Automatic vs. Manual: The Ultimate Showdown Thread

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My buddy's Firebird Formula is not slow by any means and it has a full exhaust system (exhaust, cat, headers, etc) and an automatic. It's ran mid 11's at the local drag strip as well. I think it sound ridiculous, but I'm not a huge fan of V8 engines. I fail to see how a manual has any affect on the exhaust since it's main purpose is to move air, not shift gears.
 
Joey D
My buddy's Firebird Formula is not slow by any means and it has a full exhaust system (exhaust, cat, headers, etc) and an automatic. It's ran mid 11's at the local drag strip as well. I think it sound ridiculous, but I'm not a huge fan of V8 engines. I fail to see how a manual has any affect on the exhaust since it's main purpose is to move air, not shift gears.
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I'm talking about the sound when it shifts.

On something like a CVT it would be even worse, just one long drone as the car picked up speed.
 
I think it primarily has to do with the gearing of a typical economy car, with a big exhaust attached to the back. To tell the truth, even manual cars will have that dead drone with a fart can attached at normal, sane speeds. The Auto may be slightly worse, since it shifts at the lowest possible RPM.

But, still, the difference isnt' that noticable...ricers are ricers, and what's worse: an Auto doing it's job while the driver isn't, or trying to listen so some tool attempting to shift stick?
 
In point of fact most successful and fast drag racers (rail drivers in particular) us friggin' Power glide 2 speed autos to turn ridiculously fast times.
Bracket racers love autos for the consistency they get.
It is damn near impossible to miss a shift with an auto trans.
 
Jim Prower
I think it primarily has to do with the gearing of a typical economy car, with a big exhaust attached to the back. To tell the truth, even manual cars will have that dead drone with a fart can attached at normal, sane speeds. The Auto may be slightly worse, since it shifts at the lowest possible RPM.
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+1. I can't stand the sound of a Honda, Toyota, Nissan, whatever little car with an exhaust whether it's manual, semi-auto, or full auto.
 
Gil
In point of fact most successful and fast drag racers (rail drivers in particular) us friggin' Power glide 2 speed autos to turn ridiculously fast times.
Bracket racers love autos for the consistency they get.
It is damn near impossible to miss a shift with an auto trans.
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Of course they generally use manual valve bodies with ratchet/air shifters so they essentially make a clutchless manual.
 
Joey D
+1. I can't stand the sound of a Honda, Toyota, Nissan, whatever little car with an exhaust whether it's manual, semi-auto, or full auto.
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Of course the sound varies greatly between a fart can and a good exhaust, so how can you throw out such a massive category?


Big difference between:


and a quality product like Mugen:

 
Joey D
+1. I can't stand the sound of a Honda, Toyota, Nissan, whatever little car with an exhaust whether it's manual, semi-auto, or full auto.
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You ever heard one with a proper exhaust system? Or an S2000, MR2, S13, Miata, or such?
 
Perfect Balance
Of course the sound varies greatly between a fart can and a good exhaust, so how can you throw out such a massive category?
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And you aren't throwing out a massive category by dismissing cars with auto's sound like crap with an exhaust system? Yes there are also going to be varying sounds, I don't really care for the sound of most aftermarket exhausts to be honest. It could be a $1000 Mugen system or a $25 AutoZone muffler for all I care.

Azuremen
You ever heard one with a proper exhaust system? Or an S2000, MR2, S13, Miata, or such?
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Yes, several. I often go to auto crosses with cars tuned strictly for performance over anything else. I just don't care for the sound they make because as I've said, I don't really care for the sound of most aftermarket exhausts no matter if they are on a manual, semi-auto, or auto. I like my cars with just a bit of an exhaust note.
 
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Joey D
And you aren't throwing out a massive category by dismissing cars with auto's sound like crap with an exhaust system?
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Absolutely not.

