Automatic vs. Manual: The Ultimate Showdown Thread

[slowman]

This is all very simple. I like manuals, and will not drive an automatic car unless I have to. I have never owned an automatic car, but have driven plenty. I don't like them.

But the thing is, who am I to judge something as trivial and subjective as someone else's transmission preference? We're all enthusiasts here; none of us need to be more hardcore than anyone else. Its just plain silly to think you will get a definitive answer out of a collective as large as GTP.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I've thought of another example.


Lets say you have a gun that fires automatically at predetermined times. You know exactly when it's going to fire, you just need to point it where you want to shoot. You're never in any kind of danger or out of control. That's an automatic transmission.

Then lets say you can now control when the gun will fire, but it still takes a bit of time to do so. This time changes slightly. That is the + - feature of an auto transmission.


Then lets say you can control when the gun shoots and it ALWAYS shoots exactly when you want it to, except now you have to do the extra work of pulling the trigger. That's a manual transmission. It's a bit more than simply feeling "more involved."

EDIT: all of these are fine when you're shooting a non moving target (daily driving) but let's saying move to something harder, like a moving target that will sometimes hide behind objects. (Driving hard through a curvy road)

I'm sure all of you have been in a situation where you're in a corner with an automatic transmission and it shifts mid corner when you don't need it. (the automatic gun firing while the target is hidden from view/you don't need it to fire)

 

[Joey D]

But the thing is, who am I to judge something as trivial and subjective as someone else's transmission preference? We're all enthusiasts here; none of us need to be more hardcore than anyone else. Its just plain silly to think you will get a definitive answer out of a collective as large as GTP.

I agree, there are way to many manual transmission elitist here who seem to think you can't have fun or be in control of your vehicle unless you are selecting gears. We all have our own reasons for buying our vehicles the way we did. As I've said I think the idea that you can't be in control of your vehicle unless you are changing gears is down right foolish.

 

[Tornado]

I wish it was easier to perform tom foolery with slushboxes.

Of the cars I regularly drive, two of them are 4L60Es, and two of them are Mopar 5 speeds.

 

[Pupik]

^^^

Even the most diehard manual fan should try getting stuck in hours of traffic while rowing a stick. Trust me, it gets old. REAL OLD. There's a reason why my car almost never goes into the city (NYC) and we take the wife's instead.


M

Three best-case scenarios for an automatic transmission:
(If you have never been in any two of these scenarios, do not reply.)

• 7 miles in 150 minutes on a rainy highway (I no longer fear hellfire, brimstone, nor dentist's drill).
• Delivering newspapers at 3am in the morning.
• Dating.

Three best-case scenarios for a manual transmission:

• 500 miles of driving in a single day, none of them on interstates, for no purpose, and no design.
• Being one more link to the car, rather than one more link away from it.
• Date isn't all that interesting.

AT, MT, MT, AT&T, AT-AT.
But I prefer stick, when possible.

 

[Bones Brigade]

I thought I said not to argue it...

Any of the following can be injured and significantly impair manual driving ability:
1) Left Hand
2) Right Hand
3) Left Foot
4) Right Foot

Any of the following can be injured and significantly impair auto driving ability:
1) Right Foot

See? 1 vs. 4.

One time at work, I was hauling a pallet of 24 packs of bottled water with a pallet jack. My strides were too long and the pallet jack wheels came over the top and crushed my foot. After finishing work I drove home. The next day I went to get X-rays; two broken toes and a hairline fracture on the top of my foot. Driving hurt, but my ability wasn't hampered.

I also recently bruised my hand and it swelled pretty badly. Sure, it wasn't broken anywhere, but it hurt, and up shifts to 2nd and 4th sent some wonderful tingly sensations up my arm but it didn't stop me.

Obviously, for someone not dedicated to only owning cars with manual trans, the pain wouldn't be worth it. But I'm not going to deprive myself of the fun and excitement 99% of the time just so I can drive pain free in the unlikely event I'm injured. You could get paralyzed from the waist down and not be able to drive anything, but not many of us currently have a chauffeur in the event that happens.

HOWEVER, driving a manual in a nice pair of dress shoes is very cumbersome, I will concede that. It sucks. Not very communicative.

**As far as involvement goes, it's not debatable, really. (At least in spirited driving terms.) I mean, if two drivers are equally concentrated on driving, and one is in an auto, and one is in a manual, one driver will have MORE input on the car. The clutch pedal and H-gate are an advantage for the manual regardless of how good the auto is. Simply controlling shift points isn't the same as the involvement required for a manual and the effect the inputs have on the car. However, that really hardly matters at anything less than 10/10ths. For even weekend fun on the back roads, the manual driver will simply be pressing a lever with his foot and moving another with his hand. (Hyperbole.) At that point it's all up to driver preference.

**this has all been better stated and more in depth by Perfect Balance

Three best-case scenarios for an automatic transmission:
(If you have never been in any two of these scenarios, do not reply.)

