automatic vs manual

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quick question, when you set your transmission to auto, it isnt really auto is it? its manual but your not shifting, the computer does right? if you run a car in the las vagas drag in auto you always get the same time (assuming your just holding down the accelerator) mabey its just me but i never got a time better than the time i got using auto when i used manual. anyways, is there a trick using manual? like a proper launch or a perfect time to shift? any advice/comment is greatly appreciated.
 
The biggest advantage is that YOU decide when's the best time to shift, not the computer. Because when you're accelerating, the computer will always shift right at the redline, every single time. But, what if you want to take advantage of the lower gear's ratio for just a tad longer? With manual, you can let it go into the redline a bit (sometimes quite a bit, depending on the car). Or, if you have a car that starts to lose horsepower at very high RPMs, you can shift before the redline, in order to drop it back into a "powerful" horsepower zone. It varies from car to car, but the important factor is simply control. Right at the edge of redline isn't always the best place to shift. But only a person will know that, not the computer.
 
sounds right, but correct me if im wrong, isnt the best time to shift when your car makes peak power? (ex: 200hp @ 6000rpm) so why would you redline it if it makes the most power at 6000rpm. also assuming it redlines higher than 6000rpm. and just to be more clear, im talking about drag racing not laps around a track
 
I never use auto. cause the computer is too dumb to shift. If you shift by yourself ,you can see if a corner is coming up fast and not do the unnecessary upshift meaning a less lap time(less lap time=faster). Remember practise makes perfect 👍
 
streetsucka204
sounds right, but correct me if im wrong, isnt the best time to shift when your car makes peak power? (ex: 200hp @ 6000rpm) so why would you redline it if it makes the most power at 6000rpm. also assuming it redlines higher than 6000rpm. and just to be more clear, im talking about drag racing not laps around a track

No always true (but not always wrong - just a lot of the time) and it does not depend on track or strip.

Have a good read of the following, digest and understand, it will help make sense of it.

Shift points

This been discussed a number of times before and please don't get too upset if a good number of people come and start shouting about how you should have searched, etc (which to be honest you should have) before posting.

BTW - welcome to GT Planet, you will find one hell of a lot of info around here, always try and have a search first (good chance its been asked and answered before).

Regards

Scaff
 
As for the strip/track question. AT is useful at the strip for achieving bracket times (exact same time, over and over), but since it shifts at redline, and not always where the engine will max out, there are still a few tenths left in shifting for yourself.

On the track, I've tested numerous cars in both AT and MT mode. In general, AT will lose you maybe two or three seconds a lap or more, depending on how tight the layout is. Sure, you can use the R2 button to hold on to gears till redline, but the computer usually flummoxes 1-2 shifts when at the apex of a corner, and you'll struggle badly around slow corners... which is accurate, as many ATs do this in real life. Exceptions are cars which come with sporty AT transmissions in real-life, which shift smoother and more reliably in "robot" mode.
 
Yup, after switching to manual my cornering speeds went way up and so did control in the corners. There's nothing worse than with the auto and it won't shift down when you're in a corner and your power drops way off.
 
niky
Exceptions are cars which come with sporty AT transmissions in real-life, which shift smoother and more reliably in "robot" mode.

yeah, my brother has a BMW with the SMG auto-stick and it actually does quite a good job of shifting. Also does a good job of figuring out what kind of mood you're in, and adjusting the shift points accordingly.
So far its the only AT i've met that I was actually impressed with.
 
Another good "robot" is the Jaguar S-Type 6-speed automatic. Try it out sometime (in the game). It rarely ever "hunts" for gears. Still slower than shifting it yourself, but it's still fun.
 
Manual is awesome for braking too, used with your brakes of course. A downshift at just the right time is killer for going into corners fast and being in the right gear for exiting.
 
manual is better, but don't forget that some ATs can shift faster than any human IRL.

these are Audi DSG, BMW SMG, Ferrari "F1 Shift" (forgot exact name, something like that :P)
 
I find manual much more fun than auto. I gte more control over the car.
 
un_peacekeeper
manual is better, but don't forget that some ATs can shift faster than any human IRL.

these are Audi DSG, BMW SMG, Ferrari "F1 Shift" (forgot exact name, something like that :P)
EDIT: That sounded geeky.


The BMW feature is great, although I didn't know Ferrari had a system like BMW and Audi.
 
I won't use the technical talk.

Practice makes perfect.

With a lot of Mercs shifting up below the redline provides the best acceleration. Same with Vipers.

Try taking the said car to the test track and shift up at redline and then at a lower point or at a higher point if the rev limiter is higher. Compare ghosts.

At the drag strip you have a fixed / short distance so practice. You may gain if you can cut out one gear change.
 
doormeister
Manual is awesome for braking too, used with your brakes of course. A downshift at just the right time is killer for going into corners fast and being in the right gear for exiting.


ving
tried engine braking in an auto inthe game?

nuf said, manual for me :)

The engine exists to power a car on the track, not to slow it down.

