Analysing the AI behaviour and performance in GT6

[Samus]

Copying this from another thread to save the moderators the hassle. So without getting into too much history in another thread we were discussing if it was possible to have a competetive race with the AI in Gran Turismo 6. @Tenacious D claimed that you could, and said he'd had several good races with the AI in which he'd lost as evidence of this. He provided the replay files of these races for anyone to analyse:

So anyhow, here are my replays, hopefully. All in their proper folders and whatnot. If not whatnot, let me know and I'll see if I can sort things out. And if you're lucky, you'll se me tooting around a track in my VWs against race cars and getting flogged. Humor, narf.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cdq3tc87ejpv5xe/Replay-1.zip

So far me and @Johnnypenso have analysed some of these replays. Here are our findings so far:

Okay that worked. I left the USB in the PS3 and was able to download it from the USB into the Replay Gallery. I watched one race, 430 Scuderia at Motegi against a field of race cars. Putting aside the fact that @Tenacious D cakewalked through most of the field of full fledged race cars on the same tires in a street car by both out cornering and out accelerating them, here's what stood out to me.

Lap 2

AI Leader2 - 2:01
TenD - 2:04

So we know the AI can run at around 2:00 pace but all of a sudden on lap 3 he's forgotten when to brake, can't find an apex and is uncertain when to hit the throttle. So...

Lap 3

AI Leader - 2:11 (10 seconds slower than lap 2)
TenD - 2:03

By now TenD is up through most of the field but still not in first place yet...so...

Lap 4

AI Leader - 2:11 (again 10 seconds slower than lap 2)
TenD - 2:05.6

By now TenD has caught the leader and a battle ensues and all of a sudden the leader can find an apex and remembers how the throttle and brakes work so...

Lap 5

AI Leader - 2:05
TenD - 2:04

I'm sure it's debatable, but the AI was behind TenD exiting the last corner and appear to lift briefly before pulling out to make a failed pass attempt at the line.

Make of it what you will, to me that's not racing. The leader simply slowed his pace by 20 seconds in the middle of the race to let the player catch up and then when he caught up he put up a half-hearted battle for the lead. I'm sure many GT players can suspend reality and rational thought and pretend they actually had a race and that's great for them. Only speaking for myself, but once I realize what the AI is doing and the race isn't "real", it's game over for me.

Ok, I've also analysed one race I selected at random from the lot. It was the Dream Car Championship Race 1, at Motegi. The lead car was in a Jaguar XJR-9 Race Car, @Tenacious D was in a Lamborghini Diablo GT-1. So first of all let's look at the stats, the facts on those cars.

Jaguar XJR-9 - 749BHP, 894KG, 680PP
Diablo GT1 - 591BHP, 1200KG, 593PP

So right away we can see there is a huge performance gulf. TenD is giving away over 150bhp in power and is much heavier. So I look at the replay. First of all one further fact, looking at the data at the first checkpoint TenD is 14.5 seconds behind the Jaguar.

- So lap one and the main thing I notice is how cautiously TenD is driving, he's very smooth and not aggressive in his driving style. Little oversteer etc. Despite this he blows by the first AI cars, flying around the outside of many with ease and ends lap 1 from 14th to 8th, a 1.53.8.

- Lap two is more of the same, easy passes with no effort despite fairly cautious driving. 1.51, he's up to 5th.

- By the end of lap three he's made two more fairly simple passes and ends it in 3rd, a 1.53.7.

- On lap four he's again, very cautious with the throttle. As he was going around the outside of a Nissan I believe he backed off and hit the brakes when putting his foot down would have got him past sooner. Despite this he ends the lap in 2nd on a 1.52.9.

- Final lap is spent attacking the lead Jaguar, he loses distance on the straight but is able to easily outbrake into the corners to make a pass into the lead, at turn 11, the 90 degree right hander. He takes the last few corners in a normal manner but doesn't really defend and coming out of the last corner pretty slowly. The Jaguar uses it's superior power to pip him on the line by a tenth or so, a final lap time of 1.51.1.

