Back Markers Poll "What to do?"

[Radracing]

Just read an article about how Hamilton sounds like he owns the track from his coments about the new teams being to dangerous and doing a poor job of getting out of the way sooner than he likes or maybe out right just pull of the track to his liking. What do you guys think?

Moderator: Could you pleas move this to the F1 thread. THX!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The thing about the run-in with di Grassi is that it was just bad timing. Di Grassi moved over to let Hamilton and Vettel through, but they all met each other going into the apex of turn one. Three different cars, all travelling at different speeds was never an ideal situation, and I should hardly think di Grassi is to blame for it. He did the rght thing in getting out of the way, but he can hardly pull over until the bigger kids are done playing.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

The thing about the run-in with di Grassi is that it was just bad timing.

Bad timing by Di Grassi, in that he slowed down too soon

He almost parked his car on the apex.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Well, what was he supposed to do? He was no doubt expecting the other two to lap him before they got into the corner. When you're travelling at 300km/h, it's a little bit difficult to look into a rearview mirror the size of a mobile telephone and judge the relative speed and position of two faster cars coming up behind you as you enter the heaviest braking zone on the circuit without getting your own line wrong and running off the circuit.

 

[Radracing]

I think if I'm allowed to be in the race I should be allowed to race whatever my lap times are and people lapping me should just be aware of my speed and pass at the right time. Being blue flag and told to just let everyone lapping me is no fun when you can't even race because you are always looking in your rearview mirrors or slowing down when you are also trying to makeup time to catch at least the guy ahead of you. I mean if they didn't want me to race they should have just disqualified me to be too slow or off pace for the race at all. That is why I think it the race should be open to whomever can qualify that can actually be on pace. You would then even have a more exciting prequalifiying race before the actual race.

In other forms of racing with different classes involved in a race they usaually don't blue flag you. The faster cars just have to pass at the apportune time as long as you don't intentionally block the faster class racers.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Well, what was he supposed to do?

Continue through the corner. The difference in lap time doesn't all come in one corner.

I think if I'm allowed to be in the race I should be allowed to race whatever my lap times are and people lapping me should just be aware of my speed and pass at the right time. Being blue flag and told to just let everyone lapping me is no fun when you can't even race because you are always looking in your rearview mirrors or slowing down when you are also trying to makeup time to catch at least the guy ahead of you. I mean if they didn't want me to race they should have just disqualified me to be too slow or off pace for the race at all. That is why I think it the race should be open to whomever can qualify that can actually be on pace. You would then even have a more exciting prequalifiying race before the actual race.

I somewhat agree. I think the backmarkers should let them through, but not to the extent where they are basically parking their cars on the circuit. They should do it when it's relatively convenient, maybe slow a little and move off-line on a decent straight portion of the circuit.

 

[Northstar]

Passing lapped cars is just a part of racing, as is complaining about them.

I do think they need some sort of communication though(other than a blue flag). In sports car racing there is the flashing of the lights, NASCAR has spotters to tell you when a lead car is passing. F1 doesn't have anything of that sort that I'm aware of. Perhaps they could work out a system so a light comes on on the steering wheel to signal a faster car is approaching.

 

[Seismica]

I somewhat agree. I think the backmarkers should let them through, but not to the extent where they are basically parking their cars on the circuit. They should do it when it's relatively convenient, maybe slow a little and move off-line on a decent straight portion of the circuit.

This.

The backmarkers shouldn't have to get out of the way mid corner. The only real safe way is for them to let faster cars past on the straights. The problem is where you get multiple cars approaching at once, like we saw with Schumacher, Button and Massa passing one of the Hispania cars, and indeed the thing with Di Grassi. You need more experience to know what to do straight away in those situations. It's where the younger drivers show their inexperience.

So far this season I think they've been doing fine. If the faster drivers think the traffic here is bad they should attempt the Nurburgring 24 hours in a top class car. Passing 20+ cars per lap easily, and the road is quite narrow.

EDIT: I put the wrong answer for the poll, I meant the blue flag, but I put open field. Same thing in my eyes, the back markers still have the opportunity to do a fast lap.

 

[kikie]

The OP forgot a 5th poll option.

• Give Hamilton a rewind button, so he can try again and stop whining.

 

[Famine]

In all other motorsport besides F1, a blue flag is a notification of a faster car behind you. The obligation for the safe pass is on the faster car. In F1 it's come to mean "dive out of the way, someone more expensive is coming" - though it didn't during the 80s...

 

[Clark]

There shouldn't be any change from the usual.

 

[Ardius]

The way I see it, if you are a lap down on the leaders, you have lost your right to get in their way. Simple as that.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The way I see it, if you are a lap down on the leaders, you have lost your right to get in their way. Simple as that.

But that doesn't mean you have the responsibility to put yourself in jeopardy for the sake of someone else. Sure, di Grassi could have pulled off the circuit and basically ruin his own race simply so that the leaders could get by. A better solution would have been to keep going through the first sequence of corners and let them through after the third turn.

 

[Seismica]

In all other motorsport besides F1, a blue flag is a notification of a faster car behind you. The obligation for the safe pass is on the faster car.

But more often than not those are for cars in a different class.

It can be said that the HRT is in a different class, but not the Lotuses and the Virgins, they're close enough to the front runners to be considered part of the same class in my opinion.

