Any press release or advertizing regarding realism?

  • Thread starter Greyout
  • 26 comments
  • 1,133 views
G

Greyout

665
I am tired of the beaten-to-death retoric claiming "the most realistic simulation" and "just like the real thing" blah blah blah, without PD stepping up and making a claim as to exactly "how".

has PD given any examples of this like Forza has?

Forza, and just about every other racer that makes claims of realism, has stated some of the parameters that will be considered. Tire temp & pressure come to mind, as tire temp readings are just about the sole detirmining factor when adjusting camber. (GT up to now as been completely about guessing and seeing what happens to your lap time)/ Tire temps are also the primary cause for tire wear, and again should be included... (you rip off two laps, check the tire temps, and discover that you've overcooked the front tires... they aren't worn yet, but the heat indicates that you will need a harder compound, different setup, or different driving style to make the tires last).

We won't even get into the tuning options, as its safe to say that PD will give us another dumbed-down modification process which consists of 3 or 4 'levels' of modification. I'm talking about any claims PD or KY has made that indicate specific variables that will be simulated that were not considered before.

For example, I remember vaguely a long time ago that KY said something about improved aerodynamic simulation, although I can't imagine how they obtain the data on the cars.

with so many cars, I don't expect them to accurately simulate each cars unsprung weight, camber/toe curves, roll centers, (although there is a rally sim out there that does...) etc... but has there been any word at ALL?
 
Ummmm tbh I quite the pick up and playness of it. I wouldn't change it.
It will be pretty realistic I imagine though for a game :)
Obviously, the more realism the better in terms of handling etc, but keep it playable.
 
Similarity of lap times for GT4 is apparently quite scary, within 5 secs on the Nurb' and around 1 sec on a 'normal' track... is that realistic enough for you???

Hopefully, gone are the days of playing racing games in a specific car and lapping 10secs quicker as opposed to RL in the same car...

The 'game' has been raised. (sorry for the pun)
 
hellnback
Similarity of lap times for GT4 is apparently quite scary, within 5 secs on the Nurb' and around 1 sec on a 'normal' track... is that realistic enough for you???

Hopefully, gone are the days of playing racing games in a specific car and lapping 10secs quicker as opposed to RL in the same car...

The 'game' has been raised. (sorry for the pun)
Click to expand...
Yeah those times are so accurate, they're scary. Well see if Forza can do it too.
 
Don't forget evryone has to be able to play this game. Having all of that extra stuff would make it harder for some. Sure I'd like to have it all in, but you have to look at it, realisticly.
 
There is aid. With 300 parameters, gt4 can be as hardcore as it wants. OPM UK loved the gt4 demo they played, mentioned it was hardcore. I wonder why none of the big sites like gamespot haven't talked about the physics.
 
I can imagine if there was a game they could make into a totally realistic simulation, how many people would hate it. I think the GT series has plenty of realism in it already, adding all kinds of **** isnt going to make it better for most gamers. However, there's always room for improvements.
 
I read somewhere that some test driver was invited to test out the 'Ring ... he managed to lap within 1% of his best time around the course. If that isn't realism, I don't know what is.

I also read (and it may even have been here) that Kaz went to the 'Ring and went for a drive with a seasoned Nurburgring veteran (or 'Ringers' as they call themseles). He blew all the mashals and the vets away with his in-depth knowledge of the track, braking perfectly and setting lap times that looked as if he'd been going fo years ... but this was in his first few laps.
 
I think someone mentioned more noticable body roll when cornering. Of course, I thought that was already in Gran Turismo, but obviously not. With the Lateral G thing, your car will probably react more realistically during cornering. How can we know for sure when no one touched base on it? I don't know. You tell me. I don't have the Toyota or BMW games, so how can I diffrentiate past GTs to this upcoming one?

Normally, you don't want to assume things all the time. But I think if all we read was true, GT4 should hold up pretty well even if you don't get rollovers or whatever. So I'm going on speculation here. But my main question that I hope to answer when I buy GT4 is this: how can you really be sure that the physics have changed in the latest GT game? Come December, we'll find out. Oh and by the way, I'm not going to call this "the same old GT physics." If PD says it's different and everyone seems to notice it, I'm sure PD tell no lies.
 
Times in game vs. reality in the first place.

GT Force PRO in null place. Alfa nad Omega of the game. And killer of all the prejudice.

Physics in the second place.

Third place for accurate mapping of the tracks and cars.

Other places for everything else. You can't go much nearer the reality with GT4. Only the steroscopic 3D would compromise the present achievements, and my insiders are telling me that we can expect that much sooner then we think:).

Oh, another thing Greyout - I guess that me and lot of people from here could write down a nifty novel about "Why GT game series is a real driving simulator?", but it has been written so many times that it has no sense in repeating it. Just take in concern that "real" doesn't only consist in driving or physics (or tyre temperature, couldn't they invent something more idiomic, OMG) , it is a more complex mixture of all the tiny elements that makes every GT game from the very begining of the series.
 
I think it's gotta be the lap times on real circuits and the fact that each virtual real circuit is to within 10mm of the real circuit.

If you can recreate a physics engine that can reproduce these times, especially one that can do it on a course that takes over 8 mins to complete, to less than 1% then I reckon you've got it pretty much spot on.

What this means is that all cornering speeds, braking speeds and distances, accelerating speeds and distances, rev patterns, engine braking and grip levels have to be the same.

One thing that would ensure that this is correct would also be noting the split times of these laps too... if suspect that they are the same/v close too.

C.
 
yeti
If you can recreate a physics engine that can reproduce these times, especially one that can do it on a course that takes over 8 mins to complete, to less than 1% then I reckon you've got it pretty much spot on.