Race Summary

TenD finished second because of two main reasons, his somewhat timid, cautious driving style and the fact the AI was significantly faster on the straights, because of the higher power.

My attempt

- Out of curiosity following this I decided to try the race myself. I hadn't played the game at all for weeks and I didn't own the Lambo, so I went and bought it. Did nothing to it, went in stock and blind. I drove with a DS3, all aids off except ABS1. I don't know how you drove. I made sure the Jag was in first but obviously the entire field wasn't identical. First lap was a struggle getting used to the car and track, ended with a 1.55.1 in 9th, so a little behind TenD at this point.

- Second lap got better into the flow, a 1.50.9 and I'm in 5th, same as TenD (but faster lap) and same experience, flying past the AI with no trouble, usually around the outside.

- Third lap is a 1.51.9 and I'm up to third, again matching TenD in position but faster lap.

- Fourth lap is a 1.51.5 and I'm 1st on the home straight but passed by the Mercedes (Which passes the Jaguar) in a very similar manner to TenD, outpowered, and just end the lap in 2nd.

- I very easily pass the Merc in turn 1 to take the lead and spend the rest of the lap defending fairly (IMO). I take a defensive line on the straight where he catches up but fly away in the corners. I end the final lap with a 1.50.1 and finish 1st, a few tenths ahead of the Merc. Final race time 9.19.

Of course it would only be fair to share my replay file, so here you go - https://mega.co.nz/#!hUEyFbYY!SlK9YY5qBAxadwQWZh9859kNqyoBveI1-5HNpRrh8xI

I personally believe I drove fairly, there were a couple of bumps but nothing over the line IMO. If you have different thoughts on my race I'd be happy to hear them.

Final thoughts

So yes, I agree with you on one aspect TenD, the AI do not always let you win. Absolutely they wanted to win those races.

However I personally would not call that real racing and I do not find it fun. The only reason it was remotely close is because of the power advantage the AI had over us. They were painfully slow in the corners making any overtaking simple, with no challenge. I had to defend slightly on the final lap but the AI braked so early and were so slow in the corners it was no real challenge to keep the win, and I didn't find the experience particularly fun. I blasted past the AI with relative ease driving a new car for the first time in months and so did you. As I say you only lost because the Jaguar had so much more power and outdid you on the final straight, plus I personally thought your driving was a little timid. That isn't a slight on you before you think it is, I accept we're all at a different skill level and all drive differently. I'm certainly nowhere near the best drivers, and you're not awfully slow.

I did actually find that analysis and comparison very interesting though, truly, it does show how different people play the game and how their skill greatly affects the outcome when there is no difficulty settings in game. I may look at some others later.

EDIT: I realise I forgot to note the AI laptimes on my analysis. I will do that now and add it later.

Anyway, the laps:

TenD :

1. 1.53.8
2. 1.51
3. 1.53.7
4. 1.52.9
5. 1.51.8

Jag:

1. Impossible to say exactly because it starts past turn two, but approximately 1.56/7 based on simple maths
2. 1.57.7
3. 1.56.0
4. 1.54.4
5. 1.53.3

So the Jag did get progressively faster as the race went on however it was still well under it's potential and still slower than TenD for every lap.

Here are the numbers for my effort:

Me:
1. 1.55.1
2. 1.50.9
3. 1.51.9
4. 1.51.5
5. 1.50.1

Jag/Merc

1. Again an estimated 1.56/7
2. 1.57.4
3. 1.57.0
4. 1.54.8
4. 1.50.4

So again it got faster towards the end of the race when I got closer but started out very slowly, and perhaps compensated for my slow first lap by having a slower third lap but since I got past it the final lap was considerably faster.

