ATAQ - a time trial experiment

[Gorefast]

THOUGHTS ON WEIGHT
Definitely light cars are strong this round. Blip's 1:12.4 in a fly-weight NSX proves that (). I ran a marginally heavier one to 1:12.5 last week.

Also, I tested the Ford GT40 MKI which is definitely, definitely, not a racecar with the roadcar tag I started with ~1300kg and kept lowering the weight. The more weight I took off, the better the lap times.The argument against this says that I was just learning the car and track, but either way, the lighter car was on the edge of 1:12s with 1966 brakes.

I believe low weight helps with braking distances and cornering speeds; maybe because you're able to get the car settled and back on the throttle more quickly.

AWD cars don't seem to care, perhaps because their traction advantage already allows them to get on the power more quickly as long as the driver can line up their corner exit correctly. But I haven't tested a lighter Gallardo yet. Oh, and I am running the Gallardo because it looked quite fast in Round 3. It rotates nicely too. Maybe it can be faster than the Audi R8 V10 🔥

POWER TUNING
I use both the ECU and Power Limiter. I decrease HP using the Power Limiter first because that leaves me with the same horsepower, but more torque. That's why my setting often look like ECU: 100 / Power Limiter 70.

Not sure whether having more torque at the same power is good for all cars, but it definitely helped the rev-happy 991 GT3 and my R8 V10 - because they don't have much torque to begin with. I noticed my higher torque ghost consistently pull away from me in the big hairpin at Road Atlanta no matter how well I took it.

Example of this maybe not working: the Pagani Huayra should be faster than it is with 500+hp / 1084nm (800lb-ft) of torque

@Gorefast and @ikon_313
My laziness has pushed me to create a spreadsheet conversion tool.

The formula I'm using is Weight (KG) / 2.6084. You should be able to input a car's desired weight and get the regulation power. I've attached a Microsoft Excel file. Please double check my math.

I am near the end of my busy real life week, and have had zero time / energy to test cars this week. Looking forward driving and tuning again in a few days.

Unfortunately I cannot use Excel at the moment but as I added a bhp number at the rules on first post I used a conversion factor of 1.34102 that led to 2,6099 (=2,61). What did you different or I wrong?

Thank you for your input that would help If I would have seat time! The coming two weeks might be better...

 

[bliprunner]

THOUGHTS ON WEIGHT
Definitely light cars are strong this round. Blip's 1:12.4 in a fly-weight NSX proves that (). I ran a marginally heavier one to 1:12.5 last week.

Also, I tested the Ford GT40 MKI which is definitely, definitely, not a racecar with the roadcar tag I started with ~1300kg and kept lowering the weight. The more weight I took off, the better the lap times.The argument against this says that I was just learning the car and track, but either way, the lighter car was on the edge of 1:12s with 1966 brakes.

I believe low weight helps with braking distances and cornering speeds; maybe because you're able to get the car settled and back on the throttle more quickly.

AWD cars don't seem to care, perhaps because their traction advantage already allows them to get on the power more quickly as long as the driver can line up their corner exit correctly. But I haven't tested a lighter Gallardo yet. Oh, and I am running the Gallardo because it looked quite fast in Round 3. It rotates nicely too. Maybe it can be faster than the Audi R8 V10 🔥

POWER TUNING
I use both the ECU and Power Limiter. I decrease HP using the Power Limiter first because that leaves me with the same horsepower, but more torque. That's why my setting often look like ECU: 100 / Power Limiter 70.

Not sure whether having more torque at the same power is good for all cars, but it definitely helped the rev-happy 991 GT3 and my R8 V10 - because they don't have much torque to begin with. I noticed my higher torque ghost consistently pull away from me in the big hairpin at Road Atlanta no matter how well I took it.

Example of this maybe not working: the Pagani Huayra should be faster than it is with 500+hp / 1084nm (800lb-ft) of torque

@Gorefast and @ikon_313
My laziness has pushed me to create a spreadsheet conversion tool.

