America - The Official Thread

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The US embassy in Stockholm has sent a letter and a contract to the city of Stockholm requiring them to promise not to promote equality, diversity and inclusion. Bizarre, pathetic and utterly stupid. First because the city would never agree to it. Second because Stockholm doesn't need the US embassy so they don't have any leverage. Third because the embassy needs Stockholm, so if they decide to cancel relations with the city because of this they are only shooting themselves in the foot. Fourth because this shows that Trump has apparently no understanding of what an embassy is or does.
 
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The US embassy in Stockholm has sent a letter and a contract to the city of Stockholm requiring them to promise not to promote equality, diversity and inclusion. Bizarre, pathetic and utterly stupid. First because the city would never agree to it. Second because Stockholm doesn't need the US embassy so they don't have any leverage. Third because the embassy needs Stockholm, so if they decide to cancel relations with the city because of this they are only shooting themselves in the foot. Fourth because this shows that Trump has apparently no understanding of what an embassy is or does.
Not sure whether this is gunboat diplomacy or dumbboat diplomacy on the part of Dag Hammarskjölds väg's.
 
How unsurprising Trump's campaign went from, "We're going to stop supporting & worrying about other countries. America First" to "We're going to threaten to take over multiple countries & they need to comply to our culture war".
 
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I love how Trump was told by Mark Carney, “Canada… it’s not for sale, won’t be for sale.. ever!”. :lol:

Dumold then says, “…never say never.” :lol:
 
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According to Trump, the USA have bombed the Houthis into submission. They will stop attacking ships in the Red Sea if the US please can stop the bombing.

Donald Trump said the US would stop attacking the Houthis in Yemen because the group had "capitulated", as Oman confirmed a "ceasefire" had been reached with the Iran-backed group for it to stop targeting shipping in the Red Sea.

"[The Houthis] just don't want to fight, and we will honour that and we will stop the bombings, and they have capitulated," he said, speaking alongside Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney in the White House.

Shortly afterwards the Omani foreign minister posted that the deal meant neither side would target the other, "ensuring freedom of navigation and the smooth flow of international commercial shipping".

The Houthis have yet to comment.


BBC
 
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According to Trump, the USA have bombed the Houthis into submission. They will stop attacking ships in the Red Sea if the US please can stop the bombing.

Donald Trump said the US would stop attacking the Houthis in Yemen because the group had "capitulated", as Oman confirmed a "ceasefire" had been reached with the Iran-backed group for it to stop targeting shipping in the Red Sea.

"[The Houthis] just don't want to fight, and we will honour that and we will stop the bombings, and they have capitulated," he said, speaking alongside Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney in the White House.

Shortly afterwards the Omani foreign minister posted that the deal meant neither side would target the other, "ensuring freedom of navigation and the smooth flow of international commercial shipping".

The Houthis have yet to comment.


BBC
Which Houthis though? Are any available to comment?
 
Just hearing the snippets of the conversation makes me think Trump is about as lost as he claims Biden was.
Sad thing is, he’ll never admit to anything. Might not ever see a jail cell. I’d prefer he just go away.
 
That's not what an echo chamber is.

Echo chambers require an active component, wherein participants are shielded from contrary points of view.
That's not how I see it. There are so many online forums, blogs, websites where the comments are completely one-sided. Algorithms reinforce that. There doesn't have to be any deliberate "shielding" going on.

I suspect that there are many "modern conservatives" among GTPLanet members but I also that members with conservative viewpoints have become simply intimidated from posting comments. It may be comforting to have one's own point of view continually reinforced in the light of the insanity of the Trump regime, but I'm not sure that it's particularly helpful. Somewhere along the way it's going to become necessary to change the viewpoint of at least some Trump supporters.
 
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That's not how I see it.
Then you are redefining terminology as you see fit and further conversation is pointless.

Not feeling comfortable sharing one's opinion in a given arena is not the same at all as an echo chamber, because an echo chamber requires active suppression of opinions and thoughts contrary to the content of the chamber (of which you literally give an example in denying it).

Moderation is also not a subject for public discussion - your own or anyone else's. If you wish to discuss moderation, contact the site staff privately. If you see messages you believe breach the Acceptable Use Policy then report them.
 