@Tenacious D , do you have any thoughts on the analysis? I also watched another replay, I chose this time one with equal cars to see how that went and to be honest without giving a full breakdown it does seem the simple reason you have more fun with the AI is that the locked in default difficulty is closer to your skill than it perhaps is for other people, in both directions. I watched the race with the Phoenix Audi GT3 at Nurburgring, again you seemed quite cautious and I did the race afterwards, and lapped 2.5 seconds quicker than you, even though the stock handling of that car I find awful.

So yes, to me there are four clear points to improving the AI and single player experience for everyone.

1. Removing all forms of rubberbanding/AI slowing/speeding up on purpose
2. Removing the staggered start, either add standing starts or realistic double file rolling starts
3. Adding some difficulty levels, perhaps two more above the current one and two below. Certainly at least one either way.
4. Make sure all AI cars are equal and as close to the race PP limits as possible

If you imagine the first race I analysed with 1 and 2 in place you'd have started mid way down the grid perhaps but only a few seconds behind the Jagaur. However rather than catching it the Jaguar would've performed to it's ultimate ability and flown away, neither of us would have got close to it. Therefore we could've entered the race with a car similar to the Jaguar and had a true close race, with similar performance in both the straights and corners. With 3 in place I could have increased the difficulty to have a harder race and with 4 in place passing the rest of the cars wouldn't have been such a breeze for either of us. Like I said in the analysis, flying around the outside of other cars with no effort is not fun.

Obviously this thread isn't just about analyzing Tenacious D or my replays, it's about analyzing the AI in general. So, let the discussion continue in this thread rather than off topic in another I guess.

 

[Samus]

Reposting my closing thoughts for those that can't be bothered to read the whole lot:

Final thoughts

So yes, I agree with you on one aspect TenD, the AI do not always let you win. Absolutely they wanted to win those races. To a degree.

However I personally would not call that real racing and I do not find it fun. The only reason it was remotely close is because of the power advantage the AI had over us. They were painfully slow in the corners making any overtaking simple, with no challenge. I had to defend slightly on the final lap but the AI braked so early and were so slow in the corners it was no real challenge to keep the win, and I didn't find the experience particularly fun. I blasted past the AI with relative ease driving a new car for the first time in months and so did you. As I say you only lost because the Jaguar had so much more power and outdid you on the final straight, plus I personally thought your driving was a little timid. That isn't a slight on you before you think it is, I accept we're all at a different skill level and all drive differently. I'm certainly nowhere near the best drivers, and you're not awfully slow.

I did actually find that analysis and comparison very interesting though, truly, it does show how different people play the game and how their skill greatly affects the outcome when there is no difficulty settings in game. I may look at some others later.

To me there are four clear points to improving the AI and single player experience for everyone.

1. Removing all forms of rubberbanding/AI slowing/speeding up on purpose
2. Removing the staggered start, either add standing starts or realistic double file rolling starts
3. Adding some difficulty levels, perhaps two more above the current one and two below. Certainly at least one either way.
4. Make sure all AI cars are equal and as close to the race PP limits as possible

If you imagine the first race I analysed with 1 and 2 in place you'd have started mid way down the grid perhaps but only a few seconds behind the Jagaur. However rather than catching it the Jaguar would've performed to it's ultimate ability and flown away, neither of us would have got close to it. Therefore we could've entered the race with a car similar to the Jaguar and had a true close race, with similar performance in both the straights and corners. With 3 in place I could have increased the difficulty to have a harder race and with 4 in place passing the rest of the cars wouldn't have been such a breeze for either of us. Like I said in the analysis, flying around the outside of other cars with no effort is not fun.

 

[Bo]

A lot of research and typing up, good job!

 

[Johnnypenso]

If you look at the race I watched you get this:

Lap 2

AI Leader2 - 2:01
Player - 2:04

Lap 3

AI Leader - 2:11 (10 seconds slower than lap 2)
Player - 2:03

Lap 4

AI Leader - 2:11 (again 10 seconds slower than lap 2)
Player - 2:05.6 Player has caught leader by end of the lap

Lap 5

AI Leader - 2:05
Player - 2:04

It appears as if the AI saw that the player wasn't going to catch him because the AI ran a 2:01 second lap and player 2:04, so the AI slowed up 10 seconds per lap off his potential place to let the player catch up.

