Audi returning to ALMS with LMP and GT Program (update)

[RACECAR]

Audi is courting partners for a full-time return the American Le Mans Series in 2011 and could be close to making a final decision on which team to task with fielding a combined prototype and GT program.

Audi’s previous full-time effort in the ALMS concluded after the German marque claimed the 2008 LMP1 championship with their Florida-based partners at Champion Racing.

Under the direction of team owner Dave Maraj, Champion Racing served as Audi Sport’s North American arm, while the German Joest Racing outfit, in concert with Audi Sport, looked after their European sportscar operations.

But after Audi’s shock withdrawal from the ALMS in December of 2008 (and Maraj’s financial struggles around the same time), Champion Racing closed its doors in 2009, leaving an opening for a new North American partner if and when Audi chose to return to the ALMS with a full works program.

With Audi AG and Audi North America keen to rekindle their sportscar activities in the United States, a number of potential candidates were asked to submit proposals to run a multi-year program that includes prototypes and GT cars on behalf of the Ingolstadt-based constructor.

Discussions have been ongoing for months with a number of players, and three existing teams – Penske Racing, Highcroft Racing and Wayne Taylor Racing -- have reportedly reached the final stages of the review process by Audi.

Full article here


Thoughts?


Edit: It has just been announced that Audi has pulled the plug. So no full time ALMS program for 2011.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

Id love to see Penske back in the ALMS after they left the LMP2 Porsche Spider. They know how to get work done and pick up a championship.

And as for them also having a GT car in the mix is great to here. The GT field just gets better and better with more marques entering the mix.

 

[Kylehnat]

I think it would be interesting if Wayne Taylor jumped across to ALMS. Wonder which car they want to use in GT?

 

[JohnBM01]

More than likely, I'd imagine the GT car would be the beautiful Audi R8 road car. That's only as long as people don't think that the R8 GT car will blow away everyone like... that other R8 you might have heard of before. You know, that R8 that won a few big races (like Le Mans, among others). All kidding aside, you HAVE to love the potential this brings to the already-hot GT ranks. Think Audi vs. Corvette, and not to mention Audi vs. both Ferrari and Porsche.

Whether you like Audi or not, you have to admit that sportscar racing can be quite a deal boring if you don't have a big bopper like Audi. It would be interesting to see what Audi's return in the prototype ranks will be like, and especially with the latest Audi LMP car.



Exciting news for sure. The more competition, the merrier. Sportscar racing is proof that variety is the spice of life. A return of Audi will make the ALMS hotter than ever whether you like them or not.

 

[RACECAR]

I think it would be interesting if Wayne Taylor jumped across to ALMS. Wonder which car they want to use in GT?

The R8 LMS of course. Audi have been in constant contact with the ALMS about possibly bringing it to the GTC class (not GT as I might have mislead), but it'll mean Audi will have to build a totally different spec version if they want to compete. Funny enough though, if they wanted to compete in Grand-am's GT class with it, the only adjustment for that would be no Traction Control.

 

[CAMikaze]

Wouldn't it be funny of Audi had in it's promotional photo the R8 Prototype and the R8 GT2 car and they used a caption that mentions it's racing heritage?

 

[arvin charles]

The R8 LMS of course. Audi have been in constant contact with the ALMS about possibly bringing it to the GTC class (not GT as I might have mislead), but it'll mean Audi will have to build a totally different spec version if they want to compete. Funny enough though, if they wanted to compete in Grand-am's GT class with it, the only adjustment for that would be no Traction Control.

The R8 LMS is a beast of a GT3 car! It would give the DP class a run for its money if it's to be run as it is minus tc. There's a reason why Grand Am's GT class has been neutered ever since TRG won Daytona overall in a GT3RS...

It's also why they're running GT3 Cups right now and not GT3R (s).

If GA allows GT3 spec cars, they will have to either slow down the GT class or speed up the DPs. Either way, changes need to be made.

 

[RACECAR]

The R8 LMS is a beast of a GT3 car! It would give the DP class a run for its money if it's to be run as it is minus tc. There's a reason why Grand Am's GT class has been neutered ever since TRG won Daytona overall in a GT3RS...

It's also why they're running GT3 Cups right now and not GT3R (s).

If GA allows GT3 spec cars, they will have to either slow down the GT class or speed up the DPs. Either way, changes need to be made.