The formula I'm using is Weight (KG) / 2.6084. You should be able to input a car's desired weight and get the regulation power. I've attached a Microsoft Excel file. Please double check my math.

I am near the end of my busy real life week, and have had zero time / energy to test cars this week. Looking forward driving and tuning again in a few days.

I did a 1.12.0 in the NSX as well... but decided to keep this replay a secret 😉

(No, actually I wanted to hit 1.11 before sharing but it didn't happen... I was only .008 away but once I started to mess about with setup I got a bit lost...)

The car is really nicely settled around the fast turns, the final turn is basically flat and it slides nicely with all four wheels, no snapping. Maybe I'll put a turbo back in and see what happens...

 

[rheinaoi]

Unfortunately I cannot use Excel at the moment but as I added a bhp number at the rules on first post I used a conversion factor of 1.34102 that led to 2,6099 (=2,61). What did you different or I wrong?

Thank you for your input that would help If I would have seat time! The coming two weeks might be better...

No worries. I can convert to other file formats if needed. As for the math, I think it's me being inconsistent with rounding when working with conversions. Interestingly, I am definitely using the 1.34102 rate. I've actually memorized it because I use it so much

As for @bliprunner, I and my pit crew are cheering for your NSX. Heck yeah!!🔥🔥

 

[bliprunner]

Made the 1.11's finally... took some photos and messed around, then forgot to save the replay! 😭

At least the time went on the leaderboard. Nevermind, I can do it again... hopefully....

Will share the tune later, I'd be interested to know if there's any simple tweaks to make the car better. It's been tiny gains for the last 0.5, and it could just be a case of driving a solid lap and all my tweaking hasn't been that effective.

I even put the fattest possible tyre on for this run but it didn't feel better over the kerbs. The rest of the lap felt planted though and there were clearly no negatives...

 

[bliprunner]

Here’s the tune, would be interested to know anyone’s opinion. Is there any obvious improvement to be made?

(Wide car, Gears are stock ratio, only max speed adjusted. Tyres are fattest possible on Spoon rims, I think 15”)

 

[bliprunner]

Replay now saved with usual tags 🙌🏻

 

[rheinaoi]

New personal best in the 991 GT3. 1:11.8
1150kg / 437hp

Into the 1:11s, finally!! The replay is shared with the usual tags #ataq #ataqrwd #rheinaoi

I really, really should go hide in the 4WD and FF class

Heavier cars can creep ahead on the main straightaway, but the light cars have so much maneuverability and can carry so much more momentum through the final sector that the power difference does not matter.

The same pattern keeps emerging from my tests. This goes beyond getting more familiar with the car, IMO.
Drive > Lower Weight / Power > Faster lap time > Repeat

The lower the weight, the lower my lap times.
Pagani Huayra - 1:12.8 > 1:12.07
Lamborghini Veneno - 1:12.8 > 1:12.19

Also, it looks like longer, lazier gears help. The less shifting on the straightaways, the better, because of our "slow" gearboxes.

Any setting that can allow us to fly safely over the sausage curbs (without penalties 🫠 ) in that silly chicane will make the lap times fall.

@bliprunner Nothing sticks out at me about your tune that needs improvement. With the weight in the front, and the camber, it looks like you calmed down the NSX's willingness to rotate and got it to be more consistent. Also, good idea on the downforce - nice compromise of high enough to make it through the two high speed corners, but also taking drag into consideration. And your very competitive top speed down the main straight reflects that. My downforce is 215 / 275; perhaps overly aggressive.

Braking sensitivity seems high considering the amount of ballast you have near the front. But only lower it if you really want more rotation coasting and coming off the brakes.

You can try higher Negative Camber while keeping the same ratio. Something like 2.4 / 2.6. I believe you get a little more grip while turning, but you risk lengthening your braking distances and slightly compromising acceleration. Though I only notice difference when I really play with the ratio between the two.

Let's go Team Blip / NSX!