So what happens if the player is actually faster than the AI? Well let's look at the race Samus reviewed:

Player :

1. 1.53.8
2. 1.51
3. 1.53.7
4. 1.52.9
5. 1.51.8

AI:

1. Impossible to say exactly because it starts past turn two, but approximately 1.56/7 based on simple maths
2. 1.57.7
3. 1.56.0
4. 1.54.4
5. 1.53.3

In this case Samus was 6.7 seconds faster than the AI in lap 2, so the AI "calculates" that Samus will have no trouble catching him and so decideds to maintain his pace and continues to run 57/56/54, instead of slowing as he did in the previous race.

Only two data points, but it appears as if the AI calculates after a couple of laps or a % of race distance, whether you'll catch him or not and adjusts his pace accordingly or not, as the case may be. In the race I watched, the AI was brutal in lap 3, after decent laps 1-2. All of a sudden in lap 3 he's slowing dramatically for corners, double braking, driving on the grass at the apex etc. He obviously deliberately slowed to let the player catch up.

 

[amar212]

There was great AI race in GT5, it was Rome race in the Lamborghini cup.

Sadly, it is one of the rare examples for proper AI implementation.

Good job on the analytics 👍

 

[research]

There is a devastating video of such behavior taking place which was posted in the A.I. Discussion thread. I'll dig it up and post here when I finish some repair and mods on my automobile.


EDIT: JohnnyPenso found it and posted below. Stealing my thunder ONCE AGAIN.

 

[Samus]

There was great AI race in GT5, it was Rome race in the Lamborghini cup.

Sadly, it is one of the rare examples for proper AI implementation.

I can't remember that one but I do remember an event in GT6 on that same track which put a Fiat 500 in the race against machinery far, far better in so much as it was lapped in a three lap race.

I really wish PD would stop doing that for a start. It's the easiest of fixes. If it's a 500PP race, make sure every AI car has at or about 500PP. It's not rocket science. Don't just put one or two cars in at 500PP and then stagger the rest down to 350PP at the back. It means the player has to enter a 500PP car to win and slaughter the rest of the AI.

 

[Bo]

I can't remember that one but I do remember an event in GT6 on that same track which put a Fiat 500 in the race against machinery far, far better in so much as it was lapped in a three lap race.

I really wish PD would stop doing that for a start. It's the easiest of fixes. If it's a 500PP race, make sure every AI car has at or about 500PP. It's not rocket science. Don't just put one or two cars in at 500PP and then stagger the rest down to 350PP at the back. It means the player has to enter a 500PP car to win and slaughter the rest of the AI.

It was the Italian championship, 500PP limit with two 500 R's rearing up the field

 

[Johnnypenso]

There is a devastating video of such behavior taking place which was posted in the A.I. Discussion thread. I'll dig it up and post here when I finish some repair and mods on my automobile.

This?

​

 

[Samus]

Yup. I saw a strange variation of that behaviour in one of the races I analysed. I can't remember if it was mine or TenD, but it did the same thing, lifted on the straight to match the player speed. The odd part is that it did it on the fourth lap. On the fifth lap it maintained full throttle.

 

[CSLACR]

The main issue for me with the bots, is that they're inconsistent.
One corner they take super-extra slow, the next 3 they take just slow, then a solitary fast corner, followed by one so slow you drive into the back of them.

If they would pick a pace and stay at it, and take all corners more equally, I could simply adjust by changing my car, modifications, and/or tires.
As they are, I can take tires 2 compounds down, but I'll still be ramming up their rear in a few corners and they'll drive away like they should in others.

 

[Bo]

The main issue for me with the bots, is that they're inconsistent.
One corner they take super-extra slow, the next 3 they take just slow, then a solitary fast corner, followed by one so slow you drive into the back of them.