Actually, the DPs had teething problems that simply made them unreliable at the time in 2003 (which is what you often get with a new car), hence why the only reason a GT class car even won the Rolex 24 at Daytona overall. The rest of that season in 2003, the GT cars (before they switched to the SGS spec rules for Cost containment, not being "slowed down" as the elitist continually claim) couldn't match pace. Also, the DP cars have far better pace then the current GT2 cars at present so they aren't as slow as you appear to overly exaggerate them to be.

 

[arvin charles]

^ They were slowed down. Why else would GA mandate that GT cars to have 5 lug nuts instead of center lock wheels that they previously had? I'll give you a hint: it's so that the Vettes, the Vipers & the 911s don't have a chance at winning Daytona overall again.

Yes, the DPs have improved quite a bit from the old days. But looking at lap times, at Mid-Ohio in 2007, LMP1/2 fastest Q time was 1:08.510 minutes for a lap, GT1 was 1:16.568 minutes and GT2 was 1:19.951. Rolex times were 1:18.374 minutes for DP and 1:25.329 minutes for GT.

 

[MatskiMonk]

The more the merrier...

 

[01GTP]

Nice to hear about Audi.

I own an A4 and really like my avatar.
Here is the last ALMS one I saw.

 

[RACECAR]

^ They were slowed down. Why else would GA mandate that GT cars to have 5 lug nuts instead of center lock wheels that they previously had? I'll give you a hint: it's so that the Vettes, the Vipers & the 911s don't have a chance at winning Daytona overall again.

You still don't appear to grasp that all those overall victories came because the prototypes failed to finish. If you would kindly drop the elitest attitude towards Grand-Am/ISC (which ironically only has three tracks on the calender) and instead watched those races, you would see that. The Vettes Vipers and Porsches had no chance in winning overall until the SRPs and DPs dropped like flies (the SRPs due to no significantly strong teams and again, the DPs with the usual Teething problems), five-stud wheels have nothing to do with slowing them down.

Yes, the DPs have improved quite a bit from the old days. But looking at lap times, at Mid-Ohio in 2007, LMP1/2 fastest Q time was 1:08.510 minutes for a lap, GT1 was 1:16.568 minutes and GT2 was 1:19.951. Rolex times were 1:18.374 minutes for DP and 1:25.329 minutes for GT.

And yet again, you use a short road course, which puts more emphasis on handling then speed, to compare laptimes. Why not compare lap times at longer tracks like Long Beach, or Miller Motorsports Park? Hell, why not Infineon Raceway?


Edit: I've decided to take the libety of doing it myself. Here's what I found with this year's pole lap around Miller Motorsports park and with the DPs and GTs:

DP: 1'43.377

GT: 1'47.667

Although by only 4 seconds, you clearly can see DPs aren't exactly tortoise slow and in actual race pace around the track with no yellow flags (at least going by Ganassi's BMW Riley since it seemed like the fastest DP overall this year), I don't see a GT2 car keeping up. Can't seem to find the others as the ALMS website has me searching terribly for Pole results as opposed to having a news archive I could easily search through

 

[arvin charles]

I've watched the last 2 Rolex 24. And I didn't use MMP because they ran different configurations this year (I was going to quote 2010 lap times).

Anyway, the point I'm saying is that the R8 LMS is much faster than the Grand Am's GT class. Did you watch this year's Spa 24? The FIA GT3 cars' pace were very close to GT2 pace. More changes are needed to be made, aside from taking away tc, in order to make sure the GT3 cars (if they end up running in GA) don't blow away the other cars.

 

[RACECAR]

I've watched the last 2 Rolex 24. And I didn't use MMP because they ran different configurations this year (I was going to quote 2010 lap times).

Hmmm, then that nullifies the pole times I put up. Do you know the GT2 pole time from Long Beach this year? I can't seem to find it.

Anyway, the point I'm saying is that the R8 LMS is much faster than the Grand Am's GT class. Did you watch this year's Spa 24? The FIA GT3 cars' pace were very close to GT2 pace. More changes are needed to be made, aside from taking away tc, in order to make sure the GT3 cars (if they end up running in GA) don't blow away the other cars.

I watched what little I could as for some reason, the stream was terrible and often stopped From what I saw, it mostly was a wet race, which usually brings the speeds down alot. I don't know if you remember the FIA GT race from a few years ago, but they were on a street circuit and when it rained, their were GT2 cars passing GT1 cars. Even the Vertigo was passing Aston Martins!! As for GT3 Grand-Am is actually considering adopting the FIA GT3 rules to their GT class, therefore making it one class. The only adjustment as I previously mentioned is the removal of TC and they are good to go, a far more favorable adjustment then having build one from scratch for the GTC class, which appears to be essentially just the Patron GT3 Series cars mixed with some of the older GT3 Cup cars. I did see the lap times and for that matter, the GT3 cars would wipe the floor with the GTC cars, possibly the LMPC category as well (which I still think doesn't have enough horsepower)

 

[The Outlaw]

The R8 LMS is a beast of a GT3 car! It would give the DP class a run for its money if it's to be run as it is minus tc. There's a reason why Grand Am's GT class has been neutered ever since TRG won Daytona overall in a GT3RS...