 

[bliprunner]

New personal best in the 991 GT3. 1:11.8
1150kg / 437hp

Into the 1:11s, finally!! The replay is shared with the usual tags #ataq #ataqrwd #rheinaoi

I really, really should go hide in the 4WD and FF class

Heavier cars can creep ahead on the main straightaway, but the light cars have so much maneuverability and can carry so much more momentum through the final sector that the power difference does not matter.

The same pattern keeps emerging from my tests. This goes beyond getting more familiar with the car, IMO.
Drive > Lower Weight / Power > Faster lap time > Repeat

The lower the weight, the lower my lap times.
Pagani Huayra - 1:12.8 > 1:12.07
Lamborghini Veneno - 1:12.8 > 1:12.19

Also, it looks like longer, lazier gears help. The less shifting on the straightaways, the better, because of our "slow" gearboxes.

Any setting that can allow us to fly safely over the sausage curbs (without penalties 🫠 ) in that silly chicane will make the lap times fall.

@bliprunner Nothing sticks out at me about your tune that needs improvement. With the weight in the front, and the camber, it looks like you calmed down the NSX's willingness to rotate and got it to be more consistent. Also, good idea on the downforce - nice compromise of high enough to make it through the two high speed corners, but also taking drag into consideration. And your very competitive top speed down the main straight reflects that. My downforce is 215 / 275; perhaps overly aggressive.

Braking sensitivity seems high considering the amount of ballast you have near the front. But only lower it if you really want more rotation coasting and coming off the brakes.

You can try higher Negative Camber while keeping the same ratio. Something like 2.4 / 2.6. I believe you get a little more grip while turning, but you risk lengthening your braking distances and slightly compromising acceleration. Though I only notice difference when I really play with the ratio between the two.

Let's go Team Blip / NSX!

Thanks, tried all three changes, maybe a little oversteery but not slower…

Will maybe play with a couple of the gears as well, try and position in the sweet spot.

 

[911RSR]

Yesterday i refueled my GT3RS and did some laps in spain again.
Managed to improve to a 1:12,236 (my old best was 1:12,6xx). Not that bad for me, but those last bits to get under 1:12 will be hard to find.
Especially with that final chicane. It's so easy here to throw a good lap into the bin!
But beeing so close to 1:12 really gets me going!

 

[Gorefast]

Yesterday i refueled my GT3RS and did some laps in spain again.
Managed to improve to a 1:12,236 (my old best was 1:12,6xx). Not that bad for me, but those last bits to get under 1:12 will be hard to find.
Especially with that final chicane. It's so easy here to throw a good lap into the bin!
But beeing so close to 1:12 really gets me going!

That is awesome and it might help you to hear that my first run with the Supra got me into 1:14:xxx after maybe 10 laps... I hope that my GT-R will get me closer to you, guys!

The track is rather tricky (for example the bump after the first corner) but it grows on me (without saying that I like it).

 

[911RSR]

The track is rather tricky

100% true! Every single turn has the potential to ruin your lap!

 

[ikon_313]

This round really isn't for me. Having a hard time getting decent lap times. Catalunya is one of the few tracks I hate to the core. The off camber turns and tight chicanes paired with sausage curbs really kill the vibe for me. It sucks when you suck at a track. It is only slightly satisfying, nailing T1, but just one centimeter off the inside line consistently lands me in understeer land

One thing I need to point out is the change to Sport Soft tyres really ups the fun factor. Noticed at Road Atlanta how much you feel the tyres and where the sweet spot is and when loss of grip occurs. Not as much like on rails and abrupt as on softer or dulled out like hard slicks. A lot easier to trail brake and induce neutral steer. Very rewarding, especially on this track with weird camber changes.

Tried a few cars with varying weight. Need to build a different NSX with standard engine and maybe test blip's setup for reference/benchmark.

 

[Gorefast]

After a big step up at the time trial with RX-7 I was motivated to return to Barcelona, too. If I could use my good form of today it would be with the GT-R...