If they would pick a pace and stay at it, and take all corners more equally, I could simply adjust by changing my car, modifications, and/or tires.
As they are, I can take tires 2 compounds down, but I'll still be ramming up their rear in a few corners and they'll drive away like they should in others.

Yup. I saw a strange variation of that behaviour in one of the races I analysed. I can't remember if it was mine or TenD, but it did the same thing, lifted on the straight to match the player speed. The odd part is that it did it on the fourth lap. On the fifth lap it maintained full throttle.

This?

​

That's not with them not wanting to win, it's to do with their collision prevention techniques which make them drive like 80 year olds in Daewoos. When you get within a certain radius of them, or quite often they do it to themselves because they're a bit thick, they slow down to prevent a crash.

Ironically, this is what causes a fair few crashes.

 

[JTB10000]

Another possible cause of the A.I. being so slow is that they use every driving aid available, slowing them down every corner.

They can at least just use TC and ABS. Those alone make driving a breeze and I'm sure PD is capable of programming A.I. that can handle a little bit of oversteer from time to time.

 

[Bo]

Another possible cause of the A.I. being so slow is that they use every driving aid available, slowing them down every corner.

They can at least just use TC and ABS. Those alone make driving a breeze and I'm sure PD is capable of programming A.I. that can handle a little bit of oversteer from time to time.

They almost certainly use SRF. TC, i'm not convinced on, because they do spin up the wheels and slide about a lot.

 

[diegorborges]

I really like the races on the S Class. The Willow Springs and Ascari are some of the best races in the game. Even with powerful cars, it can be a bit tricky because of the fuel and tire consumption. Plus, the AI can be a lot more livelly in these races... The different tire usage between the cars creates varied scenarios. It seems different from the rest of the game, specially the Willow one.

Why all races aren't like these? Like you guys said, simply making the ai cars have proper PP and having a more advanced difficulty settings would make it all far more enjoyable.

Even in GT5, you could notice that some cars had at least a racing exhaust installed.

 

[diegorborges]

They almost certainly use SRF. TC, i'm not convinced on, because they do spin up the wheels and slide about a lot.

Take a look at the Ascari and Willow Races @ S Class like I said, when their tires start to wear they can pull some really great moves. Doesn't look like TCS at all. I even made a video, I will look for it.

Btw, nice thread. 👍

 

[CSLACR]

Edit: - ^^^ Interesting that the long race at Big Willow is one of the ones I found very irritating. In both turn 2 and the final turn they drive through the corners so slowly I can't stand it.

That's not with them not wanting to win, it's to do with their collision prevention techniques which make them drive like 80 year olds in Daewoos. When you get within a certain radius of them, or quite often they do it to themselves because they're a bit thick, they slow down to prevent a crash.

Ironically, this is what causes a fair few crashes.

I may have not made that as clear as intended.

If you take a level 40 Bob in GT5, and race him around a track, any track, he will take some corners closer to the true limit than others. Some corners they take too slow, some too fast, and a few just right. I'm not talking about based on traffic, or temperature, just the naked AI driving by their lonesome, do not follow the correct driving line all the time, and they have random "terrible corners", like turn 2 of Big Willow, where they'll cruise through 20mph slower than what their car can handle.

 

[Bo]

The whole field understands your performance in relation to theirs - and in turn, they are actively changing their pace collectively in order to give the false impression of a good race.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Another possible cause of the A.I. being so slow is that they use every driving aid available, slowing them down every corner.

They can at least just use TC and ABS. Those alone make driving a breeze and I'm sure PD is capable of programming A.I. that can handle a little bit of oversteer from time to time.

How do you explain that they can run 2:01 on lap 2, then 2:10 on lap 3 and 4. Lap 2 is butter smooth but still nowhere near the limits of the car, and lap 3 and 4 the AI looks like a total rookie who's never driven a race car before? Aids have nothing to do with it, it's rubber banding pure and simple, they are adjusting their pace to yours to give you the best chance at winning.

