Australian Formula 1 Grand Prix 2009

[SagarisGTB]

I cant help notice that since Hamilton got DQd theres been alot of talk how this desicion is stupid and how the stewards/FIA are messing up. But no one was saying too much when Trulli was pretty much DQd (25 seconds when the field is bunched up behind a safety car) for doing NOTHING wrong at all. I have to ask those defending Hamilton/Mclaren now, why werent they defending Trulli/Toyota on Sunday? 👎

 

[niky]

I thought the penalty itself was kind of stupid. Trulli's was an honest mistake, but a clear violation, if Hamilton was not actively letting him pass. If Hamilton DID let him past, like he was telling the whole world in the post-race interview, Trulli's 3rd place should have stood. And it does. What I don't understand is how the FIA muddled everything up and contradicted themselves two or three times in the span of one week.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I cant help notice that since Hamilton got DQd theres been alot of talk how this desicion is stupid and how the stewards/FIA are messing up. But no one was saying too much when Trulli was pretty much DQd (25 seconds when the field is bunched up behind a safety car) for doing NOTHING wrong at all. I have to ask those defending Hamilton/Mclaren now, why werent they defending Trulli/Toyota on Sunday? 👎

At the time of the incident, it looked like a clear-cut case of Trulli retaking his position and there was nothing from the broadcast to suggest Hamilton had been told to let him back through. And that was the way Hamilton told it to the stewards: that Trulli had gone off and had re-passed him further around the circuit. We didn't even see Trulli retake the position; Martin Brundle noticed that it was back the way it had been beforehand and questioned it.

I can't account for the people defending Hamilton. But I can account for them not defending Trulli: based on what we saw and heard, it looked like an open-and-shut case.

 

[Dazzla]

The FIA have continued the 2009 season where they left the 2008 season...continuing to do all they can to ensure that McLaren and Hamilton can not find a way to succeed and this is very evident of this.

I'm a huge F1 fan, but I cannot bear watching this, it's very disappointing and VERY in-just.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The FIA have continued the 2009 season where they left the 2008 season...continuing to do all they can to ensure that McLaren and Hamilton can not find a way to succeed and this is very evident of this.

Okay, let me ask you this: what requires less suspension od disbelief?

1) That the FIA is corrupt, and receiving payments from another person - Ferrari seems to be the popular choice here - with everyone from the race marshalls up to Mosely, which is potentially dozens of people, all being on the payroll. Or ...
2) Leiws Hamilton and McLaren are genuinely making the kind of mistakes which are punishable by penalties.

I don't see what the problem is here: Lewis Hamilton was found to be in the wrong because he did not tell the stewards the truth. How much plainer can I make it? This isn't some case of a questionable pass like at Spa, this is McLaren and Hamilton knowingly withholding information from the FIA, and by doing so, affecting the race result in such a way that an innocent party to all of this - Jarno Trulli - is unfairly awarded a penalty and loses his podium and six hard-earned championship points.

In short, there is no conspiracy!

 

[SagarisGTB]

At the time of the incident, it looked like a clear-cut case of Trulli retaking his position and there was nothing from the broadcast to suggest Hamilton had been told to let him back through. And that was the way Hamilton told it to the stewards: that Trulli had gone off and had re-passed him further around the circuit. We didn't even see Trulli retake the position; Martin Brundle noticed that it was back the way it had been beforehand and questioned it.

I can't account for the people defending Hamilton. But I can account for them not defending Trulli: based on what we saw and heard, it looked like an open-and-shut case.

No it did not. By sunday night, Mclaren were saying they let Trulli through and Trulli was saying Hamilton slowed down alot and he had no choice but to pass. The fact that people were accepting the penalty shocked me to be honest.

 

[Scaff]

Because Hamilton and McLaren lied to the stewards. And in doing so, it looked as if Trulli ran off the road and the reclaimed his position from Hamilton when he shouldn't have. The end result was that Trulli got a penalty he didn't deserve afted Hamilton and McLaren engaged in entrapment and got an extra position out of it.

Sorry but have the FIA released a full transcript of the stewards enquiry?

Unless they have you and I and no one here, knows exactly what was said by who. Currently we have half the facts in this situation, we know exactly what was said over the radio, but to be able to compare that to what was said in the stewards enquiry will require a copy of that transcript.

No it did not. By sunday night, Mclaren were saying they let Trulli through and Trulli was saying Hamilton slowed down alot and he had no choice but to pass. The fact that people were accepting the penalty shocked me to be honest.

And Martin Whitmarsh from McLaren disputes that in the interview he gave....

