Are Nurburgring laps times relevant in 2008?

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Are Nurburgring laps times relevant in 2008?

  • Yes. It is an important indicator of a car's overall performance.

    Votes: 23 34.3%
  • No. It's just marketing hype and I'm tired of hearing about it.

    Votes: 14 20.9%
  • Maybe. It's an interesting topic but I'm unsure/undecided on how important it really is.

    Votes: 29 43.3%
  • Fanboi. It is only important if my favorite car is fastest. If another car is faster, then I don't

    Votes: 1 1.5%

  • Total voters
    67
ring times are good index of how a car "should" perform when driven 10/ 10s at a track. ring times do nothing to tell you how a car will handle a 70 mile 110 degree F (43 C) commute. dont tell me that commute doesnt exist. a coworker of mine does it. its just not always that hot in summer.

so i think they have thier place. but that place has more to do with performance than average joe driver cares. the enthusiasts among us would pick a BMW over a comparable lexus most of the time. joe driver would probably pick the lexus.
 
(No. It's just marketing hype and I'm tired of hearing about it.)

If the driver was a constant, or it were a race/time-trial, it would matter.
 
I would say that Nurburgring is a pretty extensive track with several different elements that would put to test any sports car out there. I think that 7 or 8 minutes of performance driving through all the technical elements of Nurburgring definitely opens up new considerations of what a car is capable of, but also of course it all just depends on the car itself.

I like to see that car companies have chosen a proving ground in which we can all compare and talk about as they continue to turn in times. Nurb proves a lot things like top speed, handling, control, acceleration, and overall ability rather than just 0-60 times. While straight line acceleration is appreciated too, running the car on a course will prove if the car was properly engineered to take advantage of it's that acceleration through different situations.

I like Nurb laptimes, they definitely add considerable fuel to the fire when it comes to "which is better" debates. I think that Nurb if anything definitely gives us at least an idea of what to expect from a sports car.
 
Apparently I'm the only fanboy here. Surely that can't be true...

If the driver was a constant, or it were a race/time-trial, it would matter.

If the car is driven on the track over and over by different drivers, the amount of samples will give a range of lap times that will accurately reflect the performance of the car. And these can be compared car to car to determine which is the better performer.

I do think sector times would be better at comparing car to car. Some cars will drive very differently even though they have similar lap times. You can't assume that two cars are equal if one has twice the power of another yet both give the same lap time. Sector times would be far more useful in finding the strengths and weaknesses of the car.

If you are buying for performance alone, the only thing a 'Ring time will tell you is how fast the car goes around the 'Ring. However, it will have different applications where it could be more useful.
 
I voted "yes."

In typing my explanation, I've changed my mind. There are too many variables, in my opinion, to get a truly good impression of a car's usability without a collosal test sample. I still love the Nurb, but it is too complex to be more a measure of car than driver.
 
EDIT: @homeforsummer:

If you're an average Joe, why are you trying to drive your car quickly on the streets in the first place? In that situation I hope you do put your car into a hedge

I hope that comment is general and not aimed at me, and that you haven't assumed I drive like an idiot on the road... :rolleyes:

At the same time, it's a little myopic assuming that some people don't drive quickly on the roads - whether people should drive quickly or not it still happens. And in that situation, if you put it through a hedge it probably is your fault, but an edgy car that only a professional driver can tame doesn't help.

And anyway there's nothing wrong with "spirited" driving - it's dangerous or unsuitable driving for the conditions that should be discouraged.
 
And anyway there's nothing wrong with "spirited" driving - it's dangerous or unsuitable driving for the conditions that should be discouraged.

A discussion we had quite extensively in the Opinions forum. With no need to revisit it!
 
Hello!

A nice interesting Thread...

Well, the Nordschleife is a very good place for setup cars. Normal cars, sports cars even SUVs. But the times are not comparable. Like already mentioned the weather (temperature, humidity) is a big point.

And what lots of people don´t know is that every year the Nordschleife changes. They renew the track partly. The bumps and jumps get smaller, new tarmac makes it faster and so on. (Check older videos to see)

When it comes to the grip of the track: After the 24h Race the grip is higher than normally. (Or after a long distance race)

But most of that happens at other racetracks too. So all this "fighting" about what car is faster is pretty much pointless. What is the sad truth is that most cars weigh more and more and the generation later even more...
And that make cars consume more fuel then needed. And that is more a problem that we should think about then if the car is x fractions of a second faster on a track... And the "fastest" cars are not always fun to drive.

What I find somehow "strange" is that the Nordschleife is existing for so long, but a few years ago it started to get the new "marketing" field...

Greetings

Matthias
 
I think data on sector times would be a much better gauge of performance than whole lap times. I do think ring times have a place but they arn't even close to a be all and end all in a performance debate.
 
I believe the 'ring to be a drivers mecca of sorts.

I also believe it is an ideal place to test a cars ability to take multiple and various obstacles in elevation changes, off camber corners, etc.

However, because it has SO many turns and places where perfection could be hindered, I don't find 'ring times to be anything more than a fancy little number with a lot of "bling-bling" attached to it.
 
