automatic vs manual

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Scaff
The engine exists to power a car on the track, not to slow it down.

I have looked in a lot of detail into compression braking in GT4 (its a subject I know a fair bit about in terms of its real world applications).

Have a look at the GT4 & Brakes thread for info on compression braking and the GT4 Vs Real world tests.

Regards

Scaff
picky picky! no know what i mean! :p

works fine for me :)
 
The idea behind an AUTOMATIC transmission is that the car AUTOMATICally shifts gears for you.

MANUAL transmission means that you shift gears MANUALly.

Definitions? What?
 
One thing to point out - we say "auto or manual" - but the manual mode is hardly manual at all. We just push a button, and GT changes the gear for us, we are not actually changing the gear itself. IRL the manual stick is directly shifting the cogs about; the auto IRL doesn't. I would prefer to compare GT's manual to a semi-auto paddle system - you can choose as and when to shift, but the computer still makes the actual shift for you. Anyone who has a steering wheel for GT4 probably uses paddles when driving in "Manual" - hardly manual then is it?? GT at best gives you a semi-auto.

I do wish they had an option like Colin McRae Rally 04/5's semi-auto - the CPU changes gear, but you can override it :dopey: means you don't have to worry about every shift, useful for endurances I would thinkk
 
I think the original point of the thread is the "feel" of the shift... strange to talk about it that way, as shift-feel is perceived visually rather than viscerally in GT.

But I find the shifting reasonably authentic, especially in lower-powered cars. Sure, you could shift faster in real life than you can "manually" in GT, but you can also shift much slower, with flubbed shifts, grinding synchros and balky boxes... so from a performance point of view, I think its a pretty even trade.
 
Crazy thing is I just joined WRS and ended up in Div III - I placed 9th this week in that Div but much lower over all (if I were to sort all 3 divs as one...)

Anyway, I JUST finished posting (not 15 minutes ago) about my slower times prolly being blamed on my lack of using manual in the game. I'm going to read all those helpful links everyone has posted, and then I think I'm finally going to make the switch, everyone seems to agree you get faster laps and more control.

In RL I've got a manual - and won't own/drive anything else (unless I absolutely have to) but the one thing I would have to say about engine braking is something a friend of mine told me a long time ago just after they bought a new Saturn and what the mechanic told them.

It's MUCH cheaper to replace a set of brakes than a transmission. ;)

Still, I use engine braking all the time, couldn't imagine doing it any other way in the car I've got (see my sig).

My 2 cents,

UMP
 
Scaff
Alfa

I quite agree with most of what you have said above and if its OK I would like to 'borrow' (with a credit to yourself) the Colin Chapman/Lotus bit for the GT4 & Brakes thread.

Not a problem. But, I'll dig out the book I read it in, and confirm the details for you on the bit. Then it can be credited to its true source, which was Doug Nye in conjunction with Chapman himself. Yup, it's an old book...

Scaff
I must confess to using heel and toe on every downshift, for three reasons. The first is to keep in practice, the second is that it does smooth out gear changes and avoids compression braking and the final one is because I do enjoy 'spirited' road driving.

While we're in confessional, I'll confess to two things: I will downshift instead of braking if I feel a complete stop is not imminent, for no better reason than it bugs me when driving in a stream of cars when the person in front is constantly applying brakes without really slowing down. When he does suddenly brake hard, I'm less prepared for it unless I had a clear view of conditions ahead of him. I assume someone behind me will have the same problem and I don't want to be rear ended because my driving habits caused the person behind me to under react when I had to brake hard. I also prefer to the better response I then have immediately available to the throttle than I would have if I was in a higher gear and using the brakes.

Second confessional: I double clutch my downshifts and I heel and toe. The reason I started this is because my much missed Alfa had a worn synchromesh on second gear. This will be no surprise to anyone familiar to the Alfetta range. The result was that I had to be gentle when shifting from first to second, but there was absolutely no way I could shift down into second. It would crunch and moan, and not engage, unless I double-clutched it in. If I wanted to change down into second gear while still braking, then of course I had to heel-and-toe. But, I've got small feet and I found the Alfa's pedals slightly too far apart to heel and toe, so I used to actually brake with my ankle twisted clockwise so my heel was on the brakes and my toes covering the throttle.

The reason I continue to heel and toe is because once while driving a FF Nissan, I managed to lock the front wheels while braking really hard for a corner, and downshifting without double clutching. It was a nasty experience and I am sure it wasn't very good for the car either.

Nowadays it's just a habit. It also makes the gearshift less reluctant, so I assume double clutching downshifts is easier on the gearbox..

But it's not a required skill to being a perfectly competent and fast road driver.


