B-spec. WHY!?!

  • Thread starter Thread starter gambleboyen
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The only difference between difficulty levels provided by the game and difficulty levels provided by yourself is that the former is provided by the developer and the latter by yourself. Other than that there is no difference.

Let's go for a third time:

Completing a challenge where you had to restrain yourself from dominating it is...what?
 
Let's go for a third time:

Completing a challenge where you had to restrain yourself from dominating it is...what?

The entire point is that you create a challenge that suits your skill level, so there's no need to restrain yourself.
 
The entire point is that you create a challenge that suits your skill level...

By restraining yourself. By giving yourself substandard equipment. By giving the opponent a head start. By setting alternative goals that are above and beyond what the race actually requires, like lapping the field. By doing anything that hinders your ability to meet the goals given to you by the game.

Quit fluffing around with words and answer the question.

Lucky number four:

Completing a challenge where you had to restrain yourself from dominating it is...what?
 
By restraining yourself. By giving yourself substandard equipment. By giving the opponent a head start. By setting alternative goals that are above and beyond what the race actually requires, like lapping the field. By doing anything that hinders your ability to meet the goals given to you by the game.

Quit fluffing around with words and answer the question.

Lucky number four:

Completing a challenge where you had to restrain yourself from dominating it is...what?

Again, if it's beneath you to play a game with anything less than the very best equipment and the very best aids then that's your choice. My choice is to pick my equipment based on what kind of challenge I want, and obviously it gives me a better experience than what you're getting.
 
Again, if it's beneath you to play a game with anything less than the very best equipment and the very best aids then that's your choice. My choice is to pick my equipment based on what kind of challenge I want, and obviously it gives me a better experience than what you're getting.

Except that you apparently get as much entertainment from beating a child when you started with no queen, as you do from a straight battle with a chess master.

Which is great for you, but do you seriously not see how that might not be true for everyone?

Do you not see that while both of these games might be fun, one is played under conditions that are purely designed to ensure an enjoyable game between unequal opponents where both players have a real chance at winning, while the other is a straight up measure of relative skill?

You're starting to argue against things that I haven't said. I said that you can't get the same satisfaction of winning through skill from a game that lets you win. You're turning this into some elitist nonsense.

See what I said earlier:

The only way to get satisfaction is not to be aware of how easy it is. Or be deriving your satisfaction from some source that is not related to the "skill" involved to play the game.

Note that I'm not using satisfaction as a synonym for "fun" or anything like that, I'm purely using it as that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you perform at or beyond what you thought was your skill level, and achieve something that shows you that you are this good.

I'm not the world's greatest racer, but I manage to maintain an iRating on iRacing of about 2000. I'm proud of that as I feel that I've earned it through my hard work and skill. When I beat racers who are much lower ranked than me I don't see that as something I should feel especially good about, but when I beat people who are equal or higher then I think that I should feel good about myself.

Maybe people get proud of beating the B Spec AI. I don't see why they should be, and I don't see how any rational person could be if they were aware of how the B Spec AI works. You can make your own little challenges, but then you're really only beating yourself. You're not playing the same game, just as a game of chess where one player starts with no queen isn't the same as a real chess game.

People can get their jollies however they want, hence the popularity of things like Farmville. But Farmville and things like B Spec do not provide satisfaction based on skill, because it's not there. If you had a chance to lose, you had it because you put it there, not because the computer was actually capable of beating you.

I'm not saying that B Spec isn't fun to you and people like you, because it obviously is. I'm saying that the enjoyment is not the satisfaction of skill triumphing over the competition. It's something else, like skill triumphing even though you tried really, really hard to make it not.

You may want to read up on the AI threads, where the same discussion goes on. But competitions between unequal drivers in unequal machinery are not the same as competitions where all non-driver aspects are as near to equal as possible. They can produce similar outcomes, sometimes, but they are not the same and the majority of the time they do not play out the same.


I'm not sure why I bother. You've clearly put a reasonable amount of time into designing B Spec challenges for yourself, and so your sense of self-worth in the game is directly related to you believing that those challenges are equivalent to a real test of skill.

You're not going to admit otherwise, because to do so would be to admit that actually you're just doing it for fun, and that it's not really a true test of your skill at all. Which is funny, because doing things for fun is just fine. But the cupcake generation has to feel like they're achieving something and that they're special and skilled at the same time. It's not true, and it doesn't need to be.

Play for fun, and don't be afraid to admit that it's not a test of skill. It's OK.
 
Except that you apparently get as much entertainment from beating a child when you started with no queen, as you do from a straight battle with a chess master.

Which is great for you, but do you seriously not see how that might not be true for everyone?

Do you not see that while both of these games might be fun, one is played under conditions that are purely designed to ensure an enjoyable game between unequal opponents where both players have a real chance at winning, while the other is a straight up measure of relative skill?

You're starting to argue against things that I haven't said. I said that you can't get the same satisfaction of winning through skill from a game that lets you win. You're turning this into some elitist nonsense.

See what I said earlier:



Note that I'm not using satisfaction as a synonym for "fun" or anything like that, I'm purely using it as that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you perform at or beyond what you thought was your skill level, and achieve something that shows you that you are this good.