I don't dislike the sound of the exhaust system itself, I just don't like the sound of an autobox shifting, which is amplified by a louder exhaust, regardless of the type of car it is or the sound it's exhaust make.
 
Other than removing the word "conventional" I think it's fine.

I think they "fail" as I put it, because IMO the sound of the car shifting ruins the entire experience.
 
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Duke
It was poor - but so are most small-form-factor, low-torque automatics. For a German-engineered (I assume) CVT, it drove a lot like the cheap 4-speed autobox in a '95 Civic.
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Last year I drove a ’96-ish Civic with a slushbox for about half an hour… I was desperately hoping that an 18-wheeler would just run over and kill me.
 
Perfect Balance
Absolutely not.

I don't dislike the sound of the exhaust system itself, I just don't like the sound of an autobox shifting, which is amplified by a louder exhaust, regardless of the type of car it is or the sound it's exhaust make.
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+1. It always just sounds so....so....limp.
 
Well if you're talking about the sound during shifting, then yeah, i LOVE how my car sounds with the manual compared to the old auto. However, you guys should get a kick out of what my friend and I came across (and got on tape) over the summer. I'll upload the vid this afternoon when I get home from work.
 
Joey D
I fail to see how a manual has any affect on the exhaust since it's main purpose is to move air, not shift gears.
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Because 90% of ricers say they put a fart cannon on the car because the 'reduced backpressure' gives them more power and thereby makes the car quicker.

With a typical modestly-powered 4-cylinder economy car, the single best thing you can do to make the car a lot faster is learn to drive a manual transmission. And it's free! In fact, it's probably even better than free, because MTX cars are usually cheaper than their ATX counterparts.

So putting a fart cannon on an ATX car simply highlights that you'd rather sound fast than actually be fast. That's why we hate to hear an ATX econobox with a fart cannon.
 
Duke
Because 90% of ricers say they put a fart cannon on the car because the 'reduced backpressure' gives them more power and thereby makes the car quicker.

With a typical modestly-powered 4-cylinder economy car, the single best thing you can do to make the car a lot faster is learn to drive a manual transmission. And it's free! In fact, it's probably even better than free, because MTX cars are usually cheaper than their ATX counterparts.

So putting a fart cannon on an ATX car simply highlights that you'd rather sound fast than actually be fast. That's why we hate to hear an ATX econobox with a fart cannon.
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Far be it from me to disagree with Duke, but I don't see why it's bad for someone to want to boost their engine output (if in fact that is what their custom exhaust is doing) in an automatic. Even if the fastest thing would be to switch to manual, making an auto faster isn't a bad thing. Taking extra seats out makes you faster too, but it's annoying. Some people feel that way about MTs.

I do agree that the custom exhausts are annoying for the rest of us and most often directed at making noise rather than improving speed.

In my experience, the first place to improve just about any car is tires.
 
Danoff
In my experience, the first place to improve just about any car is tires.
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That and driver training 👍 Obviously it doesn't improve the car as such... but it improves the speed of whatever car you happen to be driving.
 
"tuning" an automatic with an exhaust is just about the most futile thing you can do.

Most aftermarket exhaust modifications reduce backpressure, leading to more high rpm power... which is good.

But they also make it so that air flow in the exhaust is sluggish at low exhaust velocities... which isn't too bad with a manual, because you can always downshift. With an automatic, you spend more time at low rpms, so the loss of torque from the loss of flow velocity at low rpms means that your typical automatic will usually lose out on acceleration when you start ripping into the exhaust, unless you have other mods. But, IMHO, the only mod that makes sense on a four-pot, four-speed automatic compact is a snail and a dozen or so pounds of boost.
 
niky
But, IMHO, the only mod that makes sense on a four-pot, four-speed automatic compact is a snail and a dozen or so pounds of boost.
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...which will promptly rip the guts out of your average compact-car automatic transmission.
 