Oh, and Peacekeeper, what I meant was that most slushboxes I have had the misfortune of piloting have only allowed the manual selection of 2nd and 3rd gear, but not 1st and top. Tiptronic, which first appeared on a 911 in 1989 (I think. Maybe it was 1988) was an automatic gearbox that allowed the selection of all gears from 1st to top. The selection indeed had to be sequential, but there was nothing stopping the driver from shifting down from top to first via fourth, third and second as fast as he could, apart from some anti - overrevving software. I call the clutchless manual gearbox semi automatics because that's what Ferrari called theirs in their F1 car, and because those based on a manual gearbox are far from clutchless. To prove that, just try a three point turn in a Ferrari with a paddleshift, and then inhale deeply to verify the presence of a frying clutch.
 
lol, the frying clutch, i got u.

yeah, i hate the anti-overrevving software, won't let you shift down if you are going to go past redline...shifts automatically when at redline, won't let u shift up if u are going to stall (lol)...etc
 
Alfaholic
Not a problem. But, I'll dig out the book I read it in, and confirm the details for you on the bit. Then it can be credited to its true source, which was Doug Nye in conjunction with Chapman himself. Yup, it's an old book...

Thats great, if you PM me with the details and source I will get them added to the GT4 & Brakes thread along with credit to yourself.

Alfaholic
Second confessional: I double clutch my downshifts and I heel and toe. The reason I started this is because my much missed Alfa had a worn synchromesh on second gear. This will be no surprise to anyone familiar to the Alfetta range. The result was that I had to be gentle when shifting from first to second, but there was absolutely no way I could shift down into second. It would crunch and moan, and not engage, unless I double-clutched it in. If I wanted to change down into second gear while still braking, then of course I had to heel-and-toe. But, I've got small feet and I found the Alfa's pedals slightly too far apart to heel and toe, so I used to actually brake with my ankle twisted clockwise so my heel was on the brakes and my toes covering the throttle.

The reason I continue to heel and toe is because once while driving a FF Nissan, I managed to lock the front wheels while braking really hard for a corner, and downshifting without double clutching. It was a nasty experience and I am sure it wasn't very good for the car either.

Nowadays it's just a habit. It also makes the gearshift less reluctant, so I assume double clutching downshifts is easier on the gearbox.

I've had the same lack of/worn syncro in a number of cars myself, forces you to learn quickly. I still love driving knackered old sheds, they may be slow but you have to be so measured in everything you do, its fun in its own strange way.

On the subject of FWD Nissans, I had a very similar incident in my old Primera, a car that is in GT4.

Primera 2.0e GT (as it was called in the UK)


EBC greenstuff pads, EBC discs, K&N replacement air filter and stainless steel exhaust (minus the cat). Wonderful car, I've set my GT4 version up as close as I could to my old car and I love the way it drives, nice turn in and very good balance for a FWD car, strongly sugest you give it a go.

Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
On the subject of FWD Nissans, I had a very similar incident in my old Primera, a car that is in GT4.

Primera 2.0e GT (as it was called in the UK)


EBC greenstuff pads, EBC discs, K&N replacement air filter and stainless steel exhaust (minus the cat). Wonderful car, I've set my GT4 version up as close as I could to my old car and I love the way it drives, nice turn in and very good balance for a FWD car, strongly sugest you give it a go.

I love that car. I had a Sentra with the same engine and similar dynamics. It rolls a lot (like the Primera / G20) but was a hoot to drive after being set-up.

okay, back on topic.
 
I use manual now, automatic was boring. Plus, having to shift keeps me up during long races. :)
 
Yea, gotta love Primeras. My dad has one and it's great fun to race round in, I love taking it for laps round the hills or up to the mountains though it badly needs a wheel alignment.
 
Scaff
EBC greenstuff pads, EBC discs, K&N replacement air filter and stainless steel exhaust (minus the cat). Wonderful car, I've set my GT4 version up as close as I could to my old car and I love the way it drives, nice turn in and very good balance for a FWD car, strongly sugest you give it a go.

I ran a Nissan Sabre for a few years in SA, a 1.6 model. I got it after having the booted version (a Sentra) as a hire car for a couple of weeks. The Opel that I had been running was history after that experience... those things had very, very good balance for FF cars. They were throttle adjustable and the only handling vice was a habit of picking up and spinning the inside front wheel when accelerating out of a tight bend, which meant you would lose drive. I wouldn't have called it sporty or agile, because it was fairly softly sprung and didn't have the sharpest turn in, but it was so adjustable and predictable. I was happy to punt that car down any mountain pass I could find, because it felt like it was having as much fun as I was. All the controls felt right, the driving position was right... best company car I ever had. It was perhaps a bit noisy, but you can always buy a louder stereo. Never driven the Primeras but I heard they were similar but better.

In the UK I think the Sentra was a Sunny, and the Sabre is a 5 door hatchback Sunny with a facelift and factory bodykit.

I have a lot of respect for Nissan. The Sabre wasn't the one I locked the front wheels on BTW. That was an older Sentra, from about 1990. It was my boss's car, and I was at the time returning from the Nissan factory with a new silencer in the boot to replace the one I had damaged the week before when I yumped the car :sick:
 

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