• 7 miles in 150 minutes on a rainy highway (I no longer fear hellfire, brimstone, nor dentist's drill).
• Delivering newspapers at 3am in the morning.
• Dating.

1 1/2 out of 3. I haven't delivered newspapers and my traffic jam experience isn't quite that hair-raising.

and uh...this is a family website! but really, if the date is good enough, it would be, um, completed, elsewhere. If there is a will, there is a way. otherwise was it really that good?

 

[McLaren]

I'll post what I did in the other thread. I have no problem with people who prefer driving manuals, if that is what they like then who am I to say that they are wrong? What I can not stand though is the people who come in an right away dismiss automatic gearboxes for whatever reason.

I have an auto, although apparently it's not a stand auto since it has six gears and the ability to select which gear I want either through the gear selector or paddles behind the steering wheel. I've never felt like I had a lack of involvement or control while driving my car. I can not say that I would have any more or less fun with my car if it was a manual since I've driven several Coopers with a manual transmission and apart from being a royal pain in the backside in stop and go traffic the driving experience was about the same. I can't make judgment for every car in the world, only cars I've personally driven so that limits me some.

I think people who dismiss autos are incredibly biased and at times rather foolish in how they word their responses. I don't dismiss manuals as crap, I just do not prefer them in most situations. Sure if I had a track only car it would be a manual for sure, but as a daily driver I personally see little need for having a car that I have to shift gears in.

+1 Joey. +1.

I can drive either transmission, and I can see the joys & cons in both. But, like I mentioned before, not all autos & manuals are the same, or perform the same. And yet, some people here still seem to push the idea they do.

And here's an after thought manual guys. Many of you claim stop & go is nothing. FYI buddies, have you driven all the cars that come with a manual in stop & go? I can say for a fact driving my Si in stop & go is so much easier than trying to drive a Impreza WRX. Why? Because (and this is an issue in many cars) the WRX's clutch is incredibly heavy & forceful. I stalled it on a test drive because it came back up a lot quicker than I thought it might, and it was hell keeping it engaged because I could feel the pedal fighting my foot. The Si, not an issue. The point now? You manual guys need to try driving a heavy clutch in stop & go if you don't find it to be a pain. I've already told myself I will never buy an exotic with a clutch like a Diablo just because the short experience I had in moving said car a couple feet led me to realize, "Jesus, this thing's got a tricky clutch". I digress, though.

In the end, I still like both just fine. I still prefer autos, though, but as long as manufacturers continue to make DSG-like transmissions, I will just be fine because I get the enjoyment out of both transmissions. I can still do spiritied driving out in Cresson, Tx with the manual mode, or I can "enjoy" the past time of sitting in Dallas' stop & go traffic through West End. It doesn't matter to me.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Why? Because (and this is an issue in many cars) the WRX's clutch is incredibly heavy & forceful. I stalled it on a test drive because it came back up a lot quicker than I thought it might, and it was hell keeping it engaged because I could feel the pedal fighting my foot.

Your legs get stronger and you get used to it really quickly.

 

[Bones Brigade]

Your legs get stronger and you get used to it really quickly.

+1

You auto guys who get stuck in traffic probably have unbalanced leg strength. Your right leg does all the work. How do you manage to walk in a straight line? The clutch was invented to allow walking without going in circles.

 

[McLaren]

Your legs get stronger and you get used to it really quickly.

Maybe so, but I was going to get one and wait to see when & if I got used to it. I just plain didn't like it, and as enjoying as the car is, I didn't want to go through traffic playing with that clutch. I also didn't want to come back to it from my other cars and get used to it all over again. But, that's my preference on it.

You auto guys who get stuck in traffic probably have unbalanced leg strength. Your right leg does all the work.

That's not the point. I can still drive a manual just fine. I do not like ones with a heavy clutch, though, and while I manage it, I just do not prefer driving the Si in traffic like I do my others.

 

[niky]

Exactly my point.

As much bone-headed stuff you can do to a stick, you can do the same to a slushbox.

Ah... but if you've got a four-speed slushbox, there's less incentive to.

----(was going to post resume, but it's superfluous... and too long... )----

I've driven so much new metal, with 5ATs, 6ATs, CVTs and DSGs, that I can't honestly say I actually hate automatics, anymore... but as I live, and despite my occassional arthritis of the knees, I still prefer manuals.

Of course, good manuals, that is... some, like my daily driver (which has a racing clutch) are a right pain to drive in two-hour traffic. Never mind some of the Korean and Chinese stuff I've been driving in the past year, cars with notchy gears and poor clutches even with less than 5000 kms on the clock.

Very few automatics give you the total control over the attitude of the car like manuals do. An automatic can give you superior control over power delivery, especially if it's a CVT or a DSG box... punching out of a corner is cleaner, easier and less fussy. The advantage of a manual is the ability to control your attitude into a corner... but this advantage can be negated by having an automatic box that will allow aggressive downshifts and engine-braking. Some "conventional automatics will do this (notable is the paddle-shift in the new K20 Civic), while some advanced automatics still won't (some DSG and CVT boxes).

