Are expanded grids (more than 16 cars on track) possible in future GT games?

[Scuderia Paul]

I could not imagine the car count passing 24 which is more than enough assuming the AI is up to scratch. Depending on the class of racing, rolling starts are fine when done correctly like the WEC and all GT racing - 2 cars abreast but closely packed. Not single file with 50m divides.

GT7 will include many additional effects over GT6 with advanced particles and possibly full dynamic environmental lighting.

 

[05XR8]

It took 5 GT games (minus the variants) to go from 6 to 16. A PS4 GT game with the NASCAR licence, would have to be a full grid of 42 cars. Even if we couldnt get a full grid of 40 in a GT3 or SUPER GT mixed field, certain series in GT have to have more than 16 cars available.

 

[Tenacious D]

I wouldn't get too fixated on anything more than 24 cars on track just yet, till we know more about the capabilities they're achieving on PS4, and this is likely very early days for them. 32 cars might happen, but remember that we expect a lot of things to be supersized for it, at least I do. I'm wanting a lot of processes running as I posted earlier, including lots of real world things like puddling depth differences on track and evaporation rates, marbling and rubber build up on track, all kinds of stuff that will require processor headroom to run properly.

Even 16 car fields would seem a lot bigger if the bots wouldn't spread out so much. But let's hope for at least 24!

 

[trustjab]

I expect 24 cars at minimum because its 50% more than the max right now. If they try for figures of 8... 16... 24... 32 etc. Keep the likes coming guys! And thank you for 'liking'.

 

[Earth]

A few reasons why I think 20 or 24 cars woild be ideal in GT7..

1. 20-24 cars is about the size of an average one class race. 43 car one class races like NASCAR are rare.

2. LeMans has a large 55 car grid yes, but if you count all the actual LeMans cars included in the game there is only around 22 (GT and prototype). And that includes four 60s prototypes and a number of 80s and early 90s group c cars. GT only has a handful of LeMans cars from the past 10 years. So if you wanted to recreate a proper LeMans race for each era (60s, Group C, modern) you would run out of car selection before you do grid space. A 55 car LeMans grid using GT's car roster would feature alot of duplicates.

3. 24+ cars would likely be lag chaos online without official servers

4. A 20 or 24 car grid would provide satisfying two class racing. 10-12 cars per class would mean a podium finish or win wouldnt be so easy. In fact 10-12 cars is the average size of a class in the FIA WEC if not a bit more.

5. A small bump in grid size would allow more resources to be put torwards framerate stability, the environment, overall visuals etc

 

[trustjab]

I think its reasonable to expect more race cars for gt7. Im willing to bet Playstation and GT are going to be partnering Nissan's 2015 lmp1. I also wouldnt be surprised to see the ZEOD. Imo, its fathomable to see 24+ cars. I think we will see at least 22, but PD can do more with the ps4. Servers will be a factor though, so we'll see.

 

[Tenacious D]

A few reasons why I think 20 or 24 cars would be ideal in GT7..

(exactly)

Exactly! 👍

Now I agree that in single player, it's up to the wizards at PD to decide where the limit is. But I've been gently lobbying for them to make sure the game is solid and smooth through and through and determine the maximum grid side by that. You know, turn everything on: heavy rain, 100% wet track, wind gusts, aggressive bots, full damage, liveries, dark with headlights and trackside lighting... and then determine how many cars will run well without hiccups. Maybe 28-32 is that number. But in a 20 car field, if the bots don't stretch the field out to crazy lengths like they do in GT6, that will seem like a LOT of cars.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think the real issue here is how many cars in the field with standing starts vs. rolling starts. If they allow standing starts online and off, I wouldn't be surprised if the limit is still 16.

 

[trustjab]

I dont think that will make a difference on ps4... should it be a memory issue.

 

[gtone339]

A must for endurance races! 👍

 

[ketiux]

PD is focusing too much on having the most polygons on a car's fender to make it look perfectly round instead of making the actual gameplay (online/offline) much better.

I dreamed so much for so many years that one day I would finally be able to race online against people. GT5P arrived. Then, the full game was released with up to 16 people online. I thought GT6 would expand a bit from everything that was learned from GT5.