I know TSX owners have a tough time understanding what it means to accelerate well. :D

Bring it. :trouble:
 
Anyone have a better idea about how to objectively and quantitatively measure performance?

The best possible scenario that I can come up with is for the same driver to take all cars produced to 20 different tracks on the same day in the same temperature and weather conditions and put it to the test.

So I suppose we should get as close as we can get to that.

Or is the thinking that we shouldn't be caring so much about performance? Because I can see that argument, but I still don't mind seeing performance numbers. Maybe I won't make my purchase decision entirely based on them, or even mostly based on them, but they're still neat and useful.

I came close to picking choice 1, because I can't think of a much better way to measure performance. When it comes right down to it, who gets around the track first is what we've always used to figure out which car is faster. The 'ring offers lots of different challenges, more so than the usual track, so I can see how it got picked.
 
I voted Number One... changed my mind halfway through, then re-thought... yeah, 1 is right.

It's an important indicator, yes. Not the most important, or the most descriptive (honestly, the mentioned sector times, possibly top speed down the back straight, and cornering g's on some of the more famous corners would be helpful), but a good indicator of what's possible with a car.

But I've always looked at track times as suggestive rather than indicative. In other words, they're important, but not absolute measures.

I think a car's performance can be highly tuned through testing on the track (or any track, really) but I think the car's lap time itself is not at all a precise measure of its performance. Especially on a track as large as the Nurburgring. The longer and more complicated the track, the more mistakes the driver is prone to make. One of the best ways to make a lap time truly relevant is to have the same drive pilot all the cars. But that doesn't happen at the Ring.

And even when it does, as in the case of "SportAuto" times, track conditions, weather and tester condition are all different. Interestingly, their "partially wet" GT-R time is 7:50 (not supertest, supposedly just an impressions test), and the 911 Turbo gave them 7:54.

That does indicate that drivers and the manner of driving... and, obviously, testing conditions all play a big role in this. Apparently, the conditions the GT2 was driven in earlier this year weren't ideal. I fully expect it to beat the GT-R time given a better run.

Even with the same driver on the same day, there's some fudge involved. No driver is perfect, and they all have a different style. I'd venture to say that you make, say, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen and Lewis Hamilton switch cars and they'd all be significantly slower for the first few laps. Give one tester a dozen cars, some of which require different lines, different driving techniques, and whatnot, and there'll be some cars he can get 110% out of and others he can get 80% out of.

There's no absolutely fair way to compare cars around a course this complicated. You could make a closed indoor course at some huge hanger, map out a set of varied turns, and then have a computer drive the cars via remote, using the exact same line each time (and even then, it's not fair to cars that need to be trail-braked to rotate or cars that can take a tighter line).

So... no way to make the times consistent, even on a short course. Put it on the Nurb and it all goes to hell.

And therein lies the danger of taking Nurb times too seriously. Or even Top Gear times. "Fastest" is always nice, but if you're just a few tenths off, or, in the case of the Nurb, just a few seconds off... you're in pretty good shape, anyway.

And when you corroborate it with testing times over a variety of tracks, you get a better picture of why one car is faster... is it straight-line speed? Is it cornering ability? Does anybody who understands why a puny 200-odd horsepower kit car can thoroughly thrash a 600+ hp supercar on the racetrack actually think that what's faster is a foregone conclusion based on manufacturer numbers like "hp" and "weight" (either of which can be misleading in either direction based on whatever source you get the numbers from)?


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In the end, track times, like 0-60 times or top speed, are bragging points for the manufacturers. They're a good indicator of what a car might be capable of, but not the sole basis of comparison between two automobiles.

I mean, I'd like to have a faster car, but I'd much rather have the one that's a few tenths slower to 60, a few seconds slower on the ring', doesn't look like a silly robot cartoon, and that doesn't rattle my teeth out every time I drive to work.
 
Anyone have a better idea about how to objectively and quantitatively measure performance?
Doug brings his Audi by my house on his way back to school this fall, and we head over to Cecil County Dragway for a little heads-up racing against my "slow as hell" BMW and "doesn't accelerate well" Acura.
 
I must applaud the individual who chose option 4. It was feeling quite lonely and insecure watching the options get picked. It now feels much better about itself.


M
 
Thank you, Einstein. I hadn't realized that.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Or, you could hitch a tow rope between the two cars and do a tug of war.




























In reverse. :dopey:
 
In terms of performance, it doesn't really matter how fast a car goes around the 'ring.
Unless, like Cadillac you are trying to change your image as a producer of "Fogey-mobiles", to that of a producer of cars that people that have just gotten their first grey hair might consider as a vehicle to "recapture" their youth, but without the inherent discomfort of car that would have "ruled" Woodward Ave. back in the 1960's.

The ring may be some sort of "benchmark", but how many people are really gonna drive the 'ring in "anger"?
It's meaningful to us car guys, but in the grand scheme of things there are not that many of us.
Hell, out of six boys I've managed to raise only one that can think of a car as more than 'A to B' general transportation.
They all know what a "good-looking" car is. But performance only matters to one of them.
 
Bring it. :trouble:

Actually by all unbiased standards your TSX is slightly faster than mine so maybe I should STFU? Then again mine was half the price... though it's half the beautiful too...
 