But when an autobox gives you such control, it's perfect. My preference for hard driving is an "auto" box that allows manual downshifts and then upshifts for you at redline. While you still have slightly more drivetrain losses than a manual (and this isn't universal... look at the R35's incredibly low transmission losses...), the ability to concentrate on actually driving is a bonus. I've seen some good automatics timed on the track as being almost as good (or sometimes, better) than a manual.

I've had my share of cursing at sluggish 4ATs that couldn't decide whether to bog or die in a corner... or even on a straight, and throttle over-run is a serious problem when you're unfamiliar with a box... making you stab the brakes in steady-state driving like a newbie... but many of the new ATs are so good that I don't bother shifting... even when I'm driving aggressively... they're just that good. While they're not on the top of my totem pole, yet, I don't dread receiving an automatic week-long tester as much as I used to, nowadays.

Especially considering the trend towards electronic throttles. Many E-throttles will not let you do a drop-clutch launch and will blip themselves as you let off the gas... meaning you will still get some acceleration over-run when you let off the gas, even with a manual tranny, which means less aggressive engine braking...

Nothing beats the feeling of a fine shifter, though... especially with the modern dual-synchromesh boxes out there, where you don't have to heel-and-toe or double-clutch... ...it's almost... automatic.

 

[YSSMAN]

I disagree with you, YSSMAN. There's no such thing as a soulless manual transmission car. Shifting and clutching makes even the simplest of commutes a pleasure. I've never groaned at the thought of having to drive my BMW; I don't even think about shifting, and I've never wished my right hand and left foot were free to rest idly.

I was attempting to make reference to a stick being in the wrong car. I for one wouldn't want to deal with it in a softly sprung Camry, but, I could have fun with it as well. My point is, there are cars that should have them and cars that should not... I'm willing to go without if I'm in a Town Car, but I demand that I have a stick if I'm in a Focus.

EDIT:

My three cars:

- '93 VW Fox w/ 5-speed manual
- '96 VW Jetta w/5-speed manual
- '98 Toyota Celica w/5-speed manual

(I'm sensing a trend...)

 

[kingcars]

What makes you think I'm wealthy? Just because I have a new car doesn't mean I'm rolling in the dough.

I never said you were wealthy. Being more wealthy than me doesn't mean you're wealthy.

And for what I do my auto is perfect in every way for me. If I was going to do any form of auto cross it probably would be useless. But I think the tires would be a bigger limiter then the transmission because they are rubbish.

Agreed. After recently going from 14x7 rims with crappy tires to 17x8s with stickier tires, the handling difference is INSANE.

Fun is what you make of it as I've said, you can have fun in any car, whether it is auto or manual, old or new, big or small. I know people who own Crown Victoria's from the 80's and love every minute of driving it. And you know what? If they are having fun, then it's a fun car.

Where did I ever say you can't have fun with an automatic? My Tbird was an automatic for a long time and I had loads of fun in it. Countless nights with my friend and I toying with the local rice burners, occasional trips to the drag strip, playing on some twisty mountain roads, etc. However, all of those activities are now even MORE fun with a manual. That DOES NOT mean that fun CANNOT be had with automatics. Stop twisting it around.

I agree, there are way to many manual transmission elitist here who seem to think you can't have fun or be in control of your vehicle unless you are selecting gears. We all have our own reasons for buying our vehicles the way we did. As I've said I think the idea that you can't be in control of your vehicle unless you are changing gears is down right foolish.

You sure like to twist things around. Where did I say you can't have fun in an automatic? Read my above comment. Where did I say you CAN'T be in control of your car with an automatic? All I've said is that both of those things are ENHANCED with a manual (and obviously, the fun part is a matter of opinion). I NEVER said what you're insinuating. You need to stop with that junk. However, there are many posts in here describing the ENHANCED car control that manuals provide, and you should really look into reading them.

And here's an after thought manual guys. Many of you claim stop & go is nothing. FYI buddies, have you driven all the cars that come with a manual in stop & go? I can say for a fact driving my Si in stop & go is so much easier than trying to drive a Impreza WRX. Why? Because (and this is an issue in many cars) the WRX's clutch is incredibly heavy & forceful. I stalled it on a test drive because it came back up a lot quicker than I thought it might, and it was hell keeping it engaged because I could feel the pedal fighting my foot. The Si, not an issue. The point now? You manual guys need to try driving a heavy clutch in stop & go if you don't find it to be a pain.

Every manual car feels different, so you can't judge them based on just one car. And if you look in my sig, you'll see that a Centerforce DF (Dual Friction) clutch is listed. While not the toughest of clutches, the pedal is a good bit stiffer than stock, and it's still very easy to drive and control, and it grabs perfectly.