I'm not the world's greatest racer, but I manage to maintain an iRating on iRacing of about 2000. I'm proud of that as I feel that I've earned it through my hard work and skill. When I beat racers who are much lower ranked than me I don't see that as something I should feel especially good about, but when I beat people who are equal or higher then I think that I should feel good about myself.

Maybe people get proud of beating the B Spec AI. I don't see why they should be, and I don't see how any rational person could be if they were aware of how the B Spec AI works. You can make your own little challenges, but then you're really only beating yourself. You're not playing the same game, just as a game of chess where one player starts with no queen isn't the same as a real chess game.

People can get their jollies however they want, hence the popularity of things like Farmville. But Farmville and things like B Spec do not provide satisfaction based on skill, because it's not there. If you had a chance to lose, you had it because you put it there, not because the computer was actually capable of beating you.

I'm not saying that B Spec isn't fun to you and people like you, because it obviously is. I'm saying that the enjoyment is not the satisfaction of skill triumphing over the competition. It's something else, like skill triumphing even though you tried really, really hard to make it not.

You may want to read up on the AI threads, where the same discussion goes on. But competitions between unequal drivers in unequal machinery are not the same as competitions where all non-driver aspects are as near to equal as possible. They can produce similar outcomes, sometimes, but they are not the same and the majority of the time they do not play out the same.


I'm not sure why I bother. You've clearly put a reasonable amount of time into designing B Spec challenges for yourself, and so your sense of self-worth in the game is directly related to you believing that those challenges are equivalent to a real test of skill.

You're not going to admit otherwise, because to do so would be to admit that actually you're just doing it for fun, and that it's not really a true test of your skill at all. Which is funny, because doing things for fun is just fine. But the cupcake generation has to feel like they're achieving something and that they're special and skilled at the same time. It's not true, and it doesn't need to be.

Play for fun, and don't be afraid to admit that it's not a test of skill. It's OK.

I don't agree with your definition of satisfaction as a feeling derived only from skill. And I don't agree that creating a challenge for yourself means that no skill is involved in beating the challenge. Seriously, if I put comfort hard tyres on my GT40 and race against the AI, is there no skill involved?

Yes, I made the challenge. Yes, I can make the challenge easier or harder by my own choice. It's still a challenge and it still takes skill to beat it. It still provides satisfaction, both derived from skill and from other sources, such as the satisfaction of winning and the satisfaction of watching a thrilling race.
 
I don't agree with your definition of satisfaction as a feeling derived only from skill.

It doesn't matter. I'm telling you what I meant when I said it, not trying to redefine the word. I'm aware that the word has a range of meanings, so I'm trying to be clear about what I mean.

If you want to call it something else, then do so, but that definition is what I mean to convey by the word "satisfaction" in my posts.

You can argue that I didn't mean what I meant if you like, but I doubt you'll get very far.
 
It doesn't matter. I'm telling you what I meant when I said it, not trying to redefine the word. I'm aware that the word has a range of meanings, so I'm trying to be clear about what I mean.

If you want to call it something else, then do so, but that definition is what I mean to convey by the word "satisfaction" in my posts.

You can argue that I didn't mean what I meant if you like, but I doubt you'll get very far.

Well, as far as the statement "if there's no skill involved then there can't be satisfaction from skill" goes it's obviously correct.

But you'd also have to agree with me when I say that a challenge isn't stripped of requiring skill just because it was constructed by yourself.

Just look at your own example of chess without a queen: winning such a game - even if you removed the queen yourself - does requires skill.

Then we arrive at: "if there is skill involved then there may be satisfaction from skill".
 
B-Spec...just food for thought for all those people who don't consider who else is out there and maybe how it can impact people...I served overseas many years and actually two of my buddies in overseas incidents have lost hands/ arms, bit since they used to be into car racing sims before and want to be able to enjoy sims even now, THEY DO appreciate B SPEC VERY MUCH!!! and yes they are thankful for that and thankful to be alive and being able to keep sane with even the smallest things, with GT6 B-Spec!!!! so B-SPEC is great and PD shoulf expand it and make it better for them and for all others who love and use B-Spec! here example: my dad, who is close to 70 and purchased a PS3 and GT6 just for the B-Spec mode!!!!
 
The entire point is that you create a challenge that suits your skill level, so there's no need to restrain yourself.

Such as in Skyrim where the player has the option to choose a difficulty level from Novice to Legendary.

I enjoyed setting myself the goal of taking out a Legendary Dragon armed only with a bow and arrow, with the difficulty set to Legendary. Building up to that took a couple of months. The next goal was to do the same with a dagger. (In each hand.)

Achieving these goals with the difficulty set to Novice would have been pointless.

Back to B-Spec. Probably the best example of getting a sense of satisfaction is in NASCAR races with the PP trimmed a bit. It's challenging, involving, rewarding and fun. But not for all.
 
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PD should make B-Spec more in depth, more manager style and offer a lot more races under this B-Spec mode for everyone. the professionals are fewer waaaat fewer than the "love of car" fans and others who just simply love cars and want to play GT6 or GT series past and present!
 

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