Audio reproduction in GT5P

[Ardius]

I know that the sounds are authentic and that they are tweaked a little to sound right for the game, but as someone said, the eventual recreations in the game sound filtered somewhat. It's like the rawness? of real life is lost.
Take Test Drive Unlimited for example.
If anyone has played it i think they would agree about the engine sounds in the game:
.FORD GT-What an amazing sound, like a pride of lions roaring in unison. Also, when changing gears you can hear a distinct rumbling sound in between rev loss, sends shivers down my spine!
.CAMARO -Again the distinct rumble at higher rpm's and between gear shifts
.MASERATI-Beautiful recreation of the real thing....etc.

Look, i'm not asking for an over the top audio track such as the need for speed series(even though they sound awesome), just dress it up a little to convey a sense of presence that these machines utterly deserve.

I agree, rather than just taking a real sound sample and leaving as is, they should try and enhance it a bit to really recreate the same sound but coming from a TV, because in the end, you want to hear something that is close to what its like to be sitting in the real car, not hear what the real car sounds like but through a TV.
In other words, they should compensate a bit more for the fact that you aren't actually in the real car.

 

[Saladine12]

I agree, rather than just taking a real sound sample and leaving as is, they should try and enhance it a bit to really recreate the same sound but coming from a TV, because in the end, you want to hear something that is close to what its like to be sitting in the real car, not hear what the real car sounds like but through a TV.
In other words, they should compensate a bit more for the fact that you aren't actually in the real car.

Exactly, nicely put.

 

[RedOak]

Look, i'm not asking for an over the top audio track such as the need for speed series(even though they sound awesome), just dress it up a little to convey a sense of presence that these machines utterly deserve.

but no.... people don't want "dressed up" sounds... they want "realism"... and now that they have it, they all think it sucks...

You make a very good point here: Good sounds, Like good Graphics, like good effects... are "dressed up"... they MUST be surrealistic in order to "wow" us... there's nothing more boring then just plain realism because no matter what dev teams do, it'll never look or sound as good as the human's emotive memory.

When you go to a race day and see that Ford GT swing past you, it sounds freakin' awesome... but its also that your whole body felt it... the mass displacement, the "bass", the vibrations, the whole emotive state in which you were at the time... then when you look at your TV... it might "Sound" the same, but its definitely not as "awesome"... because you're not really "there" and your whole being remembers it being a lot better... that's why "Hollywood" for lack of better example, "Dress things up" to make them surrealistic... that way, the audience is still convinced its awesome...

In the industry, we call it "Credible" instead of "Realistic"... so you get real looking things (in this instance; Cars) but you make them "bigger then life" in order to convince the audience that they're really there. Which Gran Turismo 5 Prologue doesn't do. It sounds normal, and flat, and distant, and boring; while other games like the much hated NFSU or GRID do it so well... because they went overboard, they pushed it all to create an emotional response.

As a matter of fact, the same can be said about the graphics of GT5p, but this ain't the place for it.

 

[homeforsummer]

I agree, rather than just taking a real sound sample and leaving as is, they should try and enhance it a bit to really recreate the same sound but coming from a TV, because in the end, you want to hear something that is close to what its like to be sitting in the real car, not hear what the real car sounds like but through a TV.
In other words, they should compensate a bit more for the fact that you aren't actually in the real car.

The most realistic and relevant post so far 👍

 

[Saladine12]

but no.... people don't want "dressed up" sounds... they want "realism"... and now that they have it, they all think it sucks...

You make a very good point here: Good sounds, Like good Graphics, like good effects... are "dressed up"... they MUST be surrealistic in order to "wow" us... there's nothing more boring then just plain realism because no matter what dev teams do, it'll never look or sound as good as the human's emotive memory.

When you go to a race day and see that Ford GT swing past you, it sounds freakin' awesome... but its also that your whole body felt it... the mass displacement, the "bass", the vibrations, the whole emotive state in which you were at the time... then when you look at your TV... it might "Sound" the same, but its definitely not as "awesome"... because you're not really "there" and your whole being remembers it being a lot better... that's why "Hollywood" for lack of better example, "Dress things up" to make them surrealistic... that way, the audience is still convinced its awesome...