I thought I said not to argue it...

Any of the following can be injured and significantly impair manual driving ability:
1) Left Hand
2) Right Hand
3) Left Foot
4) Right Foot

Any of the following can be injured and significantly impair auto driving ability:
1) Right Foot

See? 1 vs. 4.

WOW, I never knew you could drive an automatic car with no hands. Thanks for that info.

But I'm not going to deprive myself of the fun and excitement 99% of the time just so I can drive pain free in the unlikely event I'm injured. You could get paralyzed from the waist down and not be able to drive anything, but not many of us currently have a chauffeur in the event that happens.

Agreed 110%

 

[McLaren]

Every manual car feels different, so you can't judge them based on just one car.

That was kind of my freakin' point, directed towards though who push the idea all manuals were the same....

WOW, I never knew you could drive an automatic car with no hands. Thanks for that info.

Are you serious? I got Danoff's point the instant he posted it, and you still don't understand?

Please comprehend.

~If your left foot is injured, it's very tough to drive a manual. Doesn't work the same on an automatic because you don't used your left foot.
~If your left hand is injured, it's still tough to drive a manual because your left hand would generally steer while the right shifts (or vice versa in different countries). With an auto, your other hand can still steer.
~If your right hand is injured, see above switched around.
~If your right foot is injured, then it becomes tough to do either.

 

[Perfect Balance]

WOW, I never knew you could drive an automatic car with no hands. Thanks for that info.

FAIL.


That is all.

 

[the Interceptor]

The wife's current ride, an Audi allroad has a 5-speed Tiptronic, which VAG license-builds from Porsche. It's a pretty good box. No paddles, but you get a side shift gate. It locks up gears after the car starts moving and will hold a gear when you ask it to. My only issue is it's missing a 6th gear and the 'shift-pattern' is dorked up: you push forward to up shift, down to downshift --which is the opposite of racing style sequential gearboxes.

I think I can answer that. If you forget that you know about racing style gearboxes for a second and pretend to be the average customer being in the market for a car, you will get this. When you accelerate, it is likely you will shift up. Thus, the average person will push the gear lever towards the direction of acceleration: to the front. If you brake and thus shift down, you go backwards relative to your previous speed (sounds a bit odd, but bear with me). That means that you want to pull the lever backwards. It's an intuition thing. Other than knowing that race cars have it differently, I am sure that the majority of people would have it this way if they were to choose. Acceleration = going forward = positive = pushing the lever / deceleration = going backwards = negative = pulling the lever.

As far as I know, the only reason why racing cars have it the other way around is simple: the forces acting on the driver. It's easier for him to pull when he's accelerating, and easier to push when he's braking. Therefore, the upshift means you pull and the downshift means you push.


On another note, I wanted to add a thing about the almighty DSG gearbox. I don't know if this applies to all DSG boxes, but I have driven two, and they both did it. There are certain situations where the DSG gets confused and takes its time to sort things out. Unfortunately, said moments can become pretty awkward.

Example: you're coming up to a junction with your DSG-equipped car. You want to turn left, so you'll have to wait for oncoming traffic to pass (there's no street to the right, so you'll only have to wait for oncoming cars). You see that there's quite a bunch of metal coming towards you, so you slightly brake to decelerate slowly. Just before standstill, you spot a small gap in oncoming traffic you want to jump through. You release the brake and give it some loud pedal. And here comes the problem: in this exact situation - you braked, but just before the standstill, you want to accelerate again - the DSG will take 1-2 seconds to react. Since you're still rolling, you already are half in the oncoming lane, so you need to get away. You press the accelerator even harder, cause nothing is happening, and you're getting nervous. Then, the DSG suddenly picks up, slams in the gear, and you leave the junction with screeching tires.

Agreed, once you know this, you will be able to avoid the shame simply by pressing the accelerator just a little bit. Yet, in such a tricky situation, you literally have to force yourself to just press it a bit, then sit there and wait for the gearbox to wake up from sweet dreaming. That's not really fun, and something that doesn't happen with the classic autobox as well as with a manual.

 

[TheCracker]

Manual.

• I'm European.
• I'm not an old person.
• I'm not infirm.

And it's not because of the quiet open roads that i drive on because they're not. 80% of my driving is stop-start city driving.

 

[eiriksmil]

I friend of mine's got an Audi 80 GT and a Passat TS. They're based on each other, the GT is a manual car made for going faster, the TS is auto, lacks seatbelts up front, etc. In short words it's a real cruiser. The auto box really suits the car, just driving slowly around. None of them are dailies though, and I could not drive an auto daily, because there are some days a week you really want to have some fun, unless you drive a Minivan because you need to and have ruled out the fun bit in your life. For those it's probably great. But you don't need to 'know heel and toe and double clutching' (as some wikipedia reader earlier here stated) to have fun with a manual.

