Anything Can Happen: TVR Headed to America (...maybe...)

[YSSMAN]

Here is my question:

How do we know that once TVR goes under the presumed ownership of Americans, that everything will suddenly turn to American parts etc underneath? I have read no indication whatsoever that these men plan on pushing a Y-Body redux with a Corvette engine... Plans seem to indicate that they won't change a thing outside of the American models being federalized for street use in America.

...My guess is that these guys would be just as happy to give as many British folks their jobs back to build the cars in whatever way possible, however it does sound as though the American models would be built in America. IMO, that doesn't seem like a huge problem to me, as both Americans and Europeans are keeping their jobs (for the most part), ad we are working together to build some of the best sportscars in the world.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Melling get the top-spot just as much as the other guy, but I don't see the huge negatives in having Americans running TVR. Without having them call for change, it is hard to say that too much change would be required in getting these cars here...

...And by all means, they may pull a "Noble" on us, and just ship the cars to America as kit models for final assembly...

Worked out great for them...

 

[Speedster502]

^ Yes, but would you rather have a Ruski running your beloved British brand or your cousins in America? I doubt everything would be completely channeled to America, as we have a great respect for the identity of the brand as a British marque... But that doesn't mean that we wouldn't build some cars here to meet the Federal standards for sale...

I just want them to come back to Britain as thats where they belong. Even if the factories are in Britain but owned by America I wouldnt mind that but TVR are just almost the meaning of the word British (In my opinion). As long as the make the cars as british as possible then I will be fine. That means no silly Chevy V8's only british ones, Has to be able to go around a corner, not be a simple drag racer like most american muscle cars are. But I am just upset that TVR are changing hands they really need to get settled down so they can produce good cars. I mean the only decent car the Russians made was the Sagaris but even then they have toned it down now. Thats not what TVR are about.

 

[Scaff]

...And by all means, they may pull a "Noble" on us, and just ship the cars to America as kit models for final assembly...

Worked out great for them...

Missed that one, thanks.

Not only low volume - Britain is the sole (or primary) market!

On the contrary, if we include Noble from above all of these manufacturers sell to markets well beyond the UK. Certainly Bristols (while very rare full stop) are found world wide, Noble and Aerial sell in the US (again I admit through third parties), Radical sells and runs cars around the entire globe, supported by dedicated racing series. Caterham's have a lower spread, but are still found around the globe.

I have no problem with acknowledging the low volume part of this (after all I mentioned it), but to claim the are limited or heavily limited to the UK in terms of sales in not true. However once again this could be an argument levelled at certain sub-brands in the US, we don't see many Buick's over here.

I was not however aware that to be classed as a British car manufacturer (which is after all what we are discussing) it was a requirement to sell either huge volume levels or have massive active markets outside the UK. We are principally talking about TVR here as well, a company that was neither high volume or a strong seller outside the UK.

Yes - but not every manufacturer, as is the case in the UK.

Again not even remotely true, the four manufacturers I mentioned above are (make that five with Noble) all in good health. Yes (as I again admitted) a large number of 'new' set-up manufacturers struggle or fail, the same can be said for existing manufacturers in certain cases. However to then take that and try and apply it to all British manufacturers is simply naive.

But "low volume" makes all the difference. The production requirements are totally different, the marketing is different, supplier relationships are different.... As a low-volume manufacturer, you simply don't need to market or price your car as aggressively, and are typically not the only car that a person will own (implying various things in terms of waiting lists & reliability).

Certain for Europe I can't agree in all these areas, yes the majority of the manufacturers mentioned above are certainly aiming at small target audience, but a lot of those are aimed at the track day market. Caterham, Westfield, Aerial, Radical and Dax (to name but a few) are all operating in the same market, one with a limited number of consumers. The majority of who are technically aware and very fussy when it comes to build, after all the electrics failing on the motorway in a ‘normal’ car is scarey, the same flat-out around a sweeper on a track is a damn sight more dangerous.

I would agree that they have a different relationship with suppliers, and not always in an advantageous way. Its far harder for a low volume firm to dictate terms than it is for a high volume firm, simple economies of scale and buying power come into play here.

