Antinatalism

[eran0004]

It's not.

Then there's no justification to call it a crime.

At exactly what scale does it cause harm?

At a global scale. Total economic collapse within a couple of decades.

This is not well thought through. If lots and lots of people really want to have kids, that does not give lots and lots of people the right to inflict harm.

It's not about "really really wanting to have kids".

If someone chooses not to have kids because they're antinatalist, that inflicts harm on zero people.

That's not true. Other people's children are going to pay for their wellfare.

That doesn't change if it's two, or three, or 7 billion.

That particular thing, no. But when applied on a large enough scale you will see a huge impact on the economy and it will eventually crash and burn, most likely within a couple of decades.

If it is made illegal to have children, that's slightly different. But not by much. Making it illegal is based on the idea that you don't have a right to do that - to create people you know will suffer. Just like you don't have a right to punch people, even if you really want to.

It could be made a crime, sure, but there is no justification for it, because it would be based on a contradiction.

 

[Danoff]

Then there's no justification to call it a crime.

It could be made a crime, sure, but there is no justification for it, because it would be based on a contradiction.

We covered this:

Conception being a crime is based on knowingly and intentionally creating a being that will experience harm without its consent (not a postulation, a conclusion). That is why most crimes (not including the negligence statutes) are considered criminal, because you knowingly intentionally subject others to harm.

At a global scale. Total economic collapse within a couple of decades.

That's not true. Other people's children are going to pay for their wellfare.

That particular thing, no. But when applied on a large enough scale you will see a huge impact on the economy and it will eventually crash and burn, most likely within a couple of decades.

Hmmm, this is interesting. You seem to think that you're entitled to force people to have children. I can see why you'd have an issue with antinatalism if you have that notion. You've been pretty consistent on this point, but I'm really not used to seeing someone go this far. You're literally saying that choosing to not have children harms others - in other words - is a crime against others.

That's some handmaids tale, forced birth, strangeness that I'm not used to seeing people advocate openly. But I get why this thread has drawn you now. So why do you think you can force someone to have a child?

It's not about "really really wanting to have kids".

It is. Even if it's just because they'll labor for you when you're older and prevent "economic collapse" or whatever. That's just people wanting what they want for themselves.

 

[eran0004]

We covered this:

You're postulating that it's a crime, not concluding that it should be. The reason why you're postulating is because you don't want to touch the problem that criminalising childbirth causes harm, you just dismissed that harm by saying that since childbirth is a crime, it's okay to cause harm to prevent it. You haven't concluded that the harm caused by childbirth (if any) is worse than the harm caused by criminalising childbirth.

Hmmm, this is interesting. You seem to think that you're entitled to force people to have children.

Not at all.

I can see why you'd have an issue with antinatalism if you have that notion. You've been pretty consistent on this point, but I'm really not used to seeing someone go this far. You're literally saying that choosing to not have children harms others - in other words - is a crime against others.

You're the only one of us who has insisted that causing harm to someone else is a crime, regardless of the circumstances. So I don't see how you think the fact that I'm pointing out that criminalising childbirth causes harm means that I somehow have to think that not having children is a crime. If anything, that’s your moral view on the matter, not mine. I mean, I have already pointed out several situations in which you can cause harm to someone else without it being considered a crime, so it's kind of strange to see that you've misunderstood it so gravely.

That's some handmaids tale, forced birth, strangeness that I'm not used to seeing people advocate openly. But I get why this thread has drawn you now. So why do you think you can force someone to have a child?

Your words, not mine.

It is. Even if it's just because they'll labor for you when you're older and prevent "economic collapse" or whatever. That's just people wanting what they want for themselves.

You don't believe in economy now? What makes you think the economy wouldn't collapse if childbirth was criminalised?