Anyone remember ? SNOW : FWD VS RWD, which one wins ?

[land sea air]

i work for snow removal company during snow season and always use my personal vehicle to get to and from the job sites during some pretty hairy storms. generally physics would dictate that fwd would be better in the snow, and for most people most of the time it definately is better, my old minivan was excellent in the snow and the understeer didnt matter as much because pretty much anything thats moving in the snow is going to want to keepmoving in the same direction... the first winter i had my merc 300e i was concerned how a rwd car would do in the snow after horable memories of my parents old crown victoria from when i was little. however having near 50/50 weight distribution makes a huge difference and the car handles beautifully in the snow i never add anything more than what i normally have in the trunk and ive never gotten stuck (even tried a few times when bored) my girlfriend had a different minivan (also fwd) that was horrible in the snow and the rain both, when she bought her merc 240d she was also impressed with its ablilty to climb hills and corner in the nasty stuff. it depends on the car, the technology the car has (espeacially the tires) and the driver, i would say that together these things count for more than the drivetrain of the car

 

[toyomatt84]

But under acceleration weight sifts to back. Steap snowy hills are also better to drive with RWD.
FWD-cars front wheels have to do both steering and powering car forward. RWD-cars are better in this sense. Even if you lose grip form back wheels you can sort of steer it still.

Problem with RWD-cars is that very few people know what to do when oversteer happens.(like live4speed points out) Driving schools use modern cars that favor FWD. So people dont know that they are different to drive. Again first car for meny people is old RWD. Experience with it can be very negative because of lack of knowledge not because of bad car.

Ideal drive system for snow would be of course 4wd with electronicly controlable diffs.

Just because the weight shifts to the rear of a car on acceleration, doesn't mean it's there all the time. Not to mention, it's easier to pull weight then push it.

 

[a6m5]

Just because the weight shifts to the rear of a car on acceleration, doesn't mean it's there all the time. Not to mention, it's easier to pull weight then push it.

Also, is it just me, or does it sound dangerous to rely on a added traction from something like that?

 

[retsmah]

I think it's unlikely that you are going to get much weight transfer to the rear while accelerating on snow, you just can't accelerate that hard unless you've got some pretty good tires for the conditions.

I had pretty good luck driving my rear wheel drive car the few days it snowed here last winter... never really had any problem getting going even using tires that were never intended to be used on snow. But then I've got an MR2

 

[neanderthal]

the one that wins is the one with the better driver. period.


there is no drivetrain that can overcome an idiot behind the wheel, AWD included.

 

[niky]

A better question would be what would you rather have all of the other idiots on the road driving when it's snowing?

Ford Ka's. Or failing that... Smart ForTwos. Errh... Vespas?

I think it's unlikely that you are going to get much weight transfer to the rear while accelerating on snow, you just can't accelerate that hard unless you've got some pretty good tires for the conditions.

I had pretty good luck driving my rear wheel drive car the few days it snowed here last winter... never really had any problem getting going even using tires that were never intended to be used on snow. But then I've got an MR2

You know, I've always wondered why the idiot ahead of me on parking ramps who has so much trouble getting up the slope is invariably in a rear-wheel drive vehicle.

This thread just jogged that out... D'oh... weight transfer means dip**** unless you can get the car to accelerate in the first place.

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RE: MR2... heard that Porsches were also a doodle to drive in the snow, lots of traction.

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In my experience, there isn't much problem driving a front-wheel drive vehicle in slippery conditions, except braking does suck (as it invariably does for absolutely everything on loose surfaces), but you can get the tail to hang out pretty far sideways if traction is bad enough.

 

[a6m5]

This thread just jogged that out... D'oh... weight transfer means dip**** unless you can get the car to accelerate in the first place.

I had always wondered why some drivers slam on gas to get traction. Now I know.

 

[Tornado]

there is no drivetrain that can overcome an idiot behind the wheel, AWD included.

Amen to that.

 

[///M-Spec]

One of you wanted to test it with his cars. I can't remember who it was, but what I do remember is, that this particular member was no nobody, but either a mod or a longtime member ( 2 or more years )...
He might have been a BMW fan, maybe Mspec ?

So here we are, where is your test ?
YOU (whoever you are ) thought I would forget it, but I didn't ....

Yep, that was me. I haven't forgotten. In fact, I am pretty eager to conduct this test myself.

But I seem to have a shortage of snow, given that it's 56(f) degrees outside right now.

Ship me a couple tons of the white stuff and I would happy to give it a go.

The question I really wanted answered was: can a RWD car equiped with quality snow tires + traction control perform as well on an incline as an AWD car with all season tires + traction control?

And how does a FWD car fit into the equation?