 

[mafia_boy]

I've actually recently become a convert to the lazy club ie. Driving with a conventional auto. To tell you the truth, it's not that bad (and whoever dissed 4L60E's is a bit naughty, that's what I'm running behind a 1JZ-GTE and it's wonderful!!), the fact that you have the overdrive gear, the economy/power modes changing the shift points, the fact I can still go through the gears (1,2, D-normal, D-Overdrive) is also good. Love cruising in it, lazing back and letting the car do my work for me.

The only problem is that I do not have 100% control of my own destiny with an auto like I would with a manual. Perfect Balance summed it up wonderfully when he was talking about engine (compression) braking to help adjust the car for cornering or for coming to a stop very quickly. You won't be able to do it as well with a conventional auto. However, for drag racing, a tricked up auto with a killer stallie will NOT BE BEATEN!! The only things that keep up with them are Liberty Air Shifted Manuals.

And if you want my resume here it is:
4 x Holden Gemini (3 x manual [2 x 4spd, 1 x 5spd], 1 x auto converted FROM manual)
1 x Datsun 200B (4spd manual)
1 x Ford Escort (4spd manual)
1 x Datsun 1200 (auto)
1 x Mazda RX4 (12A auto)
1 x Holden Barina (Suzuki Cino, 5spd manual)
2 x Holden Barina (Opel Corsa, 5spd manual)
1 x Mazda 121 (5spd manual)
1 x Nissan Pulsar (5spd manual)
2 x Toyota Cressida (both auto)

 

[Azuremen]

I agree, there are way to many manual transmission elitist here who seem to think you can't have fun or be in control of your vehicle unless you are selecting gears. We all have our own reasons for buying our vehicles the way we did. As I've said I think the idea that you can't be in control of your vehicle unless you are changing gears is down right foolish.

I'm sorry, but I am going to disagree a bit with you here. You can have more control using a manual. Clutch kicking, holding the car in gear approaching a corner, slipping the clutch when you want a little less power to the wheels in low gear, et cetera.

Its like playing GT5 with the D-pad on a PS controller versus a DFP or some other wheel. Are you in control with the D-pad? Yes. Do you have more with the wheel? Yes.

 

[Joey D]

Where did I ever say you can't have fun with an automatic? My Tbird was an automatic for a long time and I had loads of fun in it. Countless nights with my friend and I toying with the local rice burners, occasional trips to the drag strip, playing on some twisty mountain roads, etc. However, all of those activities are now even MORE fun with a manual. That DOES NOT mean that fun CANNOT be had with automatics. Stop twisting it around.

Here:

Again, not really. For a daily beater, haul-the-kids-around, work commuter car, automatics are fine. But for fun cars, nothing beats a manual. Automatics will never come close, in my opinion. I think you've misunderstood my points.

Judging by that you will have more fun with the manual over the automatic in every case. It's not twisting anything, it's responding to what you wrote.

You sure like to twist things around. Where did I say you can't have fun in an automatic? Read my above comment. Where did I say you CAN'T be in control of your car with an automatic? All I've said is that both of those things are ENHANCED with a manual (and obviously, the fun part is a matter of opinion). I NEVER said what you're insinuating. You need to stop with that junk. However, there are many posts in here describing the ENHANCED car control that manuals provide, and you should really look into reading them.

What makes you think I was solely talking about you? There are how many other post in this thread? I was quoting slowman in my post as well. not yours.

But since you asked:

I still don't have any idea how you come to that conclusion. With a manual, you dont have to switch "modes" to change the way the car shifts. I can launch the car hard, chirp the tires in 2nd gear, then shift the rest of the gears smooth as silk. In every newer automatic car I've been in, you also have to switch modes just to select your own gears (and btw, not every automatic car even has that option, so there goes the main point of gear selection CONTROL down the drain).

Well duh, you can corner the same. But can you go straight from 4th gear to 2nd and launch out of the turn? Also, not all autos are like yours. As I said, sometimes my old one would NOT downshift and would just bog down and severely hinder acceleration. How is that considered having control?

I disagree with the control being enhanced with a manual and there is no need for me to reiterate my points as I think I've pretty much done so enough times now. I think people need to read those to be honest. I know why people prefer manual transmissions, I just think some choose to ignore that autos can and are just as good.

Every manual car feels different, so you can't judge them based on just one car.

Every auto is different, so you can't judge them based on just one car.

 

[Azuremen]

Joey, you pretty much stated you'd be hosed if you auto-crossed with the automatic. That pretty much means you even think that manuals are superior for that driving. And why? Because they give more control.

Srsly mang... srsly...

 

[Joey D]

Joey, you pretty much stated you'd be hosed if you auto-crossed with the automatic. That pretty much means you even think that manuals are superior for that driving. And why? Because they give more control.

Srsly mang... srsly...

I said a manual would probablybe better, I'll never know because I don't ever plan on taking my car or any of my future cars to such an event. Like I said, I'm not a driving god and if I mess up and destroy something then it's game over. I know the likelihood of messing something up is lower but I still think I'm going to pass.