Having said that, the British seem to excel at low-volume production, and seem to have the most small-market brands of any nation. And the most interesting ones. And the most demand for such brands. To paraphrase a bat: the British are a strange, funny-driving lot.

Which is exactly the point I was making, many people simply look at volume manufacture on a global scale as the only area of automotive manufacture, an area I freely admit we suck at. However the low-volume market in the UK is very healthy at present, just because its low volume does not make it irrelevant to this discussion at all, in fact given that we are talking about TVR it makes them very relevant.

My understanding of TVR (having never seen one in person, let alone driven one), is that the current appeal is the engine and the chassis -- the two things that would most likely be the first thing heaved into the bin in American hands. Now an Americanized TVR probably wouldn't produce a bad car; a "Britishized" Corvette should be quite nice, but I can't see it as having any of the character of a TVR.

Then there's the typical US demand for ABS, airbags, traction control....all the junk TVR does quite happily without. Would it be safer? Would it be better? Irrelevant: it's TVR.

Big, nice sounding engine + mad body + high Power-to-Weight ratio + a chassis that can only just contain it + high level of demand on the driver = TVR.

Basically put the car should scare the hell out of you, that makes a TVR. Could the Americans do it right? Well that depends on the Americans in question, you see I am no more likely to put all Americans in a big box that says “Can’t make sports cars” than I am going to accept all British being put in a box that’s labelled “Can’t run car companies”. Neither statement is true.


Hell I’m not even likely to get all funny about what powers the damn things (as long as it meets the above criteria), after all anybody with knowledge of the company will now just how varied the power units have been in the past. The same to a degree goes the owners and location; I would rather in stayed in the UK in British hands, but I would also rather it went overseas and thrived that simply faded away and died (as long as they stay true to the spirit of TVR and I can still see them out and about.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Famine]

No, I think I'm right.

Crikey. Better resurrect the GTP News Ticker and stick that in it.

Just look at the state of the companies when they were bought out by whatever larger company took them.

Okay.

Jaguar when taken over by Ford: Happily making a profit trading on the marque, while building antiquated designs/chassiseses which sold well.
Aston Martin when taken over by Ford: Happily making a profit trading on the marque, while building antiquated designs/chassiseses which sold well.
Ford when taking over Aston Martin and Jaguar: Billions in debt and losing billions each year - estimated not to return to profit until at least next year - despite global market penetration and selling more vehicles than any other car company but Toyota and GM. And the best-selling passenger vehicle on Earth.


Not to mention that Aston Martin was run into debt on three occasions since 1975 BY American owners. And, amusingly, Jaguar has never turned a profit since being owned by Ford in 1989. Land Rover has always been a success - so much so that two separate "big names" have sought to separate the marque from its parent/founder Rover.

Jaguar is synonymous with luxury. Aston is synonymous with the best that money can buy. Land Rover is synonymous with extreme off-road capability and ruggedness. MG is synonymous with pathetic build quality and derisory reliability - but used to be a by-word for cheap, fun, sporty motoring. Successive parent companies have bought into the marques to achieve market penetration in areas they cannot reach without serious PR and R&D, without serious PR and R&D.

Not only low volume - Britain is the sole (or primary) market!

TVR's second biggest market is Japan - thanks in whole to the game this site is predominantly about. Ariel shift more units - via Brammo - in the US than the UK (probably thanks to the fact that Ariel is a seven-man shed operation in Somerset and take 6 months to build each car).

Yes - but not every manufacturer, as is the case in the UK.

Name me one car manufacturing group in the US that has turned a profit recently.


Expand that to worldwide. I can think of Porsche and possibly Toyota (though with all the stuff they own it's hard to say).

 

[Dave A]

Here is my question:

How do we know that once TVR goes under the presumed ownership of Americans, that everything will suddenly turn to American parts etc underneath? I have read no indication whatsoever that these men plan on pushing a Y-Body redux with a Corvette engine... Plans seem to indicate that they won't change a thing outside of the American models being federalized for street use in America.

from what I've read and been told the indication is more along the lines of TVR becoming nothing more than a badge and body, with the rest of the car being put together like a patchwork quilt.