It's also why they're running GT3 Cups right now and not GT3R (s).

If GA allows GT3 spec cars, they will have to either slow down the GT class or speed up the DPs. Either way, changes need to be made.

Grand-Am is completely screwing Porsche in my book (or at least the teams that use Porsche equipment in GT). The Porsche that competes in GT is basically a de-tuned 380hp GT3 cup car competing against the dominant RX-8 which is a full tube frame chassis with a non-production 3-rotor engine To me this makes Grand-AM (particularly the GT series) an absolute joke, as they have basically handicapped Porsche for making a great race car (which is production based) and allowed some tube frame race car (which is not even built by Mazda) with a one off motor to dominate 👎

BTW, no way would they allow the GT3R in Grand-AM to begin with. That is a GT2 spec car which is capable of lapping just as quickly or well within range of the DP's on most circuits. That also shows you how rather unadvanced the Grand-AM series is, as a production based GT car with about the same HP more or less, is just as quick as some tube-frame, lightweight prototype racecar

 

[Clark]

The GT3R is GT3.

 

[The Outlaw]

You're right, I don't know what I was thinking The RSR is the GT2 car (which I've known for some years now...but managed to forget there )

Thanks for the correction.

 

[01GTP]

We don't have an GT3 class in the ALMS.
We do have an GTC class.

The class are:
LMP
LMPC
GT
GTC

From an article:
The GTC class will allow for more models of Porsche 911 GT3 Cup cars to race, besides the ones that compete in the Patron GT3 Challenge that have been allowed to compete this year.

We also have separate Patron GT3 events in the US, all Porsche.

 

[RACECAR]

Grand-Am is completely screwing Porsche in my book (or at least the teams that use Porsche equipment in GT). The Porsche that competes in GT is basically a de-tuned 380hp GT3 cup car competing against the dominant RX-8 which is a full tube frame chassis with a non-production 3-rotor engine To me this makes Grand-AM (particularly the GT series) an absolute joke, as they have basically handicapped Porsche for making a great race car (which is production based) and allowed some tube frame race car (which is not even built by Mazda) with a one off motor to dominate 👎

Ok, how exactly is Grand-Am screwing Porsche? So because Porsche aren't winning as much as you like, they are getting screwed? Then you won't like whats been happening the last few years in the GT classes in europe ever since the F430 showed up. Last I checked, the Corvettes, the Camaros, the BMW and even the dominate Pontiacs from years ago (before Speedsource came to the GT class) are also tube-framed and guess what? They also are not built by their respective Manufacterers. Oh and by the way, Porsche actually made a Grand-Am spec 911 GT3 to the Prep 2 rules of the GT class so its not as if they are totally ganged up on. You also seemed to miss Porsche completely dominating when Grand-AM first switched to the SGS spec rules in 2005. They aren't being screwed, the competition is simply better and has caught up.

 

[SuperShouden]

NICE! An Audi R8 LMS in GT and the R15 or it's replacement in LMP1? Awesome! or maybe it'll be the new 2012 A4 e-tron:

 

[The Outlaw]

Ok, how exactly is Grand-Am screwing Porsche? So because Porsche aren't winning as much as you like, they are getting screwed? Then you won't like whats been happening the last few years in the GT classes in europe ever since the F430 showed up..

Because they are using a production based car that is purposely handicapped so that a tube frame/purpose built race car (with some lookalike body panels and an emblem) can dominate it (as we saw this year in the case of the SS RX8). It's bad enough that the GT3 has to race against purpose built tube framed cars, let alone when the GT3 has to run de-tuned (from the production models output) so that the other cars can beat it And as far as the F430 beating the GT3 in FIA, that's fine...it's actually based on a production based F430, not some random tube frame chassis with F430 body panels and an emblem.

Last I checked, the Corvettes, the Camaros, the BMW and even the dominate Pontiacs from years ago (before Speedsource came to the GT class) are also tube-framed and guess what? They also are not built by their respective Manufacterers. .

I already knew that. IMO it's pretty laughable and pointless having tube framed cars racing against production based cars (the GT3).

