America - The Official Thread

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A range of phrases related to cultural issues were found scrawled on a rifle and ammunition found in the woods near where conservative activist Charlie Kirk was murdered on Wednesday, according to sources with knowledge of the investigation.
They are going to say Luigi inspired it. Probably add another charge to his indictment.
 
Is the rifle in the room with us right now?

This is going to be a Lee Harvey Oswald thing, just with someone who's liberal instead of someone who's a Marxist.
 
When it comes to your second example and vigilante violence, I'm not a fan of it, but on the specific scenario you described, I wouldn't be able to say it was underserved in any way shape or form. I certainly wouldn't feel bad.
What does it mean to be vigilante though? If someone in a position of power, let's say the president of a country, kills someone, it's not vigilante. But if someone who is not in a position of power kills someone, it is? I'm genuinely curious how you distinguish vigilante violence.

I have wrestled with this question for some time for my own philosophy, and I eventually came to the conclusion that there is no distinction other than one of pragmatism, transparency, and maybe, if we're lucky some level of credibility. There is no moral difference between vigilante violence and state-sponsored violence. But there can be a practical distinction based on social organization. If everyone can go around enforcing the law on their own, there is no order to law enforcement and there is a lot of confusion in general.

That distinction only holds up to the extent that the state-sponsored violence is legitimate, transparent, orderly, accountable, etc. The moment it's not, and that moment passes by so often for so many people, it can become oppression, and then vigilante violence can suddenly be morally superior.

This is why it's so critical that governments maintain their legitimacy, follow their own rules, come clean with the public, and make sure to hold themselves accountable. Because it is what holds social government together. It's what makes it worth having.
 
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I mean, that's typically all Republicans.
I mean Reagan advocated against legal open carry and signed into law the Mulford Act which prohibited it. But that's more because black people were doing it and Republicans would rather violate everyone's rights than respect the rights of black people as they do everyone else's.

fpc-reagan.jpg


Reagan was a bitch, actually.
 
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What does it mean to be vigilante though? If someone in a position of power, let's say the president of a country, kills someone, it's not vigilante. But if someone who is not in a position of power kills someone, it is? I'm genuinely curious how you distinguish vigilante violence.

I have wrestled with this question for some time for my own philosophy, and I eventually came to the conclusion that there is no distinction other than one of pragmatism, transparency, and maybe, if we're lucky some level of credibility. There is no moral difference between vigilante violence and state-sponsored violence. But there can be a practical distinction based on social organization. If everyone can go around enforcing the law on their own, there is no order to law enforcement and there is a lot of confusion in general.

That distinction only holds up to the extent that the state-sponsored violence is legitimate, transparent, orderly, accountable, etc. The moment it's not, and that moment passes by so often for so many people, it can become oppression, and then vigilante violence can suddenly be morally superior.

This is why it's so critical that governments maintain their legitimacy, follow their own rules, come clean with the public, and make sure to hold themselves accountable. Because it is what holds social government together. It's what makes it worth having.
I think it's any time a person who does not have the authority to do so, takes it upon themselves to commit an act of violence. It does not include self defence, defence or others or defence of property and does not include those given the legal right to commit an act in a given situation.

I 100% agree with your post, volence is violence from a moral standpoint, and the justfication of its use is very situationally specific each and every time, regarldess of it being vigilanteism or not. It's the practical distinctions you mention that allow me to trust one, but not the other.

But to add, when I say I am not a fan of it, I'm talking specifically about how I feel right now in my current situation, which is as a resident in a coutry that, while it has it's many political problems, isn't opressive and we do have a fairly decent degree of law and order going on. Should that ever change in my lifetime, my opinion my change with it.
 
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The key takeaway from my post should be that murdering someone because they said something you don’t like is sickening. I’m not claiming that he was 100% right all the time.
Should've practiced what he preached then b/c he certainly wasn't above using a Biblical passage about stoning people to death & then call it, "God's perfect law" in regards to gay people.
And it says, by the way Ms. Rachel, you might wanna crack open that Bible of yours, in a lesser referenced part of the same part of scripture is in Leviticus 18 is that thou shall… Lay with another man and be stoned to death,” Kirk continued.

“Just sayin’,” he said, smiling as his co-hosts laughed. “So, Ms. Rachel, you quote Leviticus 19, love your neighbor as yourself, the chapter before affirms God’s perfect law when it comes to sexual matters.”
 
I think it's any time a person who does not have the authority to do so, takes it upon themselves to commit an act of violence.
Like i said, those without power. The people who have "authority" are the people with "power" meaning legal power. The authority you speak of generally comes from popularity, or people who popular people like.