The test will involve my car, a 2004 330i ZHP w/ Blizzak WS-50s. (RWD winter)

My wife's Nissan Murano SL w/Goodyear Eagle LS (FWD all season)
My dad's Volvo XC90 T5 w/ Pirelli Scorpians (AWD all season)

I don't think there was any question what drivetrain was the better one for snow. The only question was whether snow tires allowed the least capable format (RWD) to perform acceptably well in most snow situations.

Full report when we get the white stuff. You will probably have to wait until middle of January, though.


M

 

[boombexus]

The question I really wanted answered was: can a RWD car equiped with quality snow tires + traction control perform as well on an incline as an AWD car with all season tires + traction control?

I can answer this. Not even close. The incline is the demise of a RWD vehicle in snow even with quality snow tires. Trust me on this, I lived in Vail, Colorado (avg. 360 in. snow a year) for 5 years with my IS300 equiped with quality dedicated snow tires.
While most of the time getting around wasn't much of a problem except on inclines, and compounded even further if you are starting from a dead stop.
At the same time, I used to have a Subaru Legacy AWD, (all season tire equiped (at first)) that was absolutely unstoppable in the snow. It was quite the confidence inspiring vehicle. Vastly outperfoming the RWD Lexus.

The only question was whether snow tires allowed the least capable format (RWD) to perform acceptably well in most snow situations.

The answer to this is yes. My IS300 did perform acceptably well in most snow situations. Not once did I get stuck, but I sure had some butt puckering, white knuckle experiences.

Full report when we get the white stuff. You will probably have to wait until middle of January, though.

It'll have to be done by you as I now live in sunny, 72 deg. F, Long Beach, California.

 

[Car-less]

When stopped on an incline you will have two options for gaining traction in a RWD. More gas or less gas. With a FWD you have the added option of joggling the wheel to try and pull yourself out of a rut sideways. I suspect that no matter what tyres you use, the FWD will always outperform the RWD at pulling away on an incline.

Note that I have only a few hours of experience of driving on snow, and all of that was in a FWD so this is based on Theory and not practical experience.

 

[Deathclown66]

FWD.
This shouldnt be too much of a debate.
the FWD layout puts more weight (higher percentage) on the drive wheels, which increases traction.
Weight transfer has little to zero factor in the snow, due to the low amounts of grip to begin with.

 

[retsmah]

FWD.
This shouldnt be too much of a debate.
the FWD layout puts more weight (higher percentage) on the drive wheels, which increases traction.
Weight transfer has little to zero factor in the snow, due to the low amounts of grip to begin with.

Assuming the rear drive car you are comparing with has the engine in the front

 

[///M-Spec]

I can answer this. Not even close.

Bah. You're no fun dude Just let me dream why don't you?


M

 

[boombexus]

Bah. You're no fun dude Just let me dream why don't you?


M

Hey, don't let me stop you from testing it out. RWD can be a hell of a lot of fun in the snow!!!

 

[Azuremen]

RWD is fun in the snow yes, and if you have an MR layout, it can do okay too.

The other problem besides the weight shifting and such on the wheels is this. In FWD, the drive wheels pull the car through the snow. In RWD, the drive wheels push the car through the snow. Try this for a test, get a shopping cart, and push it but don't hold onto the handles and push with only one hand. Now pull the cart from the front with one hand. You should find it easier to keep it going the direction you want it to by pulling it.

Its always easier to pull something than to push it.

 

[Powripper]

I've driven both, and yes, maybe fwd is known to be better as far as grip is concerned but I dont like it.
I HATE understeer, and Id much prefer driving a RWD car even if I do get less grip. I'm perfectly comfortable going a little sidways

 

[Kent]

Getting off about understeer in a discussion about snow driving is beyond me.

I guess that's just for the rally drivers out there since probably about 99% of us have no concerns regarding understeer when we're plowing through snow on our way to work.

Btw, I've been blessed with no more snow worries. In Virginia I occasionally had to deal with snow. Down here in Louisiana I only have to worry about rain (but double the amount since it rains down here a ton).

 

[MistaX]

Off topic:

M Spec lives 20 min away from me

On topic:

I had issues with rain, nevermind snow in a high powered RWD car.

I slid the thing sideways getting on a highway in a downpour with 3 other people in the car.

Scared the hell out of me, but they loved it

I've actually never driven in the snow. And I don't want to.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I've actually never driven in the snow. And I don't want to.

I'm sure a fun little car, an inch of snow and a big empty parking lot would change your mind. I just drove down the street and I had a blast. I was going in a straight line, but it's kinda fun when you can spin the wheels in every gear effortlessly.

EDIT: I really overestimated the amount of a grip a car has in the snow though, there is absolutely no grip.