That's not how I see it. There are so many online forums, blogs, websites where the comments are completely one-sided. Algorithms reinforce that. There doesn't have to be any deliberate "shielding" going on.
Maybe I'm missing something, however it's my impression that GTPlanet's "algorithms" consist of listing posts chronologically. And that's the end of it. I don't think that what I post or read on GTPlanet has any impact on what the website presents to me.

Which is exactly why I choose to interact with the GTPlanet forums.

But like I said, I could be wrong and GTPlanet may have have been fooling me, and if so, would somebody enlighten me please.
 
Since this is tied to the CDC I wonder if Mr. Brainworm himself is pushing this or is coming from somewhere else.
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I’m just trying to understand how the people that are supposed to follow the law are themselves not upholding the law and most of all are afraid of the law… the law(s) that are to protect everyone!
You say that, but there's two very different interpretations of what the law is for. One is what you say, it's supposed to be to protect everyone and be for the overall benefit of society.

The other is that the law exists as a tool that those in power use to control others. Law doesn't apply to the King, whatever the King does is God's will and the law only exists for those people beneath the King. Of course, if you weren't religious you might think that this means that the King is just a Supreme Dictator who enforces arbitrary rules on everyone else through force of arms.

In some ways, capitalism has taken the place that religion once occupied in society.
So does that mean because the President invited them, they can be people who can show up carrying weapons?
They can be rapists and murderers. Some of them might even be good people. But I wouldn't hold your breath on that last one.
Just hearing the snippets of the conversation makes me think Trump is about as lost as he claims Biden was.
He is, it's just that his normal behaviour is not that far from unhinged grandpa ranting at clouds behaviour so it's kinda hard to tell.
Biden went from fairly lucid and well spoken to "someone wipe grandpa's drool off the mic please", so it was more visibly obvious.
That's not how I see it. There are so many online forums, blogs, websites where the comments are completely one-sided. Algorithms reinforce that.
Are the algorithms in the room with us right now? GTPlanet is an old school forum where we specifically don't have that, it's one of the nice things about it.
I suspect that there are many "modern conservatives" among GTPLanet members but I also that members with conservative viewpoints have become simply intimidated from posting comments.
I imagine they've been intimidated from posting stupid comments, and that's as it should be in any place that values sensible discussion. If they have something reasonable to say then they should have no fear. But Trumpism isn't based on reason and logic, it's based almost entirely on emotion and so refuting that would by definition mean hurting the Trumpists feelings.

Trumpists dislike posting here specifically because it ISN'T an echo chamber. What they're looking for is unquestioning support. They don't want to discuss the pros and cons of policy, or what goals might be the best for society overall. It's like Christians in the God thread - they generally peace out pretty quickly because they're incapable of having a sensible discussion with someone who doesn't share the same fundamental assumptions that they do.
 
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Then you are redefining terminology as you see fit and further conversation is pointless.

Not feeling comfortable sharing one's opinion in a given arena is not the same at all as an echo chamber, because an echo chamber requires active suppression of opinions and thoughts contrary to the content of the chamber (of which you literally give an example in denying it).

Moderation is also not a subject for public discussion - your own or anyone else's. If you wish to discuss moderation, contact the site staff privately. If you see messages you believe breach the Acceptable Use Policy then report them.
I just looked up several definitions and not one of them made mention of anything akin to "active suppression". Regardless, why not discuss where this forum is at, instead of opting out of the conversation on a technicality? Surely you can see where @Biggles is coming from, even if there's doubt over some finer details.

I think that there's quite a hole in the spectrum of political views for this section of the forum, compared to how it was in years gone by. These days it looks like most of the opinions coming from anyone "right"-leaning are effectively just "drive by shootings" with no actual substance to the "shots". It's the least liberal that I've ever seen this space, in that key voices will identify difference and effectively hound the people that harbour that difference into near or complete absence. To me, it looks like slyly-performed character assassination, that seemingly manages to deftly skirt around the AUP. I believe that creates the "hole" that leaves no real bridge between the "drive by shooters" and the bulk of the regular O&CE users.

I probably sit in that gap on the spectrum, with some of my views at least, and find that this is now quite a rigid and uninviting place to be around. I poke my head in every now and then, but usually don't feel like posting will be worth the potential denigration. For the record, I acknowledge that sometimes I just flat out say stupid things.