It does not include self defence, defence or others or defence of property and does not include those given the legal right to commit an act in a given situation.
I'm not sure who has the moral authority to commit violence outside of these scenarios. You'll have to elaborate to me who has that ability and why they have it.
But to add, when I say I am not a fan of it, I'm talking specifically about how I feel right now in my current situation, which is as a resident in a coutry that, while it has it's many political problems, isn't opressive and we do have a fairly decent degree of law and order going on. Should that ever change in my lifetime, my opinion my change with it.
Generally depends on who you are in this country as to how you feel about it. I think arguing that the US isn't oppressive is quite a challenge today, and getting harder.
 
Is the rifle in the room with us right now?

This is going to be a Lee Harvey Oswald thing, just with someone who's liberal instead of someone who's a Marxist.
A bolt action rifle as well. Odd choice when AR15s are so readily and legally available.
 
I think it's any time a person who does not have the authority to do so, takes it upon themselves to commit an act of violence.
I don't think authority is the right angle here, particularly given the highest authority in the United States at present.
 
Should've practiced what he preached then b/c he certainly wasn't above using a Biblical passage about stoning people to death & then call it, "God's perfect law" in regards to gay people.
In other words, you're perfectly fine with someone getting murdered because they said things. Yes, that guy said a lot of utterly idiotic things, but it's still all he did. He didn't stone someone, he didn't assault someone, nothing. He said things and that got him killed, and it's OK for you. If someone doesn't like all the crap your mother/wife/etc. has spouted over the years, by the same standards it's OK to shoot them. Or you for that matter. Or does it only apply to people you don't like because you're somehow better than all the others?
 
In other words, you're perfectly fine with someone getting murdered because they said things. Yes, that guy said a lot of utterly idiotic things, but it's still all he did. He didn't stone someone, he didn't assault someone, nothing. He said things and that got him killed, and it's OK for you. If someone doesn't like all the crap your mother/wife/etc. has spouted over the years, by the same standards it's OK to shoot them. Or you for that matter. Or does it only apply to people you don't like because you're somehow better than all the others?
He sure as **** advocated for it, though.

That's the difference between him & I. I don't agree with someone's life style, I don't start calling for laws to be made to ban them and use misconstrued information to vilify them as validation for said laws. He did.

Did he deserve to die for it? No. But, I sure as hell will respect his wishes and show zero empathy for someone who believed anyone not straight, white, & male should be not treated fairly.
 
A bolt action rifle as well. Odd choice when AR15s are so readily and legally available.
I'm not sure an AR-15 would be the best choice; an AR-10 is more of the "sniper" variety of the rifle, but that's not bolt action either. If they needed to conceal the weapon, ARs do break down decently well, but they're not really made to be taken apart for concealment. You can field strip one in probably a couple of minutes, but if you're trying to get in and get out, it's probably not the best choice.

It's going to be interesting if the rifle is a Browning. Browning is headquartered in Morgan, Utah, and it's one of the most popular firearm brands in the state. Utah was also the first state to have a "state firearm," and it's the Browning-designed M1911.
In other words, you're perfectly fine with someone getting murdered because they said things. Yes, that guy said a lot of utterly idiotic things, but it's still all he did. He didn't stone someone, he didn't assault someone, nothing. He said things and that got him killed, and it's OK for you. If someone doesn't like all the crap your mother/wife/etc. has spouted over the years, by the same standards it's OK to shoot them. Or you for that matter. Or does it only apply to people you don't like because you're somehow better than all the others?
Kirk likely contributed to the deaths of some individuals based solely on his COVID conspiracy BS. He was also complicit in the January 6th attack on the Capitol, even pleading the 5th to Congress over it.

So no, he wasn't just a guy saying stupid stuff; he was a guy who was actively contributing to violence and death. Does that mean he deserved to die? Probably not, but at a bare minimum, he was a traitor to the nation and should be punished the way traitors are.
 
In other words, you're perfectly fine with someone getting murdered because they said things.
It doesn't actually matter how anyone feels about the rat bitch being dead because the rat bitch is still dead. Violent action may or may not be wrong, with the likelihood of it being wrong increasing as it's removed from imminent physical threat, but thinking mean things is not.
 
I'm not sure who has the moral authority to commit violence outside of these scenarios. You'll have to elaborate to me who has that ability and why they have it.
I'm not talking about the morals of it, rather that I don't count people committing an act of violence in self defence, or defence of another person or property as vigilante violence. The difference between violence comitted by authority and vigilante violence is purely practical, as you put it. But if the practical benefit is not there because it's being abused for example, and used against the people to opress, then vigilante violence may well become the practical option at some point. Where I am, it certainly isn't close to that, and I hope it never gets close in my lifetime.