 

[Bo]

They have SRF (because they can carry some unnatural corner speeds, and they are stuck to the track fair and square), and i'm sure of it, but the only other thing they can really have is ABS. Other than that, they're almost certainly aids free.

 

[Z1-AV69]

They have SRF (because they can carry some unnatural corner speeds, and they are stuck to the track fair and square), and i'm sure of it, but the only other thing they can really have is ABS. Other than that, they're almost certainly aids free.

Really? Where? Never seen them anywhere near normal of their car & tyres?

 

[JTB10000]

Accidental post.

 

[Mulan]

Is it same if you choose slower car like you take 500pp car on a 600pp race?
I think in GT5 it never showed mercy.

 

[Bo]

Really? Where? Never seen them anywhere near normal of their car & tyres?

The weight transfer that should throw the car slightly off balance seems to not affect them in terms of gripping and keeping control... the only thing could be SRF, since I doubt the physics engine completely changes for the AI.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, wouldn't you know that Samus and I would drag the discussion off to different threads. But they fit into both, so that works.

I fully agree with his write-up. I do have a few consideration points which I'll condense a bit from that other thread.

• It's true, I'm not the fastest salmon in the river. That's just my style. I don't like "Edge Of Doom" racing in the likes of Formula 1/GT or the Red Bull prototypes. It doesn't help that I've been in a couple of car wrecks over the past few years, so I just can't threaten the track like I used to. Racing in rain in particular makes me quite nervous.
• The cars are all gimped, that's kind of the point though. When you have such lackluster performance from the bots, you do what you gotta do to have "competitive" fun. In addition, many of my "race modded" sports cars are surprisingly slippery on Racing Hards, not to mention the Team Phoenix Audi R8, which is quite a mess unless you use the assists or are a master tuner like Ridox.

Samus doesn't like this method, which I can see, but like I say, until PD starts implementing these suggestions, this is what we're stuck with. Now, about those suggestions.

Rubber banding: I never did like it, and I've caught some pretty bad examples of it in Toca, the Forzas and a few other games. I can see using it in very judicious ways, but I would rather it be unnoticeable.

GT grids: fully agree. I've wondered why PD doesn't implement the staggered two lane start rather than the long chain they use now, and exclusively in GT6. In GT5 Arcade Mode, all races had standing starts. Sometimes it was a mess, but usually it worked pretty well. Maybe this bot build just won't work with it. And this figures in to one of my biggest wishes for Gran Turismo which I'll get into presently.

Difficulty levels: I've warmed up to this idea after getting smoked online by the likes of Mike Rotch and others, who led most of us by insane lengths. This would allow us to find our comfort zone in single player, and give us room to advance as we get better.

Now for the Big One.

Make sure all AI cars are equal and as close to the race PP limits as possible

I have big dreams for Gran Turismo, and I'm one of those who wants to see racing leagues properly represented in the game. It's pretty ambitious. I want to see enough cars - without duplicates, now - for a racing championship or even mini-season in GT7 based around real world racing leagues like NASCAR, WTCC, ALMS, FIA GT, WRC, DTM, Super GT, Formula GT and whatever else. Fantasy leagues too, either made up by PD or users. And enough "league appropriate" tracks to host those races without too much repeating. I know this is a big tangent to the thread, but I'm adamant that we see something like this in GT7, and hopefully a taste patched in to GT6.

For something like this to work, the bots have to be tuned up quite a bit. If it means that they're mostly polite cruise missiles as in Toca and the Simbin games, that's better than nothing. But if you poke around in my two dozen replays, the bots will show signs of brilliance. A number of people have posted of how the bots will fight each other in some races, and I've seen it too. If that can be continued without getting out of hand, this would be ideal. Along with that, there has to be a level playfield between the players and the bots, so a collision affects both equally. It's quite aggravating to see a bot tearing off after a wreck takes both of us off the road, while we have to struggle to get back on the track. Or worse, they continue blythely along while we spin out.