...My guess is that these guys would be just as happy to give as many British folks their jobs back to build the cars in whatever way possible, however it does sound as though the American models would be built in America.

My take is they have no intention of hiring anyone to manufacture anything.

IMO, that doesn't seem like a huge problem to me, as both Americans and Europeans are keeping their jobs (for the most part), ad we are working together to build some of the best sportscars in the world.

If what you have said here is right, and TVR returns to Blackpool, at elast the Eurpean and Japanese models return to being built over here, then I could care less about the American models being built in America to meet US regulations. But I've not seen a single thing that points to that, I have seen a lot that doesn't.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Melling get the top-spot just as much as the other guy, but I don't see the huge negatives in having Americans running TVR.

As I said before, having Americas owning TVR on it's own is not a problem. It's what they do with it that matters.

 

[YSSMAN]

I understand. We'll have to wait and see what happens. I just want to have a few TVRs available in America. Any hope is good hope for me, and I can't wait to see more done with the Tuscan and Sagaris in America against our Corvettes and Vipers, as well as the Porsches, Lambos, and Ferraris as well.

 

[Car-less]

Big, nice sounding engine + mad body + high Power-to-Weight ratio + a chassis that can only just contain it + high level of demand on the driver = TVR.

Basically put the car should scare the hell out of you, that makes a TVR. Could the Americans do it right? Well that depends on the Americans in question

An Americanised (or Germanised) TVR would be as wrong as a Hemi powered Corvette, or Ferrari in the hands of the Scandinavians. Without the seat-of-your-pants ride and apparent disregard for emissions/safety they just wouldn't have the spirit of a TVR. They'd become another soul-less sportscar kept alive by the badge on the front.

 

[Tornado]

Big, nice sounding engine + mad body + high Power-to-Weight ratio + a chassis that can only just contain it + high level of demand on the driver = TVR.

[/joke]

 

[1X83Z]

Are people in this thread honestly comparing Aerial and TVR to Ford and Chevrolet?

Brits love their subpar products like Georgians love Jimmy Carter. Both loves are unfounded.

 

[Famine]

Are people in this thread honestly comparing Aerial and TVR to Ford and Chevrolet?

Brits love their subpar products like Georgians love Jimmy Carter. Both loves are unfounded.

If we're talking sub-par products, Ford and Chevrolet have the Brits beaten all ends up. At least we stopped making bland saloon cars in 1979.


I guess this means you're not going to pay attention to my previous post then?

 

[Scaff]

Are people in this thread honestly comparing Aerial and TVR to Ford and Chevrolet?

Brits love their subpar products like Georgians love Jimmy Carter. Both loves are unfounded.

In terms of them being classified as automobile manufacturers then yes I am, please explain exactly how they are not?

They were used as examples that refute the following statements you made...

Lord.

Have you ever wondered why every single British car maker has been bought out by a foreign firm? Have you considered the fact that British people simply can't seem to run competitive automakers?

Jaguar, Lotus, TVR, Land Rover, MG... I could go on, but you get the idea.

Not only low volume - Britain is the sole (or primary) market!



Yes - but not every manufacturer, as is the case in the UK.

...and I fail to see any mention that we have to include only high volume manufactures in these comments.

Simply put this looks a lot like an attempt to avoid directly addressing the points Famine and I raised (which directly disputed your comments), and for a member of your long standing such shallow tactics are disappointing to say the least.

Rather they remind me of someone who has just 'left' us, post up what appears to be biased statements and then refuse to back them up, resorting instead to attempts at cheap word-play. This strikes me far more as an attempt to start an argument (much the same as if some one posted up that American manufacturers sucked), simply put I would not stand for that, nor will I stand for what appears to be flaming here. I will not hesitate to use the infraction system if this does not return to being a discussion. Do not attempt the usual cry of mod bias or claims of heavy handed staff, such distractions will not wash with me at all, one more flame worthy comment or attempt to drag the thread off topic and I will issue an infraction.

I would also be interested to know exactly what experience you have to validate the claim of sub-par to manufacturers who have critical acclaim around the globe, such as Noble, Aerial, Caterham and Radical?

I have personal experience of two of the three above and can certain vouch that they are far from sub-par and I know that Famine can obtain direct evidence of what one of them is like to live with. Your expreience with sub-par British products is?