I think the slower cars should be expected to move aside on the straights, or keep the racing line and allow for the pass (Which should be decided amongst the drivers which is the best route to take with that).

But during the corners or through tighter sections I don't think the slower cars should be expected to get out of the way at all, the fasters cars should wait until there is a clear and safe pass on the straights.

I honestly don't think the HRT should be allowed to compete on a circuit like Monaco, a special exception should be made. They're going to be lapped 3 times at least by the top 6 or 7 cars, meaning once it hits a certain point in the race they're going to be a constant roadblock for the front runners. On the more open tracks it's not a problem. And nor do I feel it is that much of a problem in qualifying, but in the race? No. They should bring back the 107% qualifying rule.

It has been different in the past. Because of the reliance on aerodynamic grip and the difficulty the drivers have in passing eachother, the problem is so much greater now than it used to be.

 

[daan]

They should bring back the 107% qualifying rule.

The HRTs are within 107% of Kubica's FP3 time.

 

[Famine]

But more often than not those are for cars in a different class.

Nope. Right down to single-marque series - MaX5, Tuscan Challenge, even Formula Woman. The responsibility to make any pass safe - whether an overtake or lapping - is on the driver performing the manouevre.

Except in F1.

 

[senamic]

Nope. Right down to single-marque series - MaX5, Tuscan Challenge, even Formula Woman. The responsibility to make any pass safe - whether an overtake or lapping - is on the driver performing the manouevre.

Except in F1.

Formula Woman? I assume that is like other formulae, except men cannot take part? More affirmitive action (read: discrimination against males) in the world, wonderful. But I digress, this isn't an ethics of chauvinism vs. equality vs. feminism discussion. Personally, I always thought you had 3 blue flags, and on the third one you had to move or incur a penalty. I see no problem with that, as drivers have time to find an appropriate area to move aside. What I object to is when the top drivers think that lapping cars should move aside at once, as they have every right to wait for a safe moment.

 

[Famine]

Formula Woman? I assume that is like other formulae, except men cannot take part?

It was a series meant to find a female racing driver. Started off with RX-8s then moved to Caterhams. when the Mazda sponsorship ended.

Personally, I always thought you had 3 blue flags, and on the third one you had to move or incur a penalty.

That's F1. Possibly F2 as well and maybe A1GP. Doesn't happen like that in any other motorsports in the world. The blue flag is information, not instruction and it's the passing driver who must execute the pass safely.

 

[Sureboss]

I think the "get out now" attitude with blue flags that currently exists is making it far worse than the situation needs to be.

 

[Fastas]

The current system was brought in because of the lack of respect that the drivers were showing. Typically, team mates or sister teams were deemed to be deliberately blocking or hindering the progress of front running drivers in order to benefit their own team mate or partner team driver.

Unlike other formulae, F1 is as much about the constructors championship as it is the drivers'. Most, if not all of the series listed previously in this thread are single make championships and the 'team' element is not so great as to require such a flag system as formula 1 currently has.

 

[Ardius]

But that doesn't mean you have the responsibility to put yourself in jeopardy for the sake of someone else. Sure, di Grassi could have pulled off the circuit and basically ruin his own race simply so that the leaders could get by. A better solution would have been to keep going through the first sequence of corners and let them through after the third turn.

I never said that, I said "if you are a lap down, you have lost your right to hold up the leaders".
This means, do not clearly block the leaders on purpose. I agree that the backmarkers should not be expected just to vanish, but I don't agree with letting them have free reign to affect the outcome of the race. Its not skillful to catch someone who has been held up by a HRT just because the cars and tracks don't lend themselves to overtaking.

If Kubica was chasing Webber for 1st place tomorrow, with no blue flag rules, and he got held up by a backmarker and lost the race, would this be better?

Di Grassi is a perfect example of how to do it badly. He didn't think, he just threw it to the side and onto the grass. I agree that drivers like him have got the wrong idea, they are still meant to race and they are not expected to avoid leaders like the plague like that. There is also an element of acceptance needed from the top drivers that they will inevitably be held up somewhere. But I think Hamilton had full rights to complain about Di Grassi because it was just idiotic what he did, he should have kept going, following a normal racing line. Instead he performed an unexpected maneuver, which makes it doubly hard for the leaders to react.
As far as I know, Di Grassi's race was already ruined anyway because he doesn't have a big enough fuel tank. Besides, usually lapped cars are not in much of a fight for places, considering most of them are the new teams.

The BBC today were semi-praising Schumacher for going out of his way to avoid blocking, but again, he was moving in unusual places which actually caused greater confusion to the driver behind and slowed them down further. Especially where he was effectively weaving before the hairpin, the Sauber visibly slowed down just to check which way he was going!
The standard way to allow drivers past is to maintain the racing line where possible and simply not to fight the faster car. This aids the faster car in predicting and reacting. If you have to move off the racing line and to an awkward position (like Schumacher and Di Grassi did) then you do not move over, you just continue, even if it momentarily blocks the faster cars, until you have a safer and more predictable spot to allow them to pass.
This is the principle I have always used while racing online, for example, I would never move out of the way on a corner like Dunlop at Suzuka beacuse its just awkward and unpredictable. The best places are the slow exits of corners or on straights, as the driver behind has plenty of time to react and would normally expect this.