As Samus says, having a field which consists of a hodge podge of cars of any old type and performance level is just too nutty, and has no place in a race. Likewise, a race based around DTM shouldn't find a NASCAR car, a Rally car or a classic racer among the pack. Races based on sports cars is one thing, but league racing is quite specific in what cars can participate, and their performance levels are adjusted appropriately. It would probably be high time for qualifying to return for these races too, assuming the bots are up to snuff.

Something else I forgot to mention, the field of bot cars spreads out way too much. In the I-A Series races, the difference between first and last place can be a minute and a half! That's just too darn long. The field needs to be tight enough that though the course of a race, you have to use some strategy and skill to ight your way through packs of competitors. And the bots shouldn't go to sleep if you get a decent lead on them. Without rubber banding, you should have a sense that the the field behind you wants to put you back in your place. And the finish should involve quite a string of cars trying to eek out those last few horses which noses them ahead of the guy in front of them.

A bit OT, but directly related to how GT should progress, especially on PS4.

 

[Samus]

I will add more later when I have time but I just want to say quickly, me saying you were cautious/slow or anything along those lines was in no way a dig or sleight on you or your driving. It was merely an observation, I've never loaded someone elses replay and just watched them before so it was interesting to see your distinctly different approach to me.

It did however highlight that everyone is at a different skill level and a one size fits all approach from PD is seemingly not the best way to go.

 

[Z1-AV69]

The weight transfer that should throw the car slightly off balance seems to not affect them in terms of gripping and keeping control... the only thing could be SRF, since I doubt the physics engine completely changes for the AI.

I think it's because usually they are so far off the limit, especially into corners.

 

[Tenacious D]

I will add more later when I have time but I just want to say quickly, me saying you were cautious/slow or anything along those lines was in no way a dig or sleight on you or your driving.

You were quite gentle. I caught that pretty clearly in your previous posts, so no worries. And hopefully this will produce quite a rich and profitable discussion, because I think this is more crucial to the vitality of Gran Turismo than the sounds debate, which I have no problem with it continuing.

By the way, Happy Easter to all - can't believe I kept forgetting to say that...

 

[eran0004]

I just had a great (and clean!) race against the AI on Tour of Europe: Race 3 at Ascari. I was using my Porsche 911 replica tune on comfort hard tyres, and an interesting thing I noticed was that I was using roughly the same braking distance and cornering speed as the AI.

I recorded the replay, but it's bad quality. After about 1:40 there's a screen freeze once every second... but it might give you a rough idea about what it was like. I'll see if I can get a better recording done tomorrow.

So the point I'm trying to make here, I guess, is that braking distance and cornering speeds of the AI can be a good match if you use tyres a few grades below the restriction. It's only good if you're interested in close racing though, doesn't work well if you actually want to win, because I wouldn't have a chance of ever catching the Lotus in the lead.

Anyway, here's the video. Enjoy (try to blink about once every second after 1:40 and maybe you'll not notice the screen freezes )

 

[Samus]

@Tenacious D ok more time to reply now. So to address a few points individually.

- Yeah as I say it was pretty interesting to watch someone else tackle the game, fascinating to compare it to your own style and see how you do things differently. One specific I found interesting (and I didn't even realise it until watching my own replay) is that you get the power down smoothly and gradually coming out of the corner once you have the grip whereas I tend to jab at the throttle on and off until I have the grip to go full throttle.

- I also don't like racing F1 cars and hyper machinery either by the way, I bought F1 2010 when CM picked the license back up and it reminded me that I just don't like racing those. Haven't bought any of the other titles afterwards. But anyway, side point to the topic.

- I totally understand your attempts to gimp the AI and have a race, you really do have to make the best of what you've got. The problem is, as we've covered, even doing that the game is working against you to make it lackluster. If the only problem with AI was that they were slow, but consistently slow, you could simply gimp your car and have a half decent race. I did do this in GT5, with some degree of success although you never can quite get away from the fact you have less power on the straights, usually.