Disappointed a bit? Yes. GT7 is a no buy for me unless it brings with it another dream (more than 16 players and everything we've been asking for the past 5 years).

 

[05XR8]

Why did PD choose NASCAR and WRC to licence in the series? WRC have had many cars in different classes. It would make more sense ro have more than the 4 cars per race we got in GT5.

On average, 5-6 seconds separated each car. Even if we queued for those last 3 cars ahead, there was time for 13 cars to have been posting times. True, we don't have many new WRC cars but, the races using street cars would have made sense to host 16.

If any series needed Base Models it is NASCAR. If PD keep the licence and we only get 24 cars or less, will be interesting to see what NASCAR liveries are added.

SuperGT will work real nice with both classes. I believe we'll see that series with mixed classes before any other mixed class series.

 

[Quakebass]

It seems that most next-gen titles are doing 24 on-track vehicles, so that'd be the minimum I'd expect from PD.

My question is how many PD can squeeze onto the track without degrading the gameplay, as they are known for being incredibly efficient with the hardware they're given. The fact that the last 2 GT games could run at 1080p @"60"FPS with 16 cars on track and dynamic lighting/weather on such old hardware is really quite an impressive feat.

I could see 32 happening potentially, but I won't put my standards higher than any other next-gen title for this aspect of the game.

 

[Aloha62_2]

A must for endurance races! 👍

Presuming endurance racing ever returns 24 would be pretty good for mixed field racing, either 12 in 2 classes or 8 in 3 classes. Although it's worth pointing out that even though GT6 is '16' most races are annoyingly well below that.

 

[ketiux]

I don't want to take this to the extreme but some games such as Battlefield for the PS3 supports up to 24 players. The amount of data (rain, bullets, explosives, vehicles, soldiers doing separates things on a big environment) that the game engine deals with is huge.

For the PS4 is double that with 64 players.

So, we can absolutely expect at the very least 20-24 cars online for GT7. The two games are demanding on graphics and their game engine uses the console's hardware to the limit.

 

[trustjab]

I agree. There should be no reason ps4 cant handle 24+ gt6 premium cars on track. If ps3 is doing 12-16 and ps4 is easily 3x better in terms of memory it'll be no big deal. I hope Kaz looks into this and answers us!

 

[Tenacious D]

I could see 32 happening potentially, but I won't put my standards higher than any other next-gen title for this aspect of the game.

Absolutely. In fact, I'm adamant that PD should button down the performance of the game with everything on, as I posted earlier in this thread. Not running at 45ish fps with dips and tearing, but 60ish. Hopefully, this would mean 24 car fields with custom liveries, but if that means 20, then 20 it should be.

We all want as many cars as possible in a race at once, but I really think that a smooth, tightly running game engine should be right at the top of their priority list. And like I mentioned before, a field of 20 cars that are running in a reasonably realistic group, not strung out at 45 seconds from first to last, will seem like a LOT of cars.

Still, I'm all for 24-32 car fields if it's doable. If PD can manage that, I won't just be a happy camper, I'll be in racing heaven.

Anyhow, about that racing...

 

[TRLWNC7396]

4-player arcade mode and/or LAN..... Need I say more?

 

[Quakebass]

Absolutely. In fact, I'm adamant that PD should button down the performance of the game with everything on, as I posted earlier in this thread. Not running at 45ish fps with dips and tearing, but 60ish. Hopefully, this would mean 24 car fields with custom liveries, but if that means 20, then 20 it should be.

We all want as many cars as possible in a race at once, but I really think that a smooth, tightly running game engine should be right at the top of their priority list. And like I mentioned before, a field of 20 cars that are running in a reasonably realistic group, not strung out at 45 seconds from first to last, will seem like a LOT of cars.

Still, I'm all for 24-32 car fields if it's doable. If PD can manage that, I won't just be a happy camper, I'll be in racing heaven.

Anyhow, about that racing...