Oh and by the way, Porsche actually made a Grand-Am spec 911 GT3 to the Prep 2 rules of the GT class so its not as if they are totally ganged up on. You also seemed to miss Porsche completely dominating when Grand-AM first switched to the SGS spec rules in 2005. They aren't being screwed, the competition is simply better and has caught up.

Yeeaaa, thanks to the fact that the other Manufacturers can't compete with their production derived vehicles so they have purpose built race chassis made up and one off engines thrown in Sounds fair to me, especially when they tweak regulations to put the production based cars at a disadvantage

 

[RACECAR]

Yeeaaa, thanks to the fact that the other Manufacturers can't compete with their production derived vehicles so they have purpose built race chassis made up and one off engines thrown in Sounds fair to me, especially when they tweak regulations to put the production based cars at a disadvantage

Funny how you only bold that part and completely miss this bit:

Porsche actually made a Grand-Am spec 911 GT3 to the Prep 2 rules of the GT class

So how is it only poor Porsche getting screwed when they themselves made a Grand-Am Specific version? Really all I appear to see in your posts is elitism for Porsche. I would like it if you stopped with all this belly aching on how Porsche is getting treated unfairly. I give you facts on how even with a more specific compliant version of their car, they get beat and you ignore it completely.

Edit: Went over the rules just for the sake of argument and no where does it seem to penalise using production based chassis so I again think you've gone overboard with Porsche being screwed. Again, let me remind that at the time the GT class changed, They dominated even against tube-framed BMWs from the World Challenge series.

 

[The Outlaw]

To answer your question - Because the good old regular Cup Car is too quick to compete, so Grand-Am rules force them to produce a detuned/Prep 2 spec in order to allow the tube frame cars to dominate 👍

I give you facts on how even with a more specific compliant version of their car, they get beat and you ignore it completely.

I'm not ignoring anything.

 

[RACECAR]

To answer your question - Because the good old regular Cup Car is too quick to compete, so Grand-Am rules force them to produce a detuned/Prep 2 spec in order to allow the tube frame cars to dominate 👍

And yet Porsche couldn't have easily for instance, approached Bill Riley or Max Crawford for a partnership to develop it like Mazda has to an extent? Again, you make it sound like Porsche is completely defenseless. All Grand-Am did was make the rule, it was (and still is) up to Porsche if they want to go with a production based car or a tubed-framed car. There's also plenty of chassis constructors they could easily partner with if they wanted to.

 

[The Outlaw]

And yet Porsche couldn't have easily built one of their own from scratch? They couldn't have approached Bill Riley or Max Crawford for a partnership to develop it like Mazda has?.

Why should you have to develop a tube frame chassis in order to be competitive, simply because the regulations have put unreasonable handicaps on your production based race car? To me this shows how meaningless the GT series is in Grand-AM.

Again, you make it sound like Porsche is completely defenseless. All Grand-Am did was make the rule, it was (and still is) up to Porsche if they want to go with a production based car or a tubed-framed car. There's also plenty of chassis constructors they could easily partner with if they wanted to.

Doesn't make much sense to me...but I guess that's what it might take to win at the current moment in time.

 

[RACECAR]

Why should you have to develop a tube frame chassis in order to be competitive, simply because the regulations have put unreasonable handicaps on your production based race car? To me this shows how meaningless the GT series is in Grand-AM.

Allow me to answer that question with a question: Why would even bring the same prodution-based car that competes under a different set of rules into a series knowing full well their rules are completely different and may involve some heavy modifications? Why not make a Production based car Or Tube-Framed car specific to the rules instead well in advance?

Doesn't make much sense to me...but I guess that's what it might take to win at the current moment in time.

Not to say they have to as Pratt & Miller are a good example of not relying on the DP contructors, but its an option thats right there if they are willing to take it.

 

[01GTP]

Here is a post from earlier this year about the Porsche/RX-8 discussion.

http://www.theracersgroup.com/news/show.php?id=449
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
March 8, 2010
TRG MAINTAINS TOP-FIVE IN POINTS AFTER GRAND PRIX OF MIAMI

After a tough weekend for the team, TRG held their ground to survive both the GRAND-AM Rolex Sports Car Series presented by Crown Royal Cask No. 16 as well as the Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge with top-10 finishes, keeping the team in the top-five points positions in both series.