Q. Lewis after the race only spoke about getting past Trulli, but never mentioned stopping and giving the place back…

MW: He didn't stop, and the telemetry data which was shown to the stewards today showed that the lap on which he was overtaken was no different from the succeeding lap that was under the safety car. It was difficult conditions but there was no evidence from the data that Lewis did anything that induced Trulli to go past.

In my opinion the only way this will ever reach a conclusion (and even then I am not 100% certain) is if full transcripts of the radio chatter, stewards enquiry and telemetry from both cars in released.

After all it is no more of less possible that any of the other scenarios being discussed that while LH was discussing the situation with the pit-lane, that he did not slow and that Trulli passed him.

The radio chatter (which is the only part for which we know exactly what was said) could just as easily support this as anything else)....

Team: OK Lewis, you should need to make sure your delta is positive over the safety car line. After
the safety car line the delta doesn’t matter but no overtaking. No overtaking.
Lewis Hamilton: The Toyota went off in a line at the second corner, ..., is this OK?
Team: Understood, Lewis. We’ll confirm and get back to you.
LH: He was off the track. He went wide.
Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.
LH: OK.
LH: He’s slowed right down in front of me.
Team: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are
talking to Charlie.
LH: I let him past already.
Team: OK, Lewis. That’s fine. That’s fine. Hold position. Hold position.
LH: Tell Charlie I already overtook him. I just let him past.
Team: I understand Lewis. We are checking. Now can we go to yellow G 5, yellow Golf 5.
LH: I don’t have to let him past I should be able to take that position back, if he made a mistake.
Team: Yes, we understand Lewis. Let’s just do it by the book. We are asking Charlie now. You are
in P4. If you hold this position. Just keep it together.
Team: OK Lewis, your KERS is full, your KERS is full. Just be aware. You can go back to black
F2, black Foxtrott 2.
LH: Any news from Charlie whether I can take it back or not.
Team: Still waiting on a response Lewis, still waiting.
Team: Lewis, work on your brakes please. Front brakes are cold.
Team: If we are able to use one KERS that would be good. If you deploy KERS please do so now.
Team: OK, Lewis, this is the last lap of the race. At the end of the lap the safety car will come in,
you just proceed over the line without overtaking, without overtaking. We are looking into the Trulli
thing, but just hold position.

....now without being able to compare the exact time for the radio chatter with the two cars telemetry we can say exactly who was doing what at any time. Its also impossible to declare anyone a liar without then being able to compare it exactly with what was said, by who, during the stewards enquiry.


Regards

Scaff

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Sorry but have the FIA released a full transcript of the stewards enquiry?

Unless they have you and I and no one here, knows exactly what was said by who. Currently we have half the facts in this situation, we know exactly what was said over the radio, but to be able to compare that to what was said in the stewards enquiry will require a copy of that transcript.

The official statement rom the FIA says that Hamilton withheld infomation from the them; information that was relevant to the incident. That is a case of lying by omission.

 

[Famine]

Next up, the memory test round.

You're going to drive a Formula One car - a quite flawed one at that - around a circuit at 70mph for two laps, whereupon you finish, without overtaking the guy in front of you, while weaving, accelerating and braking in an exaggerated fashion to keep heat in your tyres and brakes so you don't spear off the track. During this I'm going to have a conversation with you.

After this, you're going to give interviews to the world press and then get called in to see three people who you're pretty sure hate you and asked what was said during the conversation.

If you fail to repeat the entire conversation verbatim back to these three people, I will tell the world that you're a liar.


Sound good?

As Scaff said, we need the transcripts of the meeting with the stewards (though I doubt they'll ever be released). And as I said earlier, I'd just like one race where I can sit and watch it and carry on with my day knowing that this is the result. Rather than sit and watch the race and find out four days later the people have been disqualified and undisqualified. The race takes place on the track, not in a conference room.

Perhaps the FIA could introduce a 30 minute window - all penalties must be applied during the race period including this 30 minute window. Any subsequent penalties which come to be applied must then be tacked onto the grid positions for the next race.

 

[niky]

The official statement rom the FIA says that Hamilton withheld infomation from the them; information that was relevant to the incident. That is a case of lying by omission.

So where's their transcript? How did he "withhold" information? Like Scaff says, unless they release their own records of how the interview went, there's no way of actually knowing what really transpired at that stewards' meeting.

You're asking us to disprove a conspiracy theory against the FIA... and yet they (and the rabid anti-McLaren crowd) have their own ridiculously convoluted conspiracy theory about McLaren and Hamilton... one which doesn't make any sense at all... that by giving away third place in order to avoid a penalty, they were assuring themselves of third place. Wow. That works.