After 12 laps I scored a 1:13:8xx that is two seconds (!) slower than @rheinaoi but at the same time quite a good result for me. So for the moment I am happy for you and me... 😃

 

[rheinaoi]

I've been wrapped up in testing cars again. I must remember to actually talk about it - my brain shifts to others tasks more slowly than the standard gearboxes, you see...

If you are morbidly curious about any tune here, just ask.

Lamborghini Gallardo - 1:11.764
486hp / 1269kg [2798lbs]
My current fastest machine. Second heaviest of this bunch and it does not care. Great rotation on demand. Superior grip accelerating out of corners. 4WD crab walk off the track if you get on the power too early.

Lamborghini Aventador - 1:11.821
456hp / 1193kg [2630lbs]
Avenge the Aventador! Slower than the Gallardo because it fundamentally wants to understeer. Merciless track weapon that screams at you before it eats your opponents (and you).

Alpine A110 '17 - 1:13.549
422hp /1104kg [2434lbs]
Finally in the 1:13s! But that's still slower than I would like. A bit wild and oversteery because of the Low RPM Turbo, short wheelbase and my desperation for more grip and rotation. You can really feel the lack of aero compared to the monsters in the 1:11s.

Alpine A110 '72 - Silvia Swap - 1:15.997
330hp / 865kg [1907lbs]
This car, before the engine swap, made me a tuner. I love it to bits, but it seems to have lower overall grip no matter what I do. Lightness and stiff suspension made the car jump around over bumps. 0 front downforce hurt my soul more than it hurt lap times. Top speed was bullettrain for the power, but those braking distances....

Corvette C8 '20 - 1:12.077
432hp / 1132kg [2496lbs]
Great potential, dynamically good, but very sensitive to aggressive aero. Needs full rear downforce for me to run safely. It's not in the 1:11s because its weird traction issues under acceleration make it feel like an FR Supercharged, mid engine, grunty V8. Maybe giving it an RR weight bias will make it accelerate out of corners like an MR. You. Were. My. Chosen. One

Pagani Huayra - 1:12.076
523hp / 1372kg [3025lbs]
0:00.001 faster than the Corvette because it is the superior platform and has 33% more torque. Great aero. Very stable. Would be perfect if it naturally would rotate more. It is heavy because muscles are heavy. It has a lot of muscles.

Ferrari F40 - Enzo Swap - 1:12.780
420hp / 1097kg [2418lbs]
Ridiculously light. Neutral with some understeer. Glad to have an F40 in the 1:12s! Would like to see if 1:12s are possible with Turbo [lag] Torque. More aero than you would expect.

Porsche 930 [not]Turbo - RSR Swap - 1:13.1
432hp /1134kg [2500lbs]
Rotation in the silly chicane so unreal you will believe that the hand of God [Babis] is slapping your car's butt. All other handling aspects are strange and slightly terrible - so, it's still an old 911 ❤️ Also more aero than you would expect.

I want to test all the 911s, but I suspect I don't have time for that. And I still need to try @bliprunner's NSX🔥🔥

The off camber turns and tight chicanes paired with sausage curbs really kill the vibe for me.

It's the penalties that hobble me. I cannot tell you how many laps got binned because I hit the sausage entering the chicane and had the audacity to survive. I believe I've gotten penalties in all of the corners except T1. Most of the corners feel so... odd to me.

But, the tuning keeps me coming back. The handling feel is more muted to me, but the cars that we end up building for these challenges feel very engaging.

 

[911RSR]

@rheinaoi how long does it take you from start tuning a car until setting a fastest lap?

At the last TT in BH i needed about 60 min to find a setup for the Jaaaaag that was ok and drivable (still far from perfect). Building and testing so many cars like you would take me ages!

 

[Gorefast]

I've been wrapped up in testing cars again. I must remember to actually talk about it - my brain shifts to others tasks more slowly than the standard gearboxes, you see...

If you are morbidly curious about any tune here, just ask.