I have looked in a lot of detail into compression braking in GT4 (its a subject I know a fair bit about in terms of its real world applications).

Have a look at the GT4 & Brakes thread for info on compression braking and the GT4 Vs Real world tests.

Regards

Scaff
 
McLaren F1GTR
EDIT: That sounded geeky.


The BMW feature is great, although I didn't know Ferrari had a system like BMW and Audi.

:lol: :lol: Ferrari started the trend for it in Formula 1 (1989) and were, to my knowledge, the first to put it in a production road car (the Mondial T was the first to get their semi-auto, I think, and that was around 1990).

But to get back to the first part of the original question, manual means you do it yourself, auto means it shifts by itself. So, auto mode on GT4 really is auto not manual, because it shifts gears autonomously. Similarly, systems like Ferrari's semi-auto box, also seen in the Alfa Selespeed cars, which uses a conventional clutch to transmit drive, can shift gears by itself. This is called "Auto" mode, and it means the car is now shifting automatically, so it's an automatic. Put it in manual mode, and you have to tell it when to change gear, so it's now a manual. hence such boxes are called "semi-automatic" since they swing both ways. To be fair, the same thing applies for any old fashioned slushbox (where drive is transmitted via a torque converter). Any automatic I've ever driven gives the option to manually shift the box into, typically, 2nd and 3rd gear. Porsche's Tiptronic system allowed the driver to manually select any gear in the box. So this could be a manual or an auto.
 
Problem with conventional auto-boxes is downshifts are generally too slow, and manual downshifting a P-R-N- D-2-1 in anger is likely to lead to boiling ATF and a wrecked torque converter.

I hate the fact that the Honda Fit W can't be shifted in the so-called "seven-speed" mode, and can only be used in the default "rubber-band" auto mode. It makes modifying it a chore, as wheelslip is guaranteed under full throttle at every corner (really stupid, as it can only be hopped up to 192hp). You'd think the rubber bands in the CVT tranny would snap under all that "power". :lol: ...makes the Fit W even more of a dog to drive than it should be, as it's actually quite fun in real life...





...but really slow. :D
 
Scaff
The engine exists to power a car on the track, not to slow it down.

I have looked in a lot of detail into compression braking in GT4 (its a subject I know a fair bit about in terms of its real world applications).

Have a look at the GT4 & Brakes thread for info on compression braking and the GT4 Vs Real world tests.

Regards

Scaff
Engine braking on GT4 is pretty unrealistic, it just doesn't seem to have as bigger effect as in reality. My friends and I do a hell of a lot of hill driving (usually at speed) and going downhill engine braking is very important to help slow your car down, if you just used brakes you'd cook them. I remember when my mate's Silvia was at the panel beaters and we took his old auto Laser for a lap round the hills, it had jack all engine braking when when you shifted down in it and we overheaded the brakes and the car made all kinds of unsavoury smells :crazy:.
 
The only time I've really made a point to do engine-braking in real life was in a car that didn't have much in the way of brakes... I'm rather glad it was a manual.. hehe.

Which was a rather funny story, too.. Along with poor brakes, it also had a very poor clutch (jerky gear changes, etc). I had borrowed the car from a friend of mine to pick up another friend of mine to go catch some all-you-can-eat. On the way there, he kept laughing at me, saying that I still didn't know how to drive a stick. Naturally, he didn't believe me when I told him it was the car. So, on the way back, he drove... he believed me after that when I said it was the car, because he did no better (even though he's always been better than me at a stick.. he drove an RX-7 for a number of years, where my own cars have always been automatics).
 
I've really only ever driven manuals (only driven an auto once for 5 minutes) and engine braking was one of the first things my dad tought my when I was learning to drive. My car's front brake pads are screwed at the moment and I can't afford to replace them (gonna have to though, warrant expires in about a week) and I'm using plenty of engine braking so they don't wear out any quicker.
 
Mad Murphy NZ
Engine braking on GT4 is pretty unrealistic, it just doesn't seem to have as bigger effect as in reality. My friends and I do a hell of a lot of hill driving (usually at speed) and going downhill engine braking is very important to help slow your car down, if you just used brakes you'd cook them. I remember when my mate's Silvia was at the panel beaters and we took his old auto Laser for a lap round the hills, it had jack all engine braking when when you shifted down in it and we overheaded the brakes and the car made all kinds of unsavoury smells :crazy:.

Have you read the stuff I have put in the GT4 & Brakes section?

The point you make about using compression braking to control a cars decent on a hill in a real world situation is discussed. I have no problem with the use of compresion braking in real world situations on the road.

My points were that compression braking has no place on the track (unless your brakes are shot or we are talking about racing historics) and that compression braking is not as badly implemented in GT4 as people think.