Actually by all unbiased standards your TSX is slightly faster than mine so maybe I should STFU? Then again mine was half the price... though it's half the beautiful too...
And at least twice the age, too, but that's the joys of buying used (not that I have a problem with used).

Half as beautiful, nah. More like 75%. If it was the next-gen A4, I'd bump that to 90%. You're still nuts about the current Lancer, though...
 
Gil
In terms of performance, it doesn't really matter how fast a car goes around the 'ring.
Unless, like Cadillac you are trying to change your image as a producer of "Fogey-mobiles", to that of a producer of cars that people that have just gotten their first grey hair might consider as a vehicle to "recapture" their youth, but without the inherent discomfort of car that would have "ruled" Woodward Ave. back in the 1960's.

The only cars that "rule" Woodward now are crappy looking Civic's with turbo's and other "JDM" stuff on them. I head out there on Friday nights from time to time and you rarely see any "muscle" car and when you do they are quickly shut up by some 17 year old kid in a Civic who not only beats them but outright slaughters them. I actually find it amusing since we are supposed to be the "Motor City".

The ring may be some sort of "benchmark", but how many people are really gonna drive the 'ring in "anger"?
It's meaningful to us car guys, but in the grand scheme of things there are not that many of us.
Hell, out of six boys I've managed to raise only one that can think of a car as more than 'A to B' general transportation.
They all know what a "good-looking" car is. But performance only matters to one of them.

I think most car buyer feel that way, they buy a car for A to B with a side trip to C on the weekend and a long road trip to D once a year. And this goes for a lot of the people who buy sports cars, they aren't looking to go fast or even have the crème de la crème. To them it's all about the image, which is why I think so many people in this area buy convertible Corvettes.

Ring times only seem to matter to those who will never own such a car. I mean yes many of us can go back and forth about the Ring time on the ZR-1 vs. the GT-R but in the end how many of us will ever own one, let alone take it to a track and ever less so take it to the Ring ourselves?
 
Close the poll. ZR1 beat GT-R by 3 seconds:dopey:
 
I think its somewhat of the "Gran Turismo" effect. Like the love for Skylines in America, I think GT helped bring the Nurburgring from a well known grueling track, to the mecca of race courses.

After seeing the lap times of the ZR1 and R35 i started a GT4 game on my PS3 and grabbed a Skyline R33 Vspec and took it to the ring and threw up a few clean laps, only to throw up a lap time almost a minute slower. Obviously the R35 is much faster and a better handling car, but still i didnt have the fear factor and i was running in the 8's, so its mind blowing to see these cars running 7'20s in basic stock trim.
 
And at least twice the age, too, but that's the joys of buying used (not that I have a problem with used).

Hey now - 14 months, 33,000 miles, and only $800 in unscheduled maintenance. Most new cars can't do that!!

Half as beautiful, nah. More like 75%. If it was the next-gen A4, I'd bump that to 90%. You're still nuts about the current Lancer, though...

What's odd is that EVERY TIME I tell people I like my car's styling but I like the '02-'04 model better, they tell me mine ('96-'01) is better. WTF? have they SEEN the next model? So much more crisp and muscular.

BTW the Lancer IS gorgeous.
 
Hey now - 14 months, 33,000 miles, and only $800 in unscheduled maintenance. Most new cars can't do that!!



What's odd is that EVERY TIME I tell people I like my car's styling but I like the '02-'04 model better, they tell me mine ('96-'01) is better. WTF? have they SEEN the next model? So much more crisp and muscular.

BTW the Lancer IS gorgeous.

I agree on the A4, i was looking at your gen for a while but the whole time i was wishing i could afford a 02-04 A4, or better yet, S4.
 
I agree on the A4, i was looking at your gen for a while but the whole time i was wishing i could afford a 02-04 A4, or better yet, S4.

S4s are falling fast... for what I paid for my 2.8 just over a year ago, I could now have an S4 of the same year. Ugh.
 
I think its somewhat of the "Gran Turismo" effect. Like the love for Skylines in America, I think GT helped bring the Nurburgring from a well known grueling track, to the mecca of race courses.

After seeing the lap times of the ZR1 and R35 i started a GT4 game on my PS3 and grabbed a Skyline R33 Vspec and took it to the ring and threw up a few clean laps, only to throw up a lap time almost a minute slower. Obviously the R35 is much faster and a better handling car, but still i didnt have the fear factor and i was running in the 8's, so its mind blowing to see these cars running 7'20s in basic stock trim.
It was already a well known track and used by the auto industry for testing, and there was already a big interest in lap times there long before it appeared in GT4. GT4 will have no doubt raised it's profile somewhat though.
 
S4s are falling fast... for what I paid for my 2.8 just over a year ago, I could now have an S4 of the same year. Ugh.

Count yourself lucky. I drove a 2001? 02? - last year of the twin turbo 6 - S4, and almost bought it instead of my 3er.

Then I looked under the hood...

...and gently closed it again, then backed away slowly, and thanked the salesman for his time.

It was a great car, but it looked like an absolute gibbering nightmare for maintenance.
 
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