The only way I can see a manual being more useful in an autocross is being able to keep the car in second for most of the run, you could do the same thing slapsticking an auto...even though that would be awful for the trans.

But where on earth would you drive like that on a normal road? If you drove on a road like you do in a auto cross you deserve to have your license taken away. Even under spirited road driving you shouldn't be driving like that. My point is you can just as easily be in control and have fun with a good auto on road doing spirited driving.

 

[Duke]

I've said this every time the topic has come up, and I'll say it again:

I prefer a manual, both as a daily driver and a toy car, but I don't have a problem with automatics. I own both. I enjoy driving both.

Frankly, I don't give a crap which one is faster, because I'm not interested in making sure I can extract that last few tenths of a second in performance that I'll never get to use 99% of the time anyway.

I care about which one is more fun to drive, and for me, that's a traditional 3-pedal manual. No, I don't feel like Phil Hill every time I make the 2-3 upshift leaving the 7th traffic light on my way to work. But smoothly balancing the car using both hands and both feet is more involving and entertaining than just dropping it in D (or even using a faux manual). It's part of the dance that can make driving a true joy, not just 'fun'.

I understand the point behind automated manuals and modern 2-pedal DSG-type transmissions. It's just that bragging about being able to go from 0-60 in 3.7 seconds instead of 4.2 - or even 5 seconds - really doesn't hold that much interest for me. I don't need the transmission to respond in milliseconds; that's more of a testament to cubic money and engineering skill than it is to the driving experience.

Maybe we need a poll to get the numbers here.

 

[homeforsummer]

Ohhhh kaaayyyy. I go away for half a day and there's another page in the GT-R thread and a whole five-page topic on transmissions! Slow down guys

Right, my driving resume for anyone interested, in vague detail.
-Ford Fiesta Mk4 x2 (one mine in which I've done around 30k miles, one my driving school car): 5-speed manual
-MINI Cooper Works Cup car x3 (all three on a track, probably 30 or more laps across several days): 5-speed manual
-Mazda MX5 Mk1 x2 (also both on track, several laps again): 5-speed manual
-Ford Ka: 5-speed manual
-Mitsubishi Outlander V6 (current model, rental car in the USA, did roughly 200miles, though my friend did another 3k ish in the same car): 5-speed auto
-Chrysler PT Cruiser (another rental car in the States, did roughly 1600 miles, all me driving): 4-speed auto
-Mazda 2 1.5 sport (driven briefly around a short circuit): 5-speed manual
-Mazda MX5 Mk3 2.0 (ditto): 6-speed manual

So, not a huge amount of cars but interesting to note that all the manuals I've driven are pretty good gearboxes as a rule and are usually praised in road tests. The two autos only account for less than 2000 miles of driving so naturally my experience is biased in favour of the manuals.

However, I did enjoy the autos. It made it a hell of a lot easier adapting to driving on the other side of the road, they were great around town and for relaxed sightseeing, made easy progress in most motorway conditions (note: not all) and were certainly smooth changing. The Mitsubishi had a manual mode of sorts (knocking the lever to the side to choose your own ratios) but it was a bit rudimentary compared to something you'd find in a Merc, for example. What neither transmission dealt very well with were: hills (hunted for gears left, right and center) though the Outlander could at least be knocked into a single gear for it to stay there; spirited driving (mainly aimed at the PT - on twisty Route 1 the box and engine were hopeless, the handling was the only saving grace); and delicate, slow speed driving where clutch control is always a blessing.

I'm really a fence-sitter with this discussion - my preference for either transmission would be dictated by the sort of car it is:

I'd choose a manual (or DSG, sequential etc) for:
- Sports cars (e.g Lotus Elise)
- Supercars
- Any performance car (hot hatches, sports saloons etc)
- City cars (need a manual to extract best performance out of not a lot of engine)
- Anything size-wise up to and including BMW 3-series size

I'd choose a traditional auto for:
- Big stuff. 4x4s, pickups, MPVs, anything BMW 5-sized and up, luxury cars, motorhomes etc. If the car is big then it should be relaxing to drive.

Basically, I don't mind if I have to stir cogs in smaller cars because the driving experience is already a bit more "in your face" because it's noisier, there's less car around you, they probably don't have much power etc, so all in all the driving experience feels more involving and I like to keep that involvement there. Naturally, this also applies for sports cars and the like. And my own car. It's not the fastest thing in the world but at least being manual it can provide a bit of noisy fun and I can apply a bit of skill to driving it. As an auto it would just be another depressing small supermini.

However, for big stuff, you're enclosed in a cosseted, well-appointed space, with a massive vehicle around you, maybe high off the ground in an SUV, and in that situation frankly the last thing I would want to be doing is choosing my own gears. If I can't feel anything through the steering, pedals or my arse, then I may as well not feel anything through the gearstick too. Ideally I'd be wanting a wafty ride comfort as opposed to excellent handling too, which is why it amuses me when car magazines go on about a 7-series handling really well - it's a barge anyway so whether it handles like a 1-series or not really wouldn't bother me - not the car I'd choose for sporty driving...