We have all sorts of points that we would disagree on, but I applaud @Biggles for addressing this. I also support the sentiment of aiming to encourage change in people, rather than just seeking to ridicule. Everyone has their own story, everyone has their own set of life experiences/influences to navigate when trying to find fairness and truth. No matter how far off I perceive someone to be, anyone genuinely seeking fairness and truth will most often get an attempt at patience and understanding from me. If thought process is the focus, then end thought will hopefully take care of itself. I remember being so incredibly shocked when I realised that people idolised Trump, but I think that he's simply part of the figurative fortress for those people. A fortress they'd maybe feel they'd less likely need if it weren't for the perception/reality of an "opposition" fortress. Considering the breadth of the views that exist in the world, we're really not that different to each other in here... yet I see such an obsession with difference (including from people that describe themselves as liberals). I feel that a member like me (between the fortresses) ends up being faced with "the non-enemy of my enemy is my enemy".

They're both smart enough to tear me to bits, and may do so in response to this post, but examples of members that I think are heavily responsible for the sad state of the O&CE section are @TexRex and @Scaff. I think that they've both contributed a lot to driving away members that would otherwise be here providing much-needed balance and respectful debate. I respect their brains, but not motives.

Echo chamber or not, I think it's pretty damn homogenous here, and filled with a sense of self-righteousness, wanton nastiness and bitterness. As such, I don't see there being any chance of any positive effect on Trump devotees..... but they're just "vermin", right?
 
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I suspect that there are many "modern conservatives" among GTPLanet members but I also that members with conservative viewpoints have become simply intimidated from posting comments. It may be comforting to have one's own point of view continually reinforced in the light of the insanity of the Trump regime, but I'm not sure that it's particularly helpful. Somewhere along the way it's going to become necessary to change the viewpoint of at least some Trump supporters.
It will be the end of any wellfare state if intellectuals will stop calling out online misinformation, hatred and other bs which is currently being spouted by not only conservatives, but by the mightiest man of the country (and with this country, the world).

I would argue the Democrats should work even harder to battle conservative lies and do the opposite of 'hurting conservatives so they feel comfortable'.

Republicans are making a living with excluding people from society, if they have a feeling they are being excluded from an online discussion, screw that. I'll get my tiniest violin.
 
They're both smart enough to tear me to bits, and may do so in response to this post, but examples of members that I think are heavily responsible for the sad state of the O&CE section are @TexRex and @Scaff. I think that they've both contributed a lot to driving away members that would otherwise be here providing much-needed balance and respectful debate. I respect their brains, but not motives.
I've no intention of 'tearing anyone apart', never have, all I've asked is that members support a position they espouse. If they are unable to do so and instead refrain from posting (temporarily or not), it doesn't fall on me. They do, of course, have the option to acknowledge the position is unsupportable. I've done so myself many times over the years.
Echo chamber or not, I think it's pretty damn homogenous here, and filled with a sense of self-righteousness, wanton nastiness and bitterness. As such, I don't see there being any chance of any positive effect on Trump devotees..... but they're just "vermin", right?
Not a term I've ever used...
 
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Echo chamber or not
Not, because there is no active component.

The rest of your response is superfluous, because it addresses something other than what I said: people not wanting to participate for any reason is not the same as them being prevented from doing so or erased after the fact.

I'm old enough to remember the exact same person insist that the exact same members made the forum a "Libertarian echo chamber" - always big L, and big L libertarianism subsequently proving a short walk from Tea Party to MAGA, despite the obvious anti-libertarian ethos. It was as true then as it is now.
 
heavily responsible for the sad state of the O&CE section...@TexRex
Seinfeld Whatever GIF by MOODMAN

Not a term I've ever used...
Yeah I mean that was pretty clearly directed at me, but as with any particularly inflammatory rhetoric, I've simply co-opted it from them. That's kind of the point of using it. I mean I didn't just pull "vermin" out of my ass. Even what I've fine-tuned to "modern American conservatism is mental illness"--which is so tuned to not be painting with a broad brush even as less modern conservatism of any origin may reasonably be described as such--was influenced by rhetoric like "libralism is a mental disorder" which I remember from college in the early '90s.

Anyway if I've contributed in any way to worthless Trumpers (but I repeat myself) noping out after having squawked "TDS" or "NPC" at critics of their Fake Bake bitch-king, then I'm pretty pleased with myself. I should say, however, that I don't give myself that much credit.
 