24 will definitely be happening. The developers of the old FlatOut series from the PS2 days are working on a new project called "Next Car Game", and it runs on very similar hardware to the next-gen consoles. It has a 24-car grid, and absolutely STUNNING damage modeling, destructible environments, a pretty wicked lighting engine, and it all runs at a steady 1080p @60fps. PD is accustomed to working with tight hardware restrictions, and being a major first-party developer, have had direct involvement in selecting the hardware of the new box they'd be working with. They compressed a 16-bot, dynamic weather and time, ~60fps, 1080p game on a 7-year-old box. Now they have massively more powerful hardware, and a super dev-friendly architecture to work with - I'm 100% certain 24-car grids with smooth gameplay will happen, no matter the complexities of the visuals they will likely use. When GT5 came out, the visual specs of the game were quite a bit ahead of most other games releasing at that time, and that's a trend with most every GT game to date. I'm certain PD will continue to push to be ahead of the curve in these aspects, so again, even a 32-car grid is very plausible in my eyes. I'm really excited to see what PD will be able to do with a new, taller ceiling.

4-player arcade mode and/or LAN..... Need I say more?

YES.

I really miss the days when friends would come over and you'd actually play in the same room, laughing and raging with one another. I recently had a birthday celebration, and a close (and major car nerd) friend that I don't get to see much was coming early, so I got my PS3 up and running so we could play a few rounds of GT5 together before other guests showed up. We ended up playing until the other guests arrived, and then all of a sudden all of them wanted to take a spin. We all took turns and ended up spending most of the party on GT5, everyone had a great time and honestly, it was one of the most fun days I'd had in a good while... I feel like we miss out on that in most modern games.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Yes, the community of fun. WHY has it become a loner project to have fun...?

 

[Samus]

You know we could just wait for Kaz to give an answer rather than debating and guessing ourselves.

 

[NightHawkFur]

You know we could just wait for Kaz to give an answer rather than debating and guessing ourselves.

 

[Samus]

Touche. But still, I thought that was the point here, not someone ask a question and the community argue/try to answer.

 

[Tenacious D]

You know we could just wait for Kaz to give an answer rather than debating and guessing ourselves.

Yeah, but discussion is what message boards are all about. Besides, what's the fun of waiting?

24 will definitely be happening. The developers of the old FlatOut series from the PS2 days are working on a new project called "Next Car Game", and it runs on very similar hardware to the next-gen consoles. It has a 24-car grid, and absolutely STUNNING damage modeling, destructible environments, a pretty wicked lighting engine, and it all runs at a steady 1080p @60fps. PD is accustomed to working with tight hardware restrictions, and being a major first-party developer, have had direct involvement in selecting the hardware of the new box they'd be working with. They compressed a 16-bot, dynamic weather and time, ~60fps, 1080p game on a 7-year-old box. Now they have massively more powerful hardware, and a super dev-friendly architecture to work with - I'm 100% certain 24-car grids with smooth gameplay will happen, no matter the complexities of the visuals they will likely use. When GT5 came out, the visual specs of the game were quite a bit ahead of most other games releasing at that time, and that's a trend with most every GT game to date. I'm certain PD will continue to push to be ahead of the curve in these aspects, so again, even a 32-car grid is very plausible in my eyes. I'm really excited to see what PD will be able to do with a new, taller ceiling.

You're probably right. I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate I suppose, because the team seems to look at every clock cycle on a Playstation as an opportunity to add on some new aspect. But one thing they definitely take as a challenge is how many cars on track they can squeeze in at once.

I remember back in the early days of GT5 Prologue development, when just a single car was in camera, then three or four, and we finally got to see a handful at once. Critics looked these shots over and remarked on the biggest one, "Wow... seven cars. One whole car more than GT4." And of course, we were crossing our fingers for more like twelve cars... surely Kaz could take advantage of all that Cell horsepower and do something bodacious. Surely. And then of course came that trailer with sixteen cars screaming along the curves of Suzuka, and we started screaming ourselves, and many of us looking into getting import copies, like me.

So 32 cars is definitely not out of the question. But I don't want to see a race of 32 cars on track if 20 of them are off camera somewhere, and the separation of first to last is a minute again. I want PD to make sure that the entire field can be on screen at once with everything running, not have half the field disappear into the distance so they can be pushed off into background processes. With no hiccups, and a steady 60-ish framerate. The field should be as close and behave like it does in real life racing.