Basically it boils down to involvement, as I mentioned in the GT-R thread. Some cars, I want involvement - and in these cars I'd go manual. In others, involvement wouldn't be much of a concern, so an auto would be perfect.

Before I leave this comment there's just one further thing I'd like to chuck out in the open, which is that a genuinely good manual can be a joy to use. The Mk1 MX5s I drove (and indeed the Mazda 2 and later MX5) all had brilliant, short-throw changes, very positive but with a nice action and no nasty mechanical crunch in the gate - it adds to the driving experience so much that it becomes a defining point about driving the car.

I'd suspect that even in a car with an absolutely brilliant auto, I'd probably not go away thinking "that gearbox made this car so much better". If it were a hopeless car with a revolutionary transmission then maybe, but generally a good auto will probably never enhance the driving experience as much as a good manual will.

 

[eiriksmil]

I said a manual would probablybe better, I'll never know because I don't ever plan on taking my car or any of my future cars to such an event.

You don't need to take your car to autocross to realise manual transmissions give you more control.. Take a drive down the road.


To the auto guys, if you drive onto an off-ramp ending in a corner and it's icy, you brake on the off-ramp and release both pedals in the corner, how will the auto act? Is there a chance of it changing gear in the middle of the corner, or do you have to press the gas for it to change gear? I haven't driven autos much..

 

[GilesGuthrie]

This discussion is largely distorted by consideration of those few occasions, by percentage, when it's just you, the car, and the road. When you're not simply trying to get to your destination before exhaustion overwhelms you. When you're not trying to drive smoothly so the kids don't vomit. You've all got the stereos blasting, no pregnant wife telling you to slow down, and nowhere to go. Or you're pretending you're on a race track.

In that case, yes, a manual is lovely. A manual gives you more interaction with the car. More scope for imposing your will upon it.

But for all other times, automatic boxes take a layer of effort out of driving. Why mess with the clutch and gears if you don't have to? If all you have to do is get through the lights so you can get home? If the children are shouting so loud you can't even hear the wail of the engine?

When you think about the daily grind of driving, there can be no doubt that autos make simple, repetitive, monotonous, boring journeys easier. Which is the greater type of drive in your life?

If I could choose, I'd have an auto as a daily driver, and something ludicrous (and manual) as a fun car.

 

[Joey D]

You don't need to take your car to autocross to realise manual transmissions give you more control.. Take a drive down the road.

I drive down the road every day with an auto and I never feel like I have less control of my car. Once again, I think that is a foolish thing to say.

To the auto guys, if you drive onto an off-ramp ending in a corner and it's icy, you brake on the off-ramp and release both pedals in the corner, how will the auto act? Is there a chance of it changing gear in the middle of the corner, or do you have to press the gas for it to change gear? I haven't driven autos much..

If it's icy and you apply the brakes it doesn't matter if you are in an auto of manual, you are going to slide.

This discussion is largely distorted by consideration of those few occasions, by percentage, when it's just you, the car, and the road. When you're not simply trying to get to your destination before exhaustion overwhelms you. When you're not trying to drive smoothly so the kids don't vomit. You've all got the stereos blasting, no pregnant wife telling you to slow down, and nowhere to go. Or you're pretending you're on a race track.

In that case, yes, a manual is lovely. A manual gives you more interaction with the car. More scope for imposing your will upon it.

But for all other times, automatic boxes take a layer of effort out of driving. Why mess with the clutch and gears if you don't have to? If all you have to do is get through the lights so you can get home? If the children are shouting so loud you can't even hear the wail of the engine?

When you think about the daily grind of driving, there can be no doubt that autos make simple, repetitive, monotonous, boring journeys easier. Which is the greater type of drive in your life?

If I could choose, I'd have an auto as a daily driver, and something ludicrous (and manual) as a fun car.

Well said 👍!

 

[///M-Spec]

I know!!! I hate that. Why do they do that? Those things are for people like us, why not take that into account?

My theory is that it was a Friday in October when Porsche execs decided to go with that setup.

Either that or some dumbass focus group thought it was a good idea.

I disagree that a standard four speed in a regular economy car will give you an un-enjoyable experience in corners. I think you are putting way to much into it. My best friend had a 2000 Mazda Protege DX automatic (with a blazing 105hp) as a loner car for about a week while his Ranger was being fixed by his uncle. His uncle said as long as we didn't destroy it he didn't care if we had fun with it, but we had to use common sense. We tossed it about (this was back in my slightly more reckless days) and I never once didn't have any fun with it. We threw it through corners, over hills, sideways through dirt turns, etc.