Lamborghini Gallardo - 1:11.764
486hp / 1269kg [2798lbs]
My current fastest machine. Second heaviest of this bunch and it does not care. Great rotation on demand. Superior grip accelerating out of corners. 4WD crab walk off the track if you get on the power too early.

Lamborghini Aventador - 1:11.821
456hp / 1193kg [2630lbs]
Avenge the Aventador! Slower than the Gallardo because it fundamentally wants to understeer. Merciless track weapon that screams at you before it eats your opponents (and you).

Alpine A110 '17 - 1:13.549
422hp /1104kg [2434lbs]
Finally in the 1:13s! But that's still slower than I would like. A bit wild and oversteery because of the Low RPM Turbo, short wheelbase and my desperation for more grip and rotation. You can really feel the lack of aero compared to the monsters in the 1:11s.

Alpine A110 '72 - Silvia Swap - 1:15.997
330hp / 865kg [1907lbs]
This car, before the engine swap, made me a tuner. I love it to bits, but it seems to have lower overall grip no matter what I do. Lightness and stiff suspension made the car jump around over bumps. 0 front downforce hurt my soul more than it hurt lap times. Top speed was bullettrain for the power, but those braking distances....

Corvette C8 '20 - 1:12.077
432hp / 1132kg [2496lbs]
Great potential, dynamically good, but very sensitive to aggressive aero. Needs full rear downforce for me to run safely. It's not in the 1:11s because its weird traction issues under acceleration make it feel like an FR Supercharged, mid engine, grunty V8. Maybe giving it an RR weight bias will make it accelerate out of corners like an MR. You. Were. My. Chosen. One

Pagani Huayra - 1:12.076
523hp / 1372kg [3025lbs]
0:00.001 faster than the Corvette because it is the superior platform and has 33% more torque. Great aero. Very stable. Would be perfect if it naturally would rotate more. It is heavy because muscles are heavy. It has a lot of muscles.

Ferrari F40 - Enzo Swap - 1:12.780
420hp / 1097kg [2418lbs]
Ridiculously light. Neutral with some understeer. Glad to have an F40 in the 1:12s! Would like to see if 1:12s are possible with Turbo [lag] Torque. More aero than you would expect.

Porsche 930 [not]Turbo - RSR Swap - 1:13.1
432hp /1134kg [2500lbs]
Rotation in the silly chicane so unreal you will believe that the hand of God [Babis] is slapping your car's butt. All other handling aspects are strange and slightly terrible - so, it's still an old 911 ❤️ Also more aero than you would expect.

I want to test all the 911s, but I suspect I don't have time for that. And I still need to try @bliprunner's NSX🔥🔥


It's the penalties that hobble me. I cannot tell you how many laps got binned because I hit the sausage entering the chicane and had the audacity to survive. I believe I've gotten penalties in all of the corners except T1. Most of the corners feel so... odd to me.

But, the tuning keeps me coming back. The handling feel is more muted to me, but the cars that we end up building for these challenges feel very engaging.

Interesting and entertaining at the same time! I share your love for the Alpine and the MR Corvette. Keep 'em coming!

 

[rheinaoi]

@rheinaoi how long does it take you from start tuning a car until setting a fastest lap?

30 minutes to 1 hour depending on the car. Then I switch to another car... and then another...

I've touched most cars because of 550pp, 600pp, 700pp and Tormenting Gr.3 Cars with Road Cars (800pp). All of those builds and experiences helped speed up the tuning process a lot.

My process for an ATAQ build usually goes

• Fit all the regulation parts, widebody, and aero
• Dump car weight into spreadsheet to get target power
• Max front downforce, then +80 or 100 of that for rear downforce
• Set top speed in gears to ~270kph
• Drive for 3-5 laps
• Estimate car's potential in my hands
• Note all the things that annoy me
• Tweak gears
• Tweak suspension
• Tweak differential
• Tweak downforce
• Drive for 5+ laps
• Hyper fixate on goal lap time for 20+ minutes
• Optional 2nd round of tweaks
• Get annoyed by penalties, exit, switch cars