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

It boils down to this post here...

Or perhaps because they're considered prestige brands/marques and desirable to other manufacturers who cannot compete in those markets with their own line-ups.

Jaguar = Luxury market penetration for Ford.
Lotus = Sports know-how for fettling mundane Korean pap.
TVR = Low-cost beserker sports cars for whomever.
Land Rover = Off-road market penetration for Ford.
MG = Errrr.

We make stuff that people want. Except Rovers, which no-one wants. There's always more than one buyer for British marques (even Rover, bizarrely).

I would have repped this post if I could. People don't want to buy these companies because they are crap, that would make little sense. People buy them because of their reputation and because of the market penetration that company will offer. A crap company will offer little to no market penetration and as such will see little to no interest from anyone regarding a takeover. Look at Rover, that's been taken over by the Chinese, China must be the only country in the world where a Rover may be considered semi-decent compared to locally built cars.

Ford didn't buy Aston Martin because Aston Martin was a has-been company, or because they were doing terrible financially. they bought Aston Martin because Aston Martin is one of the most prestigous companies on the plannet, and that brings with it that market, a market Ford wasn't in before.

Forget about a companies origins for one second, because you won't see a company like Marcos looking to buy TVR, because TVR and Marcos both already occupy the same market. Basically, where TVR can go, Marcos can go too. They don't need to buy TVR to build a 450bhp insane sportscar. Rather, you would see either business men and established companies who currently have little to no penetration in the hardcore sportscar segment eyeing them up.

 

[Car-less]

I would have repped this post if I could. People don't want to buy these companies because they are crap, that would make little sense. People buy them because of their reputation and because of the market penetration that company will offer.

+Rep for a great explanation.
+Rep to Famine too.

Oddly, every time I see a post by Famine I know it will be a quality one, yet I had never thought to add to his Rep. I guess that is because his consistent quality means that no post of his stands out above his other posts!

 

[harrytuttle]

Certain for Europe I can't agree in all these areas, yes the majority of the manufacturers mentioned above are certainly aiming at small target audience, but a lot of those are aimed at the track day market. Caterham, Westfield, Aerial, Radical and Dax (to name but a few) are all operating in the same market, one with a limited number of consumers. The majority of who are technically aware and very fussy when it comes to build, after all the electrics failing on the motorway in a ‘normal’ car is scarey, the same flat-out around a sweeper on a track is a damn sight more dangerous.

There's a strong correlation between the type of market and the type of manufacturer in the respective countries: the British are a bit more eccentric and specific when it comes to cars, and the Americans are, well, generic. This probably explains the near total lack of low-volume sellers over here, despite the obvious desire for them over there. Any method of overcoming that obstacle threatens the very nature of what makes TVR stand out from Marcos, Corvette, or anything else.

Which is exactly the point I was making, many people simply look at volume manufacture on a global scale as the only area of automotive manufacture, an area I freely admit we suck at. However the low-volume market in the UK is very healthy at present, just because its low volume does not make it irrelevant to this discussion at all, in fact given that we are talking about TVR it makes them very relevant.

Oh, I never said TVR (and the rest) were irrelevant at all. On the contrary, there were exactly what I was talking about, and how they reflected the different market demands rather than different business decisions (see above).

Big, nice sounding engine + mad body + high Power-to-Weight ratio + a chassis that can only just contain it + high level of demand on the driver = TVR.

Like a Viper? I don't think Dodge would make a good Tuscan substitute (potential impending bankruptcy aside). I still think there's more to it than just that. There's a strong design ethos that TVR has created for itself over the past 15 years or so. The outside is generally gorgeous, and the interior is -- at worst -- quirky and funky, but always one of the coolest on the market. I know of no single American manufacturer that can accomodate that.

The same to a degree goes the owners and location; I would rather in stayed in the UK in British hands, but I would also rather it went overseas and thrived that simply faded away and died (as long as they stay true to the spirit of TVR and I can still see them out and about.

It would definitely be tragic to see TVR go the way of the intelligent politician, but there would be many years between any American purchase and the return of TVR-ish TVR's (e.g.: Aston Martin, Jaguar).