I can't comment specifically on what day to day life is like in America, I've only visited as a tourist a few times, but I understand why many people don't like the semi-sentient tupee in charge. As an outside observer though, I'd say get on the campaigns to make sure he doesn't get voted in next time, rather than commit acts of violence. If the government prevents you from doing that in some way, then there's a good argument for being opressed.
 
I'm not sure an AR-15 would be the best choice; an AR-10 is more of the "sniper" variety of the rifle, but that's not bolt action either. If they needed to conceal the weapon, ARs do break down decently well, but they're not really made to be taken apart for concealment. You can field strip one in probably a couple of minutes, but if you're trying to get in and get out, it's probably not the best choice.

It's going to be interesting if the rifle is a Browning. Browning is headquartered in Morgan, Utah, and it's one of the most popular firearm brands in the state. Utah was also the first state to have a "state firearm," and it's the Browning-designed M1911.

Kirk likely contributed to the deaths of some individuals based solely on his COVID conspiracy BS. He was also complicit in the January 6th attack on the Capitol, even pleading the 5th to Congress over it.

So no, he wasn't just a guy saying stupid stuff; he was a guy who was actively contributing to violence and death. Does that mean he deserved to die? Probably not, but at a bare minimum, he was a traitor to the nation and should be punished the way traitors are.
I was going to guess some warsaw-pact caliber rifle.
 
If the government prevents you from doing that in some way, then there's a good argument for being opressed.
Basically Project 2025. Trump is more than just an idiot or traitor. He's an instrument being used to dismantle the US government and turn it into something mimicking Iran's or North Korea's. The US isn't there yet, but prevention is a better strategy than doing nothing until the problem is too serious.
 
Yes, that guy said a lot of utterly idiotic things, but it's still all he did.
Did the things he said - which included hate against women, homosexuals, trans people, atheists, Muslims, immigrants, and Jews and included anti-abortion, anti-vax, election fraud and (subsequently) J6 conspiracy nonsense - cause other people to go out and commit violence against groups and individuals, and did he continue to espouse these viewpoints in the full knowledge that they did? If so (and it's pretty hard to quantify) then just saying stuff is not "all he did".

You can't equate "I like yellow" to "Let's set fire to abortion clinics" as just things people say. One is opinion, the other is incitement.

He had a platform and he used it to disseminate hate and conspiracy theories. I don't doubt that he knowingly contributed to the rise of political and social violence with the things he said.


Weird that they just posted two blank pictures.
 
What if they said "I'm going to kill you". Ok now?

Did the things he said - which included hate against women, homosexuals, trans people, atheists, Muslims, immigrants, and Jews and included anti-abortion, anti-vax, election fraud and (subsequently) J6 conspiracy nonsense - cause other people to go out and commit violence against groups and individuals, and did he continue to espouse these viewpoints in the full knowledge that they did? If so (and it's pretty hard to quantify) then just saying stuff is not "all he did".

You can't equate "I like yellow" to "Let's set fire to abortion clinics" as just things people say. One is opinion, the other is incitement.
You looked at where I was going and just said "nobody got time for that" and jumped straight through the entire analysis. I was taking a long stroll through the garden, trying to coax people along, and you just revved up your motorcycle and kicked up dirt didn't you?

:lol:

I'm good with it.
 
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please stop using this type of bad-faith phrases that you likely learned from some random echo chamber, terms like this are used to disqualify arguments, and to me is the left-wing equivalent of the right-wing argumentation of use someone sexuality/condition/nationality to disqualify his ideas, its annoying and counter-productive...
It's not used to disqualify your ideas though, it's used to demonstrate (in good faith) that your ideas are wrong and misguided and it also tells you precisely why they are wrong and misguided. You're claiming some equivalency between the belief among some conservatives that they are being persecuted and their actual persecution of others. It's like claiming that the idea of a sheep is just as real as an actual sheep.
 
I was going to guess some warsaw-pact caliber rifle.
It's a .30 Mauser....which is weird. That means it's not a .30-06 since they are different rounds and .30 Mauser rounds are the typical ammunition for a Mauser C96 pistol. I really don't think the dude was shooting with a Mauser Gewehr 98, but maybe I guess? Also a Venezuelan FN 24 uses that round.

Someone with more firearm knowledge than me, please chime in though.
 
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