 

[Scaff]

The official statement rom the FIA says that Hamilton withheld infomation from the them; information that was relevant to the incident. That is a case of lying by omission.

Sorry that is not a transcript of exactly what questions were asked and how they were answered.

Its also a press release and holds no regulatory value, and the FIA quite clearly state as much....

For Media Information Purposes - No Regulatory Value

...http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/f1releases/2009/Pages/f1_stewards_decision.aspx


I'm glad to see that you are impartial enough to not judge the situation without the full facts.

On the other had I have quite clearly stated from my first post on this subject that I would want to see transcripts of both discussions and right now we only have one.

The exact words used in both situations is important, given that the FIA state "The Race Director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so. "

Now if the conversation went....

RD - Lewis did you consciously allow Trulli to overtake?
LH - No

...then I have no problem with what has happened.


However if it went...

RD - Lewis did you consciously allow Trulli to overtake?
LH - No, I was still in discussion with the team as to the situation when he passed me.


...then I do have a problem.

Now are you telling me that without a transcript of the stewards enquiry you know exactly what situation occurred?



Regards

Scaff

 

[RACECAR]

Personally, I think this should be applied to this topic:

 

[Touring Mars]

Now if the conversation went....

RD - Lewis did you consciously allow Trulli to overtake?
LH - No

...then I have no problem with what has happened.


However if it went...

RD - Lewis did you consciously allow Trulli to overtake?
LH - No, I was still in discussion with the team as to the situation when he passed me.


...then I do have a problem.

Now are you telling me that without a transcript of the stewards enquiry you know exactly what situation occurred?

In addition to knowing the exact wording in the hearing, I would also argue that the FIA would need to be certain that they have interpretted what Hamilton said in the right way. As I have already argued, I think Hamilton had legitimate grounds to say "No." to that question. Was he instructed to let Trulli past, "Yes". Did he personally make the decision to let him pass? "No." Did the team instruct him to let Trulli pass, "Yes, and then No." So no room for misinterpretation there... much.

Whitmarsh has now added this:

"We, the team, made a mistake," said Whitmarsh. "We did not provide a full account of a radio conversation, which we believed was being listened to in any case, and we do not believe was material to the decisions being made by the stewards."

That is a case of lying by omission.

You have to be very careful accusing someone of "lying by omission", when the stewards are the ones asking the questions and interpreting the answers. If McLaren were not clear enough in their responses, then you could also argue that the stewards were not clear enough in their questions, but I guess we will just have to take their word on that. What is clear is that the stewards seem to think that McLaren are unbelievably stupid - that they would purposefully lie knowing full well that there was ample evidence available to prove it.

 

[Alex.]

I cant find anything about it on the web but the sky news I think I was watching mentioned it in this way "Hamilton was stripped of his race points but could worse be on the way for the Mclaren team" My dad also heard a simalair thing on the radio about the disqualifiction. Why I dont know..

My friend in france has just told me the french news are reporting this....

 

[Metar]

And so, McLaren sporting director Dave Ryan gets the boot for this.

 

[Touring Mars]

Hamilton has responded, and it looks like he is laying the blame for this debacle squarely at the feet of Ryan...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7980593.stm

The Englishman said sporting director Dave Ryan, who has been suspended after 35 years with McLaren, had instructed him to "withhold information".

McLaren team boss Martin Whitmarsh said that Ryan had not been "entirely full and truthful with the answers he gave [to the stewards], so we had not alternative but to suspend him".

He added that [during the two meetings with stewards in Melbourne on Sunday following the race], although Hamilton had also been "not entirely truthful, Davey was the senior member of the team, so he is responsible for what happened".

I won't be surprised if McLaren are disqualified for the season for this - at the very least I expect a suspension of some description.

I'll hold my hand up right now and say that I can scarcely believe that someone so senior in the team would do this, and am disappointed that Hamilton - who looked to have acted in a sporting manner - didn't have the balls to do the right thing and tell the truth, whether or not he was instructed otherwise.

Press Conference available here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7981273.stm

 

[livemusic]

"...although Hamilton had also been "not entirely truthful, Davey was the senior member of the team, so he is responsible for what happened". we'd be screwed without him.

And now let's move on to Malaysia! 👍

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Well there you go the the FIA did something right. Hopefully no further penalties will apply for McLaren or at least any significant ones.