Your best bet is to therefore try to power match the AI but seriously limit your grip, with lower tyres, so your cornering abilities are sort of close. That could give some decent, if a little unbalanced racing. However even if you ignore the fact you shouldn't have to do that to have good racing the issue with GT6 of course is slow lapping isn't their only issue, there are the other problems already covered that combined just add up to a lousy experience.

- Regarding the Phoenix R8 I totally forgot how much of a dog that was in GT6! After watching your race with it I decided to compare and I had a hilarious fishtail moment into the first corner at Nurb GP. Really don't know how/why PD gimped that car so badly on the default set up, it's super stable in real life. It's almost undrivable in GT6. Anyway, off topic again!

- As for the car choices/leagues etc yes, we're in total agreement. The random mixing of cars has to stop, they need to take a hard look at real racing and have the balls to take that as inspiration. Yes in a lot of games, usually arcade games, they have the slower cars at the back and the faster ones at the front but in real motor racing, whilst that happens, it's not on purpose. Every team and driver does the best they can in any racing series and since Gran Turismo is a virtual world with no finance or skill issues for the virtual AI and teams there is no excuse for certain 'teams' turning up on purpose with slower cars. I haven't played Forza since 3 since I no longer have an Xbox but I seem to recall back then they used to do the same thing, and I don't get it. They already have difficulty levels, adding lower class cars at the back of a 12 car road car race is not necessary. As I say just doing this would be a huge improvement in the quality of GT career races.

AI in a racing game will always be tough to do, even the PC sims with 1% increment adjustment levels aren't perfect, they can feel like they're breaking the physics and simply programmed to go faster through other means if you turn them up (at least that is my experience). On consoles though the bare minimum they should be offering are several tiers, even if it's just the basic 'Easy/Medium/Hard'. That would help a great deal in catering to more people. Plus as you say it gives the scope for improvement. Sure you will always have the best guys that can smoke the best AI on the hardest settings but not much you can do for those guys.

At the very least there there should be a level of AI driving the cars close to their limit. PD certainly know how fast a car can go around corners when they set up license tests and time trials but when programming AI the upper limit is a long, long way from the limit. In the example I looked at that Jaguar XJR-9 should have been at least 8 seconds a lap faster, probably more (I might check this later actually, see how much faster I can take it). Again I know AI programming is hard but surely they can get it to run a little faster, but for some reason choose not to. I'd hope that is the case anyway, because if the performance of cars in GT6 is the best they can get them running at we're in trouble.

They must have a varying level of skill at PD, either in their staff or QA that can calculate where the limit of cars are when in the hands of an alien (I think Kaz is very good, isn't he?) and then the hands of someone a little bit slower, then someone a little slower still, and so on. From that they should be able to generate levels of difficulty. You would think, anyway.

Once you've done that the rubberbanding can go, the grid starts/even starts can come back and already you've got a HUGE improvement.

The next improvement after outright speed is obviously their behaviour/driving style and that is by far the hardest part of AI. Getting a car to follow a line at X speed isn't too tricky but getting it to react properly to other cars, including the player, is tough. Not really sure what more can be said there, again PD surely know how they should be behaving, it's up to them to get them doing it. As you say, it'll never be perfect but right now there is a huge scope for improvement, especially with the increased power of the PS4.

Speaking of that I do certainly have higher hopes for AI/career mode improvement than I did with GT6. It will still remain my number one decision when it comes to buying a PS4 and GT7.

@eran0004 you did indeed seem to be matched to some of the AI but as you say, with the way AI and races are setup it's impossible to have both a good race with the entire field and challenge for a win. It's either one or the other, if you want to win you have no choice but to use a car that will blast past the other AI as if they're non-existent.

By the way if you do re-do a replay may I suggest using the exterior gameplay camera rather than a replay camera, it's easier to analyse what is going on IMO.

....and I'm done. I hope at least one person takes the time to read all that!