 

[Earth]

I agree history says 32 cars is possible, Im just not going to get my hopes too high. Theres just too many variables involved. We may suspect GT7 will use PS3 premiums, but what if PD has decided to upgrade those cars to a much higher level of detail? Im sure some (myself included) expect photomode or near photomode quality cars, but what if GT7 cars are upgraded even further and exceed that? What if Drive Club level detail is put into the environment, like 200km draw distances and hundreds of thousands of 3D trees?

But Tenacious D is right, a bigger car grid wont matter with rubber band AI, rabbits, or any other anomalies.

 

[trustjab]

Touche. But still, I thought that was the point here, not someone ask a question and the community argue/try to answer.

Community is the key word. More discussion on a topic means more interest. And for a subject I personally have brought up, I sure as hell dont mind the community's input.

 

[Quakebass]

Whatever it's gonna be, I can't wait to do a max grid of Tank Cars on Autumn Ring Mini.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I agree history says 32 cars is possible, Im just not going to get my hopes too high. Theres just too many variables involved. We may suspect GT7 will use PS3 premiums, but what if PD has decided to upgrade those cars to a much higher level of detail? Im sure some (myself included) expect photomode or near photomode quality cars, but what if GT7 cars are upgraded even further and exceed that? What if Drive Club level detail is put into the environment, like 200km draw distances and hundreds of thousands of 3D trees?

But Tenacious D is right, a bigger car grid wont matter with rubber band AI, rabbits, or any other anomalies.

Which history is that? Which other car game with 500K polygon cars with the level of environment detail, weather etc. that GT has, is running 32 cars at 1080P/60FPS on a console?

They are using PS3 premiums, and they already have a higher level of detail, you can see it in photomode. Expect to see that on track on the PS4.

24 will definitely be happening. The developers of the old FlatOut series from the PS2 days are working on a new project called "Next Car Game", and it runs on very similar hardware to the next-gen consoles. It has a 24-car grid, and absolutely STUNNING damage modeling, destructible environments, a pretty wicked lighting engine, and it all runs at a steady 1080p @60fps. PD is accustomed to working with tight hardware restrictions, and being a major first-party developer, have had direct involvement in selecting the hardware of the new box they'd be working with. They compressed a 16-bot, dynamic weather and time, ~60fps, 1080p game on a 7-year-old box. Now they have massively more powerful hardware, and a super dev-friendly architecture to work with - I'm 100% certain 24-car grids with smooth gameplay will happen, no matter the complexities of the visuals they will likely use. When GT5 came out, the visual specs of the game were quite a bit ahead of most other games releasing at that time, and that's a trend with most every GT game to date. I'm certain PD will continue to push to be ahead of the curve in these aspects, so again, even a 32-car grid is very plausible in my eyes. I'm really excited to see what PD will be able to do with a new, taller ceiling.



YES.

I really miss the days when friends would come over and you'd actually play in the same room, laughing and raging with one another. I recently had a birthday celebration, and a close (and major car nerd) friend that I don't get to see much was coming early, so I got my PS3 up and running so we could play a few rounds of GT5 together before other guests showed up. We ended up playing until the other guests arrived, and then all of a sudden all of them wanted to take a spin. We all took turns and ended up spending most of the party on GT5, everyone had a great time and honestly, it was one of the most fun days I'd had in a good while... I feel like we miss out on that in most modern games.

I'm really looking forward to Next Car Game but if you think it in any way, shape or form compares to GT7 you're mistaken. In every single aspect except damage of course, there is much more going on in a GT game, from the environment to the car detail to weather to physics etc. They are in no way an apples to apples comparison on any level.

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

64 cars offline is perfectly possible on lower spec PCs in high end Simulators and quite appropriate on larger tracks like Le Sarthe and the Nurburgring. I would be disappointed in GT7 or PS4 Project Cars if we can't have fields of at least 32.

With Project Cars licensing of Le Mens 24hrs I think at least 32 on PS4 and ideally much more are the minimum to represent a good multiclass field.

Like it or not GT7 on PS4 has to be competitive with PC and also the Steam console as direct competition.

 

[trustjab]

I guess we will see what pcars offers. I would think and hope GT7 would want to match or exceed the competition on the same console. I think 24 cars is reasonable with the current level of detail on a ps4.