 

[KSaiyu]

Hope 3rd place was worth it....oh wait

 

[Scaff]

Hamilton has responded, and it looks like he is laying the blame for this debacle squarely at the feet of Ryan...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7980593.stm





I won't be surprised if McLaren are disqualified for the season for this - at the very least I expect a suspension of some description.

I'll hold my hand up right now and say that I can scarcely believe that someone so senior in the team would do this, and am disappointed that Hamilton - who looked to have acted in a sporting manner - didn't have the balls to do the right thing and tell the truth, whether or not he was instructed otherwise.

Press Conference available here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7981273.stm

I agree on both counts and am more than happy if this is the situation that they lost the place.

It was a stupid thing for someone so senior in a team to do, and while he is young is was plan daft of Hamilton to go along with it.

Even if Ryan did (and we don't know) effectively back Hamilton into a corner atthe stewards enquiry, he should have approached Whitmarsh straight after and gone to the FIA.

I'm deeply disappointed in both McLaren as a team and LH as a person, they have a lot to do to repair this level of damage.





Scaff

 

[Hun200kmh]

I still WANT the transcripts of the stweard's interview to LH immediately after the race.

All this smells "fishy" (it's how you say it in english, isn't it?). That guy Ryan is probably being sacrificed because McLaren are afraid of further sanctions. A scapegoat had to be found and poor Ryan was chosen.

I'm deeply disappointed in both McLaren as a team and LH as a person, they have a lot to do to repair this level of damage.

Scaff

I wouldn't be so sure. FIA clearly terrifies McLaren, so the team is doing "damage preventiion". I don't think (never did) that the FIA works in Ferrari's favour, but Mr. Max "whip me" Mosley hates Ron Dennis so McLaren are always in the line of fire.

Mosley has to go ...

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I cant help notice that since Hamilton got DQd theres been alot of talk how this desicion is stupid and how the stewards/FIA are messing up. But no one was saying too much when Trulli was pretty much DQd (25 seconds when the field is bunched up behind a safety car) for doing NOTHING wrong at all. I have to ask those defending Hamilton/Mclaren now, why werent they defending Trulli/Toyota on Sunday? 👎

I thought the penalty itself was kind of stupid. Trulli's was an honest mistake, but a clear violation, if Hamilton was not actively letting him pass. If Hamilton DID let him past, like he was telling the whole world in the post-race interview, Trulli's 3rd place should have stood. And it does. What I don't understand is how the FIA muddled everything up and contradicted themselves two or three times in the span of one week.

Same for me...after the race was finished, I didn't know that Hamilton let Trulli pass him.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

do you race i sugest you just drop it there are always people you cant convince to see your side with the information present. just like there are people that think the goverment is hiding aliens in roswell and 9\11 was a big conspiracy. some people just wont see your side unless they get all the facts.

 

[Famine]

Yes, curse those people who like to have facts. Why, with "facts" one can prove just about anything.

 

[Omnis]

I think a show about Heikki at McLaren would make for some good TV.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

well obviously we will never get all the facts. well basicly just the transcript of what was asked to hamilton after the race by the stewards. lets face it the FIA will never release it. but if McLaren didnt do anything wrong do you think they would just roll over and take it? clearly not but they are which means they know what they did was wrong and fighting it will only get them into a bigger hole. so whats the best thing you can do? have your HR guy downplay it as much as possible and i think thats exactly what whitmarsh was trying to do in his interview that was posted earlier. i mean if you think you didnt do anything wrong and got unfairly punished would you just take it no you would appeal the situation and fight it McLaren sint doing that so clearly with out all the facts you can tell something at McLaren wasnt right and Ryan is going to take the fall for it. now you guys can go on and on about how its a conspriacy but im going to use contecxt clues and draw my conclusions that McLaren was definatly in the wrong on this one.

 

[livemusic]

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/04/03/hamilton-apologises-for-australia-situation/

Hamilton apologises for Australia situation
03 April 2009


Lewis Hamilton has said 'sorry' for his involvment in the scandal surrounding the McLaren team, after its disqualification from last Sunday's Australian Grand Prix. Both cars were thrown out of the final classification of the race after the stewards deemed 'misleading information' had been given regarding the Englishman's on-track incident with Jarno Trulli under the second safety car.

Italian Trulli, who had run wide when the safety car was deployed, was passed by Hamilton only to retake his position as the World Champion yielded on the following lap. With Trulli claiming that Hamilton slowed, as if with a technical problem, Hamilton simply explained that he was following team instructions. It has since been revealed that the team then provided race stewards with a different story, explaining that car number one had not relinquished the third position; it was for this that the FIA considered the British team's story as 'deliberately misleading', subsequently removing both cars from the race results.