Duke
...which will promptly rip the guts out of your average compact-car automatic transmission.
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Not if you install an aftermarket valve-body, torque-converter, transmission cooler... hmmm... this is getting complicated... :lol: ...I've seen some automatics hold up to maybe 10 pounds of boost or so... But having ridden turocharged ATs making as much wheel hp as my naturally aspirated MT, they're still disappointingly slow. (this is traditional 4ATs, mind you).

Still.. except for the Honda Fit CVT, no small car automatic has ever made sense to me. Too much of a drain on the motor, too much in terms of drivetrain losses (the less power you have, the more the losses count). If the motor isn't at least 2.4 to 2.5 liters, the penalty for going AT is just too big.
 
Duke
With a typical modestly-powered 4-cylinder economy car, the single best thing you can do to make the car a lot faster is learn to drive a manual transmission. And it's free! In fact, it's probably even better than free, because MTX cars are usually cheaper than their ATX counterparts.
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If one can FIND ONE!

I mean, it is somewhat difficult to find a car in the US with a manual transmission, particularly non-sports versions of economy cars. And in that case, you end up paying more for the stick, because it's in the sports model and not the normal one. Blame the general public of the United States, and the heavy advertisement of the Auto in the late '50s (not to mention the automakers' long-running preference for three-wide bench seats and column shift) for that.

I think I've hit upon something here: because so many automakers went with the column shift scheme so they could get an entire family into the front and rear seats of a car, they chose Autos, because three-on-the-tree is a P-I-T-A, and sticks don't take well to bench seats. That means that people got used to them, and there weren't as many people to teach their kids how to use a clutch, thus, the stick became more and more of a lost art.
 
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niky
Not if you install an aftermarket valve-body, torque-converter, transmission cooler... hmmm... this is getting complicated... :lol:
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Actually, when Buschur was king of the small-bore turbo drag racers, they converted a couple of DSM Eclipses to longitudinal engines, Torqueflight automatics, and RWD...
 
Now that, is complicated.... but not as complicated as converting them to longitudinal engines in FWD format, as the current crop of FWD dragsters are doing...
 
*timidly raises hand*

I'm learning to drive presently (permit, no license), and autos scare the crap out of me. Hm, when will I get a sudden, explainable shunt? Excluding simple gentleness, is there something else I can do to minimize that? Otherwise, I don't know how anyone can tolerate the things.
 
Let off the gas earlier than you would in a manual.

The "lack of control" you have with an AT only matters at 10/10ths cornering (which you're almost never doing on the street) and with engine braking (let off the gas and brake earlier) and overtaking (honestly... do you really need to?). Otherwise, they aren't inherently any more dangerous than manuals.
 
niky
Let off the gas earlier than you would in a manual.

The "lack of control" you have with an AT only matters at 10/10ths cornering (which you're almost never doing on the street) and with engine braking (let off the gas and brake earlier) and overtaking (honestly... do you really need to?). Otherwise, they aren't inherently any more dangerous than manuals.
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I'd certainly agree that autos aren't any more dangerous than manuals, but re: the overtaking comment, are you referring to EA11R above learning to drive, or driving in general?

I'm not having a dig at you here Niky, but in my view people who "don't see any need" to overtake are the sort of people who cause huge queues of traffic on main roads when they "don't see any need" to overtake a lorry that's going 40mph in a 60mph zone.

Overtaking is a perfectly safe and occasionally very necessary skill to driving - given correct planning. It winds me up when people complain about overtaking as if it's reckless and unnecessary. Sure, it's possible to overtake recklessly, but then it's possible to park recklessly too.

Incidentally, to veer back on topic, that is one thing that autos with a bit of power are good at - if the box is a good one then kickdown can be very useful for a quick overtake. If I see an overtaking opportunity I always try and be in the right gear to make the maneuver, but in an auto you can just cruise along at low revs behind whatever is going slowly, and when you see a gap just press the pedal to the floor and wham, down two gears for instant punch.
 

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