can't get away from that.

I imagine those AI problems are what's making them omit it from being a choosable category. Can shy away from problems if you can blame it on the players decisions, but you're culpable if you offer an option thats fundamentally broken.
 
I have done a lot of testing to conclude there is no rubber banding, in the way we think there is rubber banding. The AI simply gives up if it falls behind by a certain percentage or if it's ahead of you by a lap. This is not an issue for races where there are under ten laps but does present itself in endurance races.
What triggers them to somehow " re-engage" into race mode, I don't understand, all I know is you don't want the slow or fast car's in the custom race, you want a tight grouping, if there is a rabbit the entire field slows down, and if there is a slow car the field also slows down. This is where I think some of you guys may think the AI just randomly slows down, either you or one of the AI got too far ahead or fell too far behind, I honestly think it's a glitch.
The slipstream is also glitched, the car's get stuck behind slow cars and are unable to pass, the odd thing is the car behind the stuck car DOES pass the linked bozo's .
Also turning boost on tends to make things a lot better as it keeps you and the AI within that threshold.
Also, the Mercedes video is disingenuous, you are at like 90% throttle and just spun out before meaning the AI slows down for the yellow.

The only way to get good races is to make a small roster with 10 or less car's and have them be within 6 seconds of first in a 5-lap race, if not you will pretty much guarantee you will trigger the sleepy AI . Also Trail mountain just has BAD AI pathing.
 
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Nebuc72
Means when the AI slow down when you're behind to let you catch up, and speed up when you're ahead to catch up.

We can disable the speed up, but not the slow down part. Which is weird.
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Ahhh, thanks. I noticed this on the suzuka gt3 race.
 
Samus
Like I've said before, AI is in the same boat that sounds were prior to GTS. They are not going to radially change until there is a change of personnel. For sounds that was the hiring of Mike Cavaziel, for AI it's going to need a similar outside hiring to help/replace the one guy who has being doing this since GT5.
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...inevitably thinking of geoff crammond... yes please!
 

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