In the industry, we call it "Credible" instead of "Realistic"... so you get real looking things (in this instance; Cars) but you make them "bigger then life" in order to convince the audience that they're really there. Which Gran Turismo 5 Prologue doesn't do. It sounds normal, and flat, and distant, and boring; while other games like the much hated NFSU or GRID do it so well... because they went overboard, they pushed it all to create an emotional response.

As a matter of fact, the same can be said about the graphics of GT5p, but this ain't the place for it.

At first i thought you were mocking, but then you drilled my point home perfectly!
Nice wording there, 'Credible', 'Emotional'.
I honestly hope, i really,really do hope that Polyphony reads this thread because i believe that a change in the audio department can go a long way in creating an even more immersive experience than it already is.

 

[Scotracer]

The cars generally sound pretty good on GT5P to be honest. These are road cars, so they don't far, pop and bang generally (only when they get very hot). The one car that sounds way off is the F2007...

Real thing:



GT5P:


And exterior...

Real thing



GT5P:



Where did that echo come from on the GT car? Very odd...

 

[RedOak]

At first i thought you were mocking, but then you drilled my point home perfectly!

👍

 

[Kryz11]

Well, the F1 needs major work on the SOUND lol

Maybe PD have the right tools to capture great sound.. It's just the guys coding it suck?
Some game developers do make great games but always lack in few areas.. And sound is a biggie.

 

[91hondawagon]

The best solution so far for the flat sound is a good home theater system. Turn the volume way up, heavy on the bass, and turn the annoying (IMO) BGMs off. Surround sound is crucial. If the room vibrates when a Ferrari goes by, you've done well.

 

[JosVerstappen]

I think the outside sounds of the F1 pretty much sound like each other, maybe they overdone the echo effect a bit.

 

[RedOak]

The best solution so far for the flat sound is a good home theater system. Turn the volume way up, heavy on the bass, and turn the annoying (IMO) BGMs off. Surround sound is crucial. If the room vibrates when a Ferrari goes by, you've done well.

i have a very good sound system (5.1) and i disagree... it just sounds flat louder.

 

[Saladine12]

The best solution so far for the flat sound is a good home theater system. Turn the volume way up, heavy on the bass, and turn the annoying (IMO) BGMs off. Surround sound is crucial. If the room vibrates when a Ferrari goes by, you've done well.

The problem with that is that not only does the engine volume go up but also the annoying road noise, the tyre squeel, crowd and menu sfx as well.
Believe me, i turn the surround sound up to the max just to hear the engine/exhaust effects, but at the same time, the Mrs. charges through the door waving her hands around trying to get a word in,telling me to turn it down because the neighbour 2 blocks away is complaining!

 

[JM1681]

...These are road cars, so they don't far, pop and bang generally...

A Ferrari by any name, farts, pops, and bangs

IMHO, a decent portion of the in-game cars are loud enough and unrestricted enough in stock trim to have a good deal of extra-curricular exhaust noise that is not present in the game.

As for the tuned cars, sure they have a different sound, but do they sound as they should; not by a long shot. Tuned cars like some of those available in the game should sound as though they are about to die at idle (Or IOW, awesome).

 

[Kryz11]

The best solution so far for the flat sound is a good home theater system. Turn the volume way up, heavy on the bass, and turn the annoying (IMO) BGMs off. Surround sound is crucial. If the room vibrates when a Ferrari goes by, you've done well.

I have a nice 5.1, not best of the line, but room just shakes.. well the enitre house.. ITS a freaking awesome sound...
Music off for both REPLAY and Gameplay
I use Small theater Options works best for my setup. People need to experiment.

 

[Ardius]

but no.... people don't want "dressed up" sounds... they want "realism"... and now that they have it, they all think it sucks...

You make a very good point here: Good sounds, Like good Graphics, like good effects... are "dressed up"... they MUST be surrealistic in order to "wow" us... there's nothing more boring then just plain realism because no matter what dev teams do, it'll never look or sound as good as the human's emotive memory.

When you go to a race day and see that Ford GT swing past you, it sounds freakin' awesome... but its also that your whole body felt it... the mass displacement, the "bass", the vibrations, the whole emotive state in which you were at the time... then when you look at your TV... it might "Sound" the same, but its definitely not as "awesome"... because you're not really "there" and your whole being remembers it being a lot better... that's why "Hollywood" for lack of better example, "Dress things up" to make them surrealistic... that way, the audience is still convinced its awesome...