These days it looks like most of the opinions coming from anyone "right"-leaning are effectively just "drive by shootings" with no actual substance to the "shots".
MAGA is not "right-leaning". MAGA is authoritarian, anti-constitutional and tyrannical. It's impossible to justify MAGA with rational arguments, that's why any supporters they may have here opted out of the discussion, because they know they can never "win" a free and fair debate. It's the same reason why Donald Trump is fighting so hard to suppress the media, because he knows that his only hope is to deny criticism and critical thinking.
 
MAGA is right leaning in the same sense that it has toppled over to the right.
 
I think that they've both contributed a lot to driving away members that would otherwise be here providing much-needed balance and respectful debate.
There's no balanced and respectful debate to be had about the Nazi and Nazi-adjacent aspects of the Trump government - those things can and should be shouted down because they've been so thoroughly dismantled over the last 80 years as to make any discussion of them disingenuous.

Likewise with the grifting, corruption and attempts to wholly bypass the legitimate safeguards against such. These things are just bad, and all one does by wanting to talk about the "good" parts of corruption is signal that one hopes to one day also be in a position to be corrupt.

Are there other things that are going on where Trump or major conservative organisations are having a positive effect that's worth discussing? Tell us about something that they've done that everyone can agree is an improvement. There has to be something that even the most cynical antifa could say "yeah, good job, you made things better for everyone".
 
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I hate to repeat myself again because it makes me both invisible and seem like a know-it-all but...

If you think nobody on this forum holds any conservative viewpoints, you've clearly never discussed fiscal policy, auditing the Federal Reserve or taxes.
But those with apparent right-wing views or "traditional conservative values" of private enterprise and small government don't want to talk about those points any more because they've become so caught up in, and warped by, this culture war nonsense.

The perception that ostensibly right-leaning members of GTP appear to have moved to the left in this supposedly anti-Trump echo chamber, to me, says a lot more about where the political ground has moved rather than the beliefs of individual members.

I'd still suspect that many of us here in this apparent echo chamber don't all actually agree on topics such as healthcare, education, services or energy and we could (and still do) have discussions about them but those aren't the main talking points whether I or you like it or not.

We don't agree on how the government should be run but we agree on how it shouldn't be run; we want the egotripping, power-mad fascist babies out of the room so adults can actually do some governing.
 
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Echo chamber or not, I think it's pretty damn homogenous here, and filled with a sense of self-righteousness, wanton nastiness and bitterness. As such, I don't see there being any chance of any positive effect on Trump devotees..... but they're just "vermin", right?
Most of those people are not interested in a "positive effect". The times people like @Danoff & @Scaff have tried to present a calm & reasonable argument, it's still been met with MAGA go-to defense quips, flat out ignoring evidence provided to them, or refusing to provide their own evidence. Eventually, they basically resort to trolling with the "drive-bys" & engaging themselves as well in the "wanton nastiness and bitterness".

For example, I remember Hayden chiming in, just asking questions to one of these Trump devotees. When he reiterated that he was not attacking the member, he was simply met with, "I saw what you wrote, and chose not to respond, because I questioned your motives" & then argued that he would still not engage Hayden. Not the least bit surprising from a member who has said, "Trump's not a rapist, just a vaginal enthusiast". And, "Googled wiped the evidence". And, "You don't live here, your opinion is moot". That is vermin behavior.

Then you have another devotee who once said he's not looking to change anyone's mind, but proceeded to call Famine weird for, "You’re still, the only one that’s trying to have a conversation about it.".


At some point, one realizes these folks have no desire to have a "positive effect" reflected on them, esp. when they will self admit they don't want it, so you're going to get someone like TexRex who reflects the sharp tongue & attitude many people have. They have no interest in being challenged without getting aggressve if they see a response, so people online have just resorted to calling them for what they are than waste time trying to present an argument the devotees are going to hand wave away, anyway, likely coupled with their own insults. Because, all they really want to do is just state their opinions that are re-affirmed by their right wing media that's designed to speak to them emotionally rather than factually by reminding them that Trump only presents good things & speaks for them, so anyone "opposing" him is a bad guy who is also "opposing" them. We were the "bad guys" long before this sudden thought we've been too mean & antagonistic to them.
 
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But those with apparent right-wing views or "traditional conservative values" of private enterprise and small government don't want to talk about those points any more because they've become so caught up in, and warped by, this culture war nonsense.
No, but it does mean that if you want to talk about those things you need to clearly distance yourself from the versions of them espoused by Trump and co.