Fun it what you make of it, a manual or an auto do not determine this. I do agree that not all autos are equal though. The transmission in the Blazer was awful, mainly because it was broken and slipped really bad. However, as I've said the 6-speed auto in the MINI is awesome and I love, but I will agree it's not a standard auto...although more and more companies are moving towards larger range gearboxes now.

There are things in life that are "user preferences". Vanilla or chocolate. Blondes or Brunettes. There's not any right or wrong there and there's no need to justify what amounts to a personal choice. If you had fun in a Protoge auto, I'm not going to argue with you. What's fun is your business.

But there are many more things in life that are not subject to personal interpretation or preference. A 500 hp car makes more power than a 400 hp car. End of story. How it makes you feel is irrelevant.

So saying you had fun in a basic car with a slushbox does not prove anything, because the real issue here is the degree of control a driver can exercise over gear selection. This is less an issue of subjective preference and more one of an objective, measurable thing that is bound by empirical observation.

Most non-car people can't discern the difference between a 350 hp, 13-second car and a 450 hp, 12-second car. To them, it's just fast. But just because they don't observe a difference doesn't mean a difference doesn't exist.

It sounds like I simply expect more out of a car before I can start having fun than you do. That's not a slam or anything, just the facts.

My auto fits this criteria perfectly as long as I engage the "sport" button. I'm sure there are many other autos out there that fit this as well.

Well you car is a MINI and is sold in limited numbers to a specific market niche. It is a 'specialty car'. I've never driven one, but I'm sure BMW went through a lot of effort to make the tranny suit the car. But for every MINI on the road, there are hundreds of Camrys and the like.

You agree with me that not all automatics are the same. But yet it sounds like you want to use your MINI as an example that all automatics are as good as the one BMW put in your car.

...like when you made the following statement.

You are just as in control with an auto as you are with a manual, as said by others you are wishing to say you feel you are more involved.

With any auto?? A bog standard, non-performance auto with your only inputs being a throttle, "D" in the center console (with a possible "L" for low gear) and a little kick-down solenoid that tells the car to downshift?

I think that is false statement.

What if I want to change gears without going full throttle?

Or go full throttle, but stay in the same gear?

In a regular, plain-jane, non-performance automatic transmission (like the one I described above), there is no way for you to select a different gear WITHOUT changing the throttle position. This objectively limits your control choices. With a manual, gear choice is independent of throttle position.

You might want to say, "well some autos have 'L' or '2' with which you can select 1st or 2nd." To which my reply is "what happens when you want 3rd?"

Furthermore, plain-jane autos will upshift all by themselves when you lift off the throttle. A car that shifts gears on it's own accord is, by definition, a car that offers less control to it's driver.

I haven't and probably won't be in a situation where I'm pushing my car that hard. It's still a daily driver and if I screw up, because lets face it I'm not a driving god, I'm boned. For the amount of driving I do that could even remotely be considered "spirited" I will never get anywhere near the limit.

Sounds to me like you are confusing your personal limits with the car's limits.

It's perfectly okay to say "I'll never be able to use a 500 hp car, so I have no need for one".

It's another thing entirely to say "I'll never be able to use a 500 hp car, therefore a 200 hp car is just as fast".


Joey, I'm not calling you down because you chose to drive an auto. I have one too (wife's car is technically mine since my name is on it) and I enjoy it because of the things it can do that a manual can't. But I think you've gone overboard in defending your personal choice (which is perfectly justifiable) and have taken a position that is, in my mind, indefensible.

I have a MASSIVE driving resume compared to most of you guys. It makes me feel somewhat special.

Hmm... Do I need to check the batteries in my sarcasm meter? Or are you being serious?

I think I can answer that. If you forget that you know about racing style gearboxes for a second and pretend to be the average customer being in the market for a car, you will get this. When you accelerate, it is likely you will shift up. Thus, the average person will push the gear lever towards the direction of acceleration: to the front. If you brake and thus shift down, you go backwards relative to your previous speed (sounds a bit odd, but bear with me). That means that you want to pull the lever backwards. It's an intuition thing. Other than knowing that race cars have it differently, I am sure that the majority of people would have it this way if they were to choose. Acceleration = going forward = positive = pushing the lever / deceleration = going backwards = negative = pulling the lever.

As far as I know, the only reason why racing cars have it the other way around is simple: the forces acting on the driver. It's easier for him to pull when he's accelerating, and easier to push when he's braking. Therefore, the upshift means you pull and the downshift means you push.

Everything you posted makes logical sense to me.

However, I resent that a company like Porsche has chosen to cater to the average casual buyer rather than the enthusiast. I know why they made that decision. But I still resent it.


M

 

[eiriksmil]

If it's icy and you apply the brakes it doesn't matter if you are in an auto of manual, you are going to slide.

I wasn't talking about applying the brakes, I was asking whether the auto could downshift in the middle of a corner or not. Can it? And what if you start sliding? In a manual you can press the clutch and steer through the corner, what options have you got with an auto?