What this means is that all cornering speeds, braking speeds and distances, accelerating speeds and distances, rev patterns, engine braking and grip levels have to be the same.
Click to expand...

Thats great and all, until you change something. Add 2 degrees of camber to the front of a S14, or lower an integra 3 inches... then what happens? How accurate are your models now?

Will they take into account the excessive bumpsteer incountered on the rear suspension of an integra when its slammed to the ground? Doubt it. There are too many cars in the game to simulate this, and I for one have NEVER seen a picture of a PD employee doing any kind of measuring a car.

I guess there is no way to know until the game is released, but I am not expecting much.
 
yeti
If you can recreate a physics engine that can reproduce these times, especially one that can do it on a course that takes over 8 mins to complete, to less than 1% then I reckon you've got it pretty much spot on.
Click to expand...

Acurate lap times are not a good example of how well the game physics recreate reality.

It would be possible to have no reality in the game physics and still have accurate lap times. Just have the cars do their maximum speed around the whole of a circuit including the hairpins by using infinite lateral tyre grip, and then limit the maximum speed to that which gives the correct lap time.

It's nice to have accurate lap times, bet we shouldn't make any assumptions of the accuracy of the physics engine by comparing lap times.
 
GreyOut
Thats great and all, until you change something. Add 2 degrees of camber to the front of a S14, or lower an integra 3 inches... then what happens? How accurate are your models now?
Click to expand...

A very good point you make here GreyOut... and I can see where you are taking it... however I'd presume that seeing as these comparison times are taken from a number of cars as well should mean that they will have therefore been tested on a number of different setups (i.e. each car will have different cambers,toes etc) and therefore will have been inherently tested in this process.

So I conclude by the fact that therefore the Physics engine will still have been made to take into account all these factors and how they would affect the cornering speed and in actual fact I would imagine that the factors would have been worked forwards so that the times are merely a check at the end rather than working the physics backwards from the time.

greyout
Will they take into account the excessive bumpsteer incountered on the rear suspension of an integra when its slammed to the ground? Doubt it. There are too many cars in the game to simulate this, and I for one have NEVER seen a picture of a PD employee doing any kind of measuring a car.
Click to expand...

This I guess is something that is common to just this car... and I presume you should attempt to minimise when tuning?

C.

PS encountered

Rapidone
Acurate lap times are not a good example of how well the game physics recreate reality.

It would be possible to have no reality in the game physics and still have accurate lap times. Just have the cars do their maximum speed around the whole of a circuit including the hairpins by using infinite lateral tyre grip, and then limit the maximum speed to that which gives the correct lap time.

It's nice to have accurate lap times, bet we shouldn't make any assumptions of the accuracy of the physics engine by comparing lap times.
Click to expand...

Yes but it's blatantly obvious that this is not what PD have done... considering we're talking about the Nordburgring NS which isn't a cirlce and the cars don't have a max limited speed.

In fact your post makes little, to no sense and is therefore meaningless.

C.

PS Accurate.
 
he provided an over-simplified example, but his point is accurate.

you simply develop a basic model, fill in the variables that are known, (skidpad, peak HP, peak torque, gearing, etc), guess at the variables you have an idea about (torque production at any other point on the power curve, drivetrain loss, etc) and then modify these variables so that the lap times match what they should be.

the result might produce proper lap times, and maybe even proper split times, but when you start playing with the variables yourself, the accuracy goes out the window.
 
From what i remember the Nissan test driver, took gt4 for a spin and was able to come within one percent of his real life lap time.
PD did not take his lap time then get GT to perform to the same level.
This was how PD justified the realism of their Physics engine.
there is also a video about showing side by side comparison of a car at TSUKUBA, one real life one GT4 i think one is best motoring vid, and the acceleration, braking, movement e.t.c are very very close.

PDs physics engine is designed to represent real world physics, as interpreted in the mind of the designer, obviously they then have to factor in some elements of real world data, which provides differences in the way each car handles and performs.
They obviously dont design a physics engine for each car, there has to be some sort of generisism (word?).
The tuning element then has to deal in certian ways with modifying the real world data, this is where some aspects may become a little more unrealistic.

However, after having played Prologue extensively with the DFP and the fact that GT4 has evolved greatly in the physics department since then, im pretty sure it will handle as realistically as possible, for a console racer.
 
Greyout
Thats great and all, until you change something. Add 2 degrees of camber to the front of a S14, or lower an integra 3 inches... then what happens? How accurate are your models now?

Will they take into account the excessive bumpsteer incountered on the rear suspension of an integra when its slammed to the ground? Doubt it. There are too many cars in the game to simulate this, and I for one have NEVER seen a picture of a PD employee doing any kind of measuring a car.

I guess there is no way to know until the game is released, but I am not expecting much.
Click to expand...

I think you're the first person I've ever heard indirectly ask for fewer cars.
 
With how much time they put into real world testing of the cars in the game, Id only hope their phsyics wouldn't be too off.

Also, regarding the integra bump steering, There are ways to prevent this with proper kits, for the 3000 dollars that it will likely cost to do a full suspension setup, you can eliminate the problem easily.
 
GTXLR
However, after having played Prologue extensively with the DFP and the fact that GT4 has evolved greatly in the physics department since then, im pretty sure it will handle as realistically as possible, for a console racer.
Click to expand...
I was going to say precisely that. And the fact that using a wheel makes you slower (more real) to operate the direction makes the experience very intensive. In Prologue, recovering from a spin using full opposite lock is challenging (specialy if the DFP is new and you are afraid of turning with decision). I am losing the fear and my times are improving!
 

Latest Posts

Back