In the industry, we call it "Credible" instead of "Realistic"... so you get real looking things (in this instance; Cars) but you make them "bigger then life" in order to convince the audience that they're really there. Which Gran Turismo 5 Prologue doesn't do. It sounds normal, and flat, and distant, and boring; while other games like the much hated NFSU or GRID do it so well... because they went overboard, they pushed it all to create an emotional response.

As a matter of fact, the same can be said about the graphics of GT5p, but this ain't the place for it.

Hmm, while I agree with you from the stance of a games developer, in this case, I'd disagree and say the perfect realism is good, the issue is that the percieved realism is that they are making the sound effects just like they are in the real cars. However, we are not in the real cars, so in trying to be realistic, it ends up being less realistic because of the actual atmosphere we are playing the game in.
In other words, they should try and make it as realistic as possbile but keeping in mind the actual scenario the player is playing the game in. If they were sitting in the cockpit of a real car, on a real track, moving along at high speed with the best surround sound system currently available and they were playing the game, then the current sounds might sound more realistic and hit the player harder. However, we are not playing the game in such a scenario and as such they need to take a few extra steps to bridge the gap between feeling the realism and knowing you're playing a video game.

Realism is not necessarily always boring, it's just how well implemented the realism factor is by the developer. Bridging the gap by making it "larger than life" in turn makes it more realistic, but then I suppose it's all a matter of point of view really.
Personally, I don't think exaggerating the sounds to give them more impact is less realistic, it's simply making up for the other sensations we would normally feel in real life and in turn making the game more realistic, at least in terms of the experience.

 

[JM1681]

...people don't want "dressed up" sounds... they want "realism"... and now that they have it, they all think it sucks...

No. We do not have realism by a long shot.



That right there is an M3 CSL, with just straight pipes. Granted a rather extreme display, these are the kind of sounds that are missing from GT5 and they're not just found in race cars.

 

[Saladine12]

No. We do not have realism by a long shot.


That right there is an M3 CSL, with just straight pipes. Granted a rather extreme display, these are the kind of sounds that are missing from GT5 and they're not just found in race cars.

Wow!
See, it's not a race car yet it sounds like one. Polyphony need to step up i'm afraid.

 

[Scotracer]

Well, the F1 needs major work on the SOUND lol

Maybe PD have the right tools to capture great sound.. It's just the guys coding it suck?
Some game developers do make great games but always lack in few areas.. And sound is a biggie.

I'm not sure what's going on. They've missed so many samples out. In GT4 they had backfire, traction control and better Turbo/Supercharger sounds. Why are they missing from GT5?

I think the outside sounds of the F1 pretty much sound like each other, maybe they overdone the echo effect a bit.

If you listen, the interior sounds and exterior sounds are pretty much identical on GT5 -- in real life that is far from the case. The interior sounds in real life are very mechanical and coarse whereas outside, they are piercing and, as someone who's attended more than 10 F1 events, they have SO many other sounds (they fart, bang and pop like there's no tomorrow).

A Ferrari by any name, farts, pops, and bangs

IMHO, a decent portion of the in-game cars are loud enough and unrestricted enough in stock trim to have a good deal of extra-curricular exhaust noise that is not present in the game.

As for the tuned cars, sure they have a different sound, but do they sound as they should; not by a long shot. Tuned cars like some of those available in the game should sound as though they are about to die at idle (Or IOW, awesome).

Well yes, a Ferrari may do it but there are many other cars in the game. The Nissan GTR doesn't sound particularly racey and neither do many of the cars. That link you gave to the M3 CSL isn't really valid as it is without silencers and cats...it would sound more vicious.

And yes, the tuned cars sound different but not correct. Forza 2, as a reference implements the change in audio after tuning VERY well. I own a Honda Integra Type R with Mugen intake and exhaust and when I added these parts to the stock car in the game, it sounded freakishly close to what my car sounds like...especially the transition on to VTEC.

 

[Ardius]

I'm not sure what's going on. They've missed so many samples out. In GT4 they had backfire, traction control and better Turbo/Supercharger sounds. Why are they missing from GT5?

Well thats an easy question to answer - because its not GT5, its GT5 Prologue, lol. They are probably still working on them and didn't feel they needed to be in Prologue to show off just yet.