Take small government for example. There's reasonable discussions to be had around the role of government in various things and how much taxpayer money should go towards them. But first you need to dissociate what you're saying from stuff like DOGE, because otherwise people will (entirely fairly) assume that you're just trying to stealth Trumpist talking points into a discussion and nobody's here for that.

Trump and the Republican party are barely even conservatives any more anyway, they're regressive authoritarians. They want things the way they were a hundred years ago, or more. But they inherited the conservative label, and so it's necessary to be clear when talking about conservative topics that you're not associating yourself with them.

The Democrats are functionally the conservatives, they make noises about progressive things but they've shown that they absolutely will not make any major changes to the system. They like things the way they are. That's conservatism, the reluctance to change.

There is no progressive party in the US, as far as I can tell. The Democrats have a few progressive voices like Bernie Sanders, because it's a two party system and there's nowhere else for them to go. But there's nowhere near enough progressives in the party to even start to pressure for minor concessions.


Remember that the Nazi Party was officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party. They were hardly socialist, but they grew out of a socialist party. Still, if you're talking about socialism every so often someone will bring up that the Nazis were socialists, and this is 80+ years after the fact. If the Nazi Party was currently in power and you wanted to talk about socialism, you'd need to be VERY clear who you were positioning yourself in support of.

The same is true of Trump and conservatism. Trump Republicans are (arguably) not conservatives, but if you want to talk about conservative topics you need to call out that you understand that and are not simply parroting whatever Trump's latest brain fart was.
I'd still suspect that many of us here in this apparent echo chamber don't all actually agree on topics such as healthcare, education, services or energy and we could (and still do) have discussions about them but those aren't the main talking points whether I or you like it or not.
People probably don't agree on the specific ways to address these things, but I suspect that most people are roughly on the same page as to what they would like the ultimate outcomes to be. These things should be available to pretty much everyone at reasonable cost.

After that it starts getting pretty into the weeds about actual implementation, and unless you're an expert in the field it rapidly gets beyond the point of being able to have a reasonably informed opinion on the matter. That's why the government has whole departments of experts to manage these things and even they don't necessarily agree on the optimal path. The idea that a bunch of randos on the internets would agree on something they probably know next to nothing about doesn't mean anything other than we're not all experts in multiple major fields of governance.
We don't agree on how the government should be run but we agree on how it shouldn't be run; we want the egotripping, power-mad fascist babies out of the room so adults can actually do some governing.
You say this, but apparently a significant proportion of Americans do not feel like this. They wanted the egotripping, power-mad fascist baby as their Supreme Leader. This didn't come out of nowhere, this was what they voted for. They just thought that the leopard wouldn't eat their faces, as if that hasn't been a meme for a solid decade.

I think you'd find less agreement on this than on something like healthcare. But I'm on the upside down side of the world so maybe it looks wonky from down here.
 
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yet I see such an obsession with difference (including from people that describe themselves as liberals)

The irony is that you're arguing about that in the very place where it's not happening.

Echo chamber or not, I think it's pretty damn homogenous here,

Not as much as it seems, we've just been forced onto topics that a wide group of us agree on. It's this:

There's no balanced and respectful debate to be had about the Nazi and Nazi-adjacent aspects of the Trump government

And this:

The perception that ostensibly right-leaning members of GTP appear to have moved to the left in this supposedly anti-Trump echo chamber, to me, says a lot more about where the political ground has moved rather than the beliefs of individual members.

There's still a ton of disagreement in this group. We just haven't bothered to hash it out recently because of what's been happening.
 
There's still a ton of disagreement in this group. We just haven't bothered to hash it out recently because of what's been happening.
When a greater enemy presents itself, people tend to group together to oppose the threat. They may only agree about the threat, but that's enough.

I suspect that this is why politics and the like seemed so much more civil during and immediately after the world wars - because people had direct experience of working with people that they might disagree with for a common good. That is not something that has been part of our culture for decades now.
 
We don't agree on how the government should be run but we agree on how it shouldn't be run; we want the egotripping, power-mad fascist babies out of the room so adults can actually do some governing.
You say this, but apparently a significant proportion of Americans do not feel like this. They wanted the egotripping, power-mad fascist baby as their Supreme Leader. This didn't come out of nowhere, this was what they voted for. They just thought that the leopard wouldn't eat their faces, as if that hasn't been a meme for a solid decade.
I meant we as in us on GTPlanet who are apparently part of this echo chamber. Those of us on "this side".
 
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