 

[Milliethemutt]

Another factor in the debate is power and tyre width. Although I agree that FWD is much easier I'm sure a 1.0 Corsa is easier to drive than something like a 147 GTA even with a big heavy V6 putting weight on the front wheels.

Edit: Being that RWd generally have more power and wider tyres this could also be a factor. The 205 - MX5 comparison ealrier was interesting

 

[Deathclown66]

RWD is fun in the snow yes, and if you have an MR layout, it can do okay too.

The other problem besides the weight shifting and such on the wheels is this. In FWD, the drive wheels pull the car through the snow. In RWD, the drive wheels push the car through the snow. Try this for a test, get a shopping cart, and push it but don't hold onto the handles and push with only one hand. Now pull the cart from the front with one hand. You should find it easier to keep it going the direction you want it to by pulling it.

Its always easier to pull something than to push it.

FWD doesn't "pull" the car like a shopping cart though.

the front and rear wheels have the same angle propelling the car forward. it's a tire, spinning in the same direction, with weight pushing downward on it.

And even some of the most lopsided Rear engine RWD's, the weight dist. is almost guaranteed to be closer to 50-50 when compared to a FWD, which usually reside in the 64F/36R range.

Front drive cars are also more likely to be wearing proper tires for snow, or all-weather, and more engineering is put into FWD cars snow tires than the usually larger RWD tires.

the engines powerband, clutch/flywheel combination also have effects, where the FF is more prone to having a very gentle driving setup.

 

[niky]

It actually does, if you consider, in the shopping cart scenario, that you are the drive wheels...

And why would they scrimp on snow tire development for rear wheel drive cars?

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm pretty much in the camp that if you know how to drive correctly in the given conditions, you'll be fine no matter what situation you are in. That is often why people who are in their AWD Subarus with All-Season tires driving about like know-nothing dingobobs in even a light rain drive me mad, all while I go about my business in my rather simple Jetta with crappy knock-off tires (I'm never shopping at Discount Tire again...).

What it comes down to is that we (as Americans) drove in the rain, snow, sleet, ice, etc for God knows how many years in gigantic RWD cars until the tiny imports came around, and then someone got the idea to stick a V8 and FWD under the Oldsmobile Toronado.

Living in Michigan, we do get snow on occasion (this year, not so much), and I have to deal with stupid people in everything that they drive. I've already seen a Chrysler Town and Country roll over (doing 70+ on a night with back ice, attempted a lane change, landed in a tree), big trucks stuck on the side of the road, and other "awesome" FWD cars doing their best to act like idiots, getting stuck at stoplights.

...With the advancements in tire technology, the addition of stability and traction control, and an educated driver behind the wheel, most RWD cars are more than capable in the snow. But it is the dingbats that make up 85% of the driving world that must rely on FWD and AWD to get from their homes to the grocery store, no matter what weather may be occurring outside, manage to take their cars and trucks off into the trees.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I'm pretty much in the camp that if you know how to drive correctly in the given conditions, you'll be fine no matter what situation you are in. That is often why people who are in their AWD Subarus with All-Season tires driving about like know-nothing dingobobs in even a light rain drive me mad, all while I go about my business in my rather simple Jetta with crappy knock-off tires (I'm never shopping at Discount Tire again...).

What it comes down to is that we (as Americans) drove in the rain, snow, sleet, ice, etc for God knows how many years in gigantic RWD cars until the tiny imports came around, and then someone got the idea to stick a V8 and FWD under the Oldsmobile Toronado.

Living in Michigan, we do get snow on occasion (this year, not so much), and I have to deal with stupid people in everything that they drive. I've already seen a Chrysler Town and Country roll over (doing 70+ on a night with back ice, attempted a lane change, landed in a tree), big trucks stuck on the side of the road, and other "awesome" FWD cars doing their best to act like idiots, getting stuck at stoplights.

...With the advancements in tire technology, the addition of stability and traction control, and an educated driver behind the wheel, most RWD cars are more than capable in the snow. But it is the dingbats that make up 85% of the driving world that must rely on FWD and AWD to get from their homes to the grocery store, no matter what weather may be occurring outside, manage to take their cars and trucks off into the trees.

+rep, very nicely put.

EDIT: I need to spread more rep around.

 

[///M-Spec]

Full report when we get the white stuff. You will probably have to wait until middle of January, though.

As if on cue....

*

It's been snowing on and off since morning. No accumulation, however. None expected, either. Might be Febuary before we get any that sticks.


EDIT:

Whaa? The bonehead forecasters all said it was changing to rain overnight. This morning I get up and it looks like this outside...

So the BMW stayed home today since it still has PS2s on...


M