Hamilton leaves race control with Ryan on Thursday, having learned of the stewards' decision

"In Melbourne, I had a great race," Hamilton said in Malaysia. "As soon as I got out of the car, I had the television interviews at the back of the garage, and straight away I gave them a good account of what happened during the race. Straight after that we were requested by the stewards and, whilst waiting, I was instructed and misled by my team manager (Dave Ryan) to withhold information, and that is what I did."

As a result of the scenario, Ryan - a McLaren veteran of 35 years - has been suspended from duties by team principal Martin Whitmarsh, and has followed instructions to leave Kuala Lumpur and return to England. "I sincerely apologise to the stewards for wasting their time," Hamilton went on. "I'd like to say sorry to all of my fans who have believed in me, and have supported me for years; I am not a liar or a dishonest person, I am a team player. Every time I have been informed to do something, I have done it - this time I realise it was a huge mistake. I am learning from it, and it has taken a huge toll on me."

 

[Scaff]

well obviously we will never get all the facts. well basicly just the transcript of what was asked to hamilton after the race by the stewards. lets face it the FIA will never release it. but if McLaren didnt do anything wrong do you think they would just roll over and take it? clearly not but they are which means they know what they did was wrong and fighting it will only get them into a bigger hole. so whats the best thing you can do? have your HR guy downplay it as much as possible and i think thats exactly what whitmarsh was trying to do in his interview that was posted earlier. i mean if you think you didnt do anything wrong and got unfairly punished would you just take it no you would appeal the situation and fight it McLaren sint doing that so clearly with out all the facts you can tell something at McLaren wasnt right and Ryan is going to take the fall for it. now you guys can go on and on about how its a conspriacy but im going to use contecxt clues and draw my conclusions that McLaren was definatly in the wrong on this one.

Sorry but that displays a serious lack of understanding of Formula 1 history.

Appeals do not have a good track record with the FIA, the vast, vast majority are turned down and in most cases the penalty increased at the same time.

Teams in F1 know on the whole not to pick a fight with the FIA, and certainly not to pick another if you have already lost the first one.

A challenge for you, find me an appeal against the FIA that a team won.


Regards

Scaff

 

[prisonermonkeys]

do you race i sugest you just drop it there are always people you cant convince to see your side with the information present. just like there are people that think the goverment is hiding aliens in roswell and 9\11 was a big conspiracy. some people just wont see your side unless they get all the facts.

Actually, "the facts" is something I've been after since Spa. You might have missed it, but about a week ago I went on a rant against the proponents of this so-called conspiracy, demandng that they provide solid, verifable fact as evidence that the FIA has it in for McLaren and Hamilton; beyond the usual "Hamilton got penalised but Raikkonen didn't" stuff that could be cut both ways depending on your point of view. I've since given up, because I've come to realise that like all conspiracy theories:

1) People see what they want to see. If they really want a conspiacy to exist - and they do - they will find one, even if it requires and extreme suspesnion of disbelief and generally ignoring common sense.
2) Like most conspiracy theories, the evidence provided is like most photographs of the Loch Ness Monster: it could be Nessie, but it could also be some interesting pieces of driftwood. It's, hazy and indistinct, but if you squint yout eyes, tilt your head at a funny angle and hold it at arm's length, you an just make something out.

 

[Ardius]

I'm not a believer in the conspiracy theories...however, the payments the FIA give to Ferrari do tend to suggest they would be hesitant about making harsh penalties on them as they have other teams. Its gives the idea they want Ferrari around and won't want to do anything that causes them to leave. F1 and Ferrari are two things that cannot exist without each other and they are a valuable part of the sport.

However, I don't think McLaren get treated any differently to any of the other non-Ferrari teams beyond the fact that they have a history of clashes with the FIA whereas other teams do not. I don't think it would be out of this world to think they may be a little tired of McLaren's constant clashes with the rules and hence may be a little quicker to judge on such incidents than with other teams who haven't been messing about.

I think there are fair grounds for some of the theories really, its not so rediculous as you make it sound but on the other hand I don't think there is anything beyond a slight bias with regards to past histories and perhaps contracts.
And don't tell me the FIA are beyond having bias when it comes to dealing with a team they have clashed with before...there have been many seasons previously where the same team (not just McLaren) has been harshly penalised purely because of previous incidents rather than the seriousness of the latest incident. Or at the very least heavily watched, and I'm thinking Benetton 1994 here.