 

[sxboyd]

Well thats an easy question to answer - because its not GT5, its GT5 Prologue, lol. They are probably still working on them and didn't feel they needed to be in Prologue to show off just yet.

Yeah. I can't wait to hear the real deal. I am using a 5.1 amplifier and it sounds pretty golod, but it still has room for improvement.

 

[the Interceptor]

but no.... people don't want "dressed up" sounds... they want "realism"... and now that they have it, they all think it sucks...

You make a very good point here: Good sounds, Like good Graphics, like good effects... are "dressed up"... they MUST be surrealistic in order to "wow" us... there's nothing more boring then just plain realism because no matter what dev teams do, it'll never look or sound as good as the human's emotive memory.

When you go to a race day and see that Ford GT swing past you, it sounds freakin' awesome... but its also that your whole body felt it... the mass displacement, the "bass", the vibrations, the whole emotive state in which you were at the time... then when you look at your TV... it might "Sound" the same, but its definitely not as "awesome"... because you're not really "there" and your whole being remembers it being a lot better... that's why "Hollywood" for lack of better example, "Dress things up" to make them surrealistic... that way, the audience is still convinced its awesome...

In the industry, we call it "Credible" instead of "Realistic"... so you get real looking things (in this instance; Cars) but you make them "bigger then life" in order to convince the audience that they're really there. Which Gran Turismo 5 Prologue doesn't do. It sounds normal, and flat, and distant, and boring; while other games like the much hated NFSU or GRID do it so well... because they went overboard, they pushed it all to create an emotional response.

As a matter of fact, the same can be said about the graphics of GT5p, but this ain't the place for it.

Very well put! To put it in perspective for me and probably for others too: the Ferrari 430 sounds very close to reality in the game, but there's not the slightest factor moving inside me that makes me want to rev the ... you know what ... out of it. You know you would want to do that in real life, and you know you should want to do that in a game. But Prologue doesn't provide that thrill, and as much as I love realism, I think it should do.

 

[91hondawagon]

Remember vehicle sounds from GT4? The cars sounded so-so. But remember the opening video, the one with Van Halen's "Panama" blaring behind images of racing cars? The car sounds in that opening sequence were MUCH better than the actual in-game sounds. The Toyota 88C-V sounded especially good. I'll even dare to say that those sounds are better than those in GT5.

The racing starts at around the 2:10 mark. Take a listen:



To me, those sounds aren't flat or boring in the least. Why can't we have sounds like that now?!

 

[JM1681]

...Well yes, a Ferrari may do it but there are many other cars in the game....

Yes there are.

Cars like Aston, Lotus, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Ford and Chevrolet. In reality, all of those cars pop and bang on overrun and decel. And yes, I have driven one of each (Ok, ok, I haven't driven an Aston yet, but I have bared witness ). I'm not saying said cars sound bad, or that all the cars in the game should have such sounds because that wouldn't be honest to the real product. The truth is, all of the cars sound TOO perfect. The fact that there are not even the vaguest hiccups or burbles in any of them is the issue

Owning the car you do, you can't tell me the GT5 representation is 100% accurate (In terms of engine, and exhaust tones).

...That link you gave to the M3 CSL isn't really valid as it is without silencers and cats...it would sound more vicious...

Thats why I pointed it out

 

[AsteroidSHDTV]

GT5 is way better than GT4 in the sound department, but that's not actually saying much, as GT4 had horrid, bland audio.

I'd say GT5's biggest problem is the dynamic range of the sounds. (That's the "lifeless" issue everybody brings up.)
It's like there's an upper/lower cap on how loud each sound can be, like the loudest noise coming from the engine is only 10dB away from the quietest.
The F2007 has the same amount of "information" in its engine noise as other cars, but because its so loud its much more apparent how crap it is.

An example:
* Imagine a kiddie roller coaster at a fair; it starts at ground level and peaks at 20ft in the air. This'll be equivalent to a real-life 350Z's noise.
* Imagine a full-blown coaster that ranges from ground to 200ft in the air - this is a real F1 car.
* Imagine jumping as high as you can - 3 feet. This is the GT5 350Z.
* Finally, imagine going up to the roof of a 20 story building, and jumping as high as you can again. You'll reach 203ft, but return to 200 again. This is GT5 F2007. You may be 200ft up in the air, but obviously its not the same as the big coaster.