Homestead-Miami speedway, featuring both a tight infield configuration in combination with a banked oval designed for NASCAR, was expected to be a difficult track for TRG’s Porsches and Porsches in general. In the Rolex Series, the series-spec Pirelli tire really rewards the tube-framed chassis such as the Mazdas, Camaros, and Corvettes. Driving in the No. 66 AXA Porsche 911 GT3 Cup car, drivers Ted Ballou and Andy Lally fought tire wear all race to bring the car home in a steady eighth place, finishing as the top Porsche and keeping the duo fifth in driver points, as well as placing TRG third in team points.

Although the race was incident free for the AXA Porsche, driver Andy Lally was disappointed with the challenge to keep the car competitive.

“We just couldn’t run the pace that the tube-frame cars could this weekend, it’s extremely frustrating to race like this,” stated Lally, a three-time series champion. “When I got in the car I did everything I could to keep us on the lead lap, but after only a few laps the rear tires just burned off, and we were just doing what we could to hold on.”



For Team Owner Kevin Buckler, all eyes are forward on the next steps for the team.

“We really wanted to show well for AXA this weekend, they’ve been such a big supporter and their commitment to our team and GRAND-AM couldn’t have been more evident than with their sponsoring of both programs,” stated Buckler. “It’s a shame we have a set of rules and tires that won’t let a Porsche compete. Porsche and TRG have been part of GRAND-AM since the beginning, but right now there’s just no way for these cars to compete. When you have two great drivers and a great team, execute flawlessly and get lapped by lesser drivers and finish eighth——something is horribly wrong with the rules. We have been saying it for a long long time but we are now at a crossroads and the other Porsche teams are looking to exit the series. We will run our brand where we can be competitive. I was, however, VERY happy to welcome Enrique to our team. He did a fantastic job and was a real pro. He will have a great future here at TRG.”

I skipped some other news and hi-lited the comments about the reason RX-8's are doing well, besides the fact they're great cars.

 

[The Outlaw]

“It’s a shame we have a set of rules and tires that won’t let a Porsche compete. Porsche and TRG have been part of GRAND-AM since the beginning, but right now there’s just no way for these cars to compete. When you have two great drivers and a great team, execute flawlessly and get lapped by lesser drivers and finish eighth——something is horribly wrong with the rules. We have been saying it for a long long time but we are now at a crossroads and the other Porsche teams are looking to exit the series. We will run our brand where we can be competitive."

I think that says it all. Maybe I'm just a "Porsche elitest" though

I skipped some other news and hi-lited the comments about the reason RX-8's are doing well, besides the fact they're great cars.

Yea, the Grand-AM RX-8 is a great race car no doubht...it's just too bad it shares absolutely no DNA with the production model RX-8 (like the series should be about IMO) though.

 

[Northstar]

Here I was thinking that a thread titled "Audi returning to ALMS with LMP and GT Program" would be discussing Audi's return to ALMS. Instead I see a 🤬 fest about the Grand Am series.


Anyways, I'm very happy to hear Audi is returning, hopefully it can bring some excitement back to the LMP class and ad some more to the GT class(not that it needs it).

 

[RACECAR]

I think that says it all. Maybe I'm just a "Porsche elitest" though

The way your posts come off make it sound like Grand-Am is screwing Porsche on purpose, thus making you sound like an elitist. Again, why doesn't Porsche simply make a tube framed car instead of just sit there with a clearly inferior car?

Here I was thinking that a thread titled "Audi returning to ALMS with LMP and GT Program" would be discussing Audi's return to ALMS. Instead I see a 🤬 fest about the Grand Am series

Sorry you had to see that, we still have elitists that won't leave Grand-Am alone.


BREAKING NEWS

In surprise call Friday morning to the three teams, they were informed that a full-time LMP1 and GT program will not go forward, and that the marque will only return in 2011 for the two Intercontinental Le Mans Cup events, held in conjunction with the 12 Hours of Sebring and Petit Le Mans, with an effort run by the factory Audi Sport team.

The choice by Audi to change their plans so late in the process was entirely unexpected, but the reason for the cancellations of the 2011 ALMS plans reportedly had nothing to do with the teams or their proposals.

A rift between the parent Audi AG firm in Germany and Audi North America over the funding of the program is believed to be the at the center of the project's end.

Last-minute questions as to whether Audi NA would be able to uphold their share of the budget obligation for 2011 -- something they reportedly fell short on during Audi's last full-time ALMS effort -- caused the Audi AG board to cancel the brand's full-time return to the ALMS

Full Article

So long story short, the people in ingolstadt have no faith in their North American counterparts to uphold the budget for such a program. Once again, politics win On the bright side though, it appears their GT program could continue as they are now looking to instead Sub-contract rather then heavily invest in a American-based Customer support.