Take a look at the GT4 & Brakes thread, you may be surprised by the results.

Regards

Scaff
 
As a newbie asked the question let me add this. You can get quicker times with manual rather than auto in GT3 & GT4 (and I presume GT1&2) for the reasons discussed above. Note: I completed both games; 100% all golds etc, with DS2 + auto, but when I need it, eg improving gold license/lap times or just for a change, I then use manual.


Steven
 
As has been pointed out, engine braking is really only required in a car with inadequate brakes. It was popular, therefore, in the '50s and earlier when most cars sported weak drum brakes, and is a technique that has little requirement on the road today except for the drivers of Artics, who will find their brakes to be marginal when going downhill. Engine braking, as an emergency procedure, may save your life one day when your brakes fail or you manage to boil your brake fluid on the road, but in normal driving it has no huge use, like heel-and-toe, which lost its neccessity with the introduction of synchromesh. All the driving instructors I have sat next to have always taught to decelerate with the brakes, and only select the required gear once finished with braking. Effective compression braking was never encouraged. Keeping both hands on the wheel while braking was deemed more important.

It is worth noting that Colin Chapman of Lotus actually went to the effort of developing their famed "queerbox", as mounted in the Lotus 79, to freewheel under deceleration, to avoid compression braking. His reasoning was that the effect of compression braking changes with engine revs, making it an inconsistency that his drivers could do without when on the limit of braking adhesion. Again as has been mentioned, he was effectively saying that the brakes are there to slow the car down and the engine is there to speed the car up.
 
Alfaholic
As has been pointed out, engine braking is really only required in a car with inadequate brakes. It was popular, therefore, in the '50s and earlier when most cars sported weak drum brakes, and is a technique that has little requirement on the road today except for the drivers of Artics, who will find their brakes to be marginal when going downhill. Engine braking, as an emergency procedure, may save your life one day when your brakes fail or you manage to boil your brake fluid on the road, but in normal driving it has no huge use, like heel-and-toe, which lost its neccessity with the introduction of synchromesh. All the driving instructors I have sat next to have always taught to decelerate with the brakes, and only select the required gear once finished with braking. Effective compression braking was never encouraged. Keeping both hands on the wheel while braking was deemed more important.

It is worth noting that Colin Chapman of Lotus actually went to the effort of developing their famed "queerbox", as mounted in the Lotus 79, to freewheel under deceleration, to avoid compression braking. His reasoning was that the effect of compression braking changes with engine revs, making it an inconsistency that his drivers could do without when on the limit of braking adhesion. Again as has been mentioned, he was effectively saying that the brakes are there to slow the car down and the engine is there to speed the car up.

Alfa

I quite agree with most of what you have said above and if its OK I would like to 'borrow' (with a credit to yourself) the Colin Chapman/Lotus bit for the GT4 & Brakes thread.

The only two areas I would questions are:

Truck brakes are not marginal in performance (even downhill), in fact in most countries they are subject to far more stringent safety checks than passenger car brakes. They do however generate far more heat and therefore fade more quickly than passenger car brakes. Hence the reason why most large trucks run 'Jake Brakes' in which the engine compression is used to assist the regular brakes.

The other area is in regard to Heel and Toe; while strictly speaking you are right that it is not needed for modern road cars as they are all fitted with syncros on all gears. That however is not the only reason to heel and toe; I must confess to using heel and toe on every downshift, for three reasons. The first is to keep in practice, the second is that it does smooth out gear changes and avoids compression braking and the final one is because I do enjoy 'spirited' road driving.

Regards

Scaff
 
Alfaholic
:lol: :lol: Ferrari started the trend for it in Formula 1 (1989) and were, to my knowledge, the first to put it in a production road car (the Mondial T was the first to get their semi-auto, I think, and that was around 1990).

(...)

Porsche's Tiptronic system allowed the driver to manually select any gear in the box. So this could be a manual or an auto.

Yeah, Ferrari has a gearbox in the Enzo that has tons of settings. And I believe you're right on them being the first.

However, I would have to question you about the Tiptronic. Audi also uses the Tiptronic on some vehicles, as they are in the same VW Group. Even Bentley uses it. Anyways, I don't get how you can manually select any gear for the gearbox. It's not in my Audi. It's sequential, up and down.

Audi A6:
xxl0002.jpg

Porsche 911:
tiptronic-porsche.jpg


And I think you're getting a bit mixed up about semi-auto. A semi-auto is just a automatic transmission that lets you override it, but some are different. Some semi-autos are just sequential manual gearboxes with automatic clutch.
 
I use manual in the game - gives you more control over the car. In real life I use tiptronic which is a manual without a clutch - its worse than manual but less effort is needed to shift. However I feel manual is a bit like SMG/tiptronic/F1 style paddle shifts due to no clutch and the sound of the gear change.
 
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