Does that make sense? NEEDS MORE DYNAMIC RANGE!

 

[Kryz11]

I'm not sure what's going on. They've missed so many samples out. In GT4 they had backfire, traction control and better Turbo/Supercharger sounds. Why are they missing from GT5?

I think they DID not wanted too much time on a PROLOGUE in terms of SOUND department. It is very hard and time costly to make it good. SO i think they just did a quick version and by GT5 Many many things will improve.

I remeber first Spec I GT5. Few sounds were different, and we had that GT4 tire squeak. Now with spec II you can berly hear the Tires when you drive fast and controllable (👍) but as well the sound is littile deeper too 👍
So I have no doubt that GT5 will have even more realistic Engine, tire, backfire, race car, etc sounds

 

[Saladine12]

Well, IF they are not going to remake or resample the sounds, which is a big mistake imo, then at the very least give us the option to lower the volume for road, tyre and crowd seperatley rather than globally.
I'm astounded at why they haven't given us this option to begin with!
I can understand the hurricane brewing outside the car but what's the deal within the car?
I know the windows are closed yet it feels like i'm driving an open top with all doors open!
Someone stated that the tyre squeel has changed but i'm at loss to hear the difference. Same old, annoying squeel as previous GT's i say.
Look, i love GT as much as the next bloke, but some things just have to change and sound is a department that needs a massive overhaul.

 

[Sa!!yz~Rage]

I don't think PD fully understands audio recording, that's my opinion. They've never gotten it right or even close for that matter.

In saying that, recreating 'real' audio under racing conditions is a huge huge task and would cost a ton to do correctly, probably more than the actual coding costs.

GT5P is an improvement over GT4 that's for sure in most areas, it's still not great, but we'll see what the final version has in it. I'm waiting until then to render an opinion. 👍

 

[homeforsummer]

GT5 is way better than GT4 in the sound department, but that's not actually saying much, as GT4 had horrid, bland audio.

I'd say GT5's biggest problem is the dynamic range of the sounds. (That's the "lifeless" issue everybody brings up.)
It's like there's an upper/lower cap on how loud each sound can be, like the loudest noise coming from the engine is only 10dB away from the quietest.
The F2007 has the same amount of "information" in its engine noise as other cars, but because its so loud its much more apparent how crap it is.

An example:
* Imagine a kiddie roller coaster at a fair; it starts at ground level and peaks at 20ft in the air. This'll be equivalent to a real-life 350Z's noise.
* Imagine a full-blown coaster that ranges from ground to 200ft in the air - this is a real F1 car.
* Imagine jumping as high as you can - 3 feet. This is the GT5 350Z.
* Finally, imagine going up to the roof of a 20 story building, and jumping as high as you can again. You'll reach 203ft, but return to 200 again. This is GT5 F2007. You may be 200ft up in the air, but obviously its not the same as the big coaster.

Does that make sense? NEEDS MORE DYNAMIC RANGE!

Very good point, and nice analogy 👍

A Ferrari 430 in real life - it's got a nice noise at idle, and it's louder than a normal road car, but it's still pretty quiet. When a driver is opening the taps, it makes a hell of a din. In GT5P it goes from quiet to slightly less quiet.

So yeah I agree with you, the sounds are modelled realistically but not outputted realistically.

 

[JM1681]

...recreating 'real' audio under racing conditions is a huge huge task and would cost a ton to do correctly...

Just get the cars on a dyno and run'em up and down. The time they spend recording audio, they could easily tote in a portable dyno and use it in conjunction with their typical methods.

 

[Sa!!yz~Rage]

Just get the cars on a dyno and run'em up and down. The time they spend recording audio, they could easily tote in a portable dyno and use it in conjunction with their typical methods.

Wrong, wrong. (Not dissin' ya, just the wrong approach.)

This does not capture the engine, transmission and differential under load. This is what most games, I suspect do and that is why the cars don't sound right in racing mode.

Straight cut gears make a very distinct sound during a race, not something you get on a dyno. All these sounds are affected by the cars traction for instance, as the suspension loads and unloads under acceleration there are changes in pitch, compression etc. Those are the things that are missing, not only from GTx but most racing games.

As I said before, a huge undertaking. Micing the cars and tracks for each? Not an audio contract I'd want, fun but what a nightmare..