Best Car 2008 Series: China - Rule Clarification Needed

[Turbo Lag]

This is my vote:

Buick Park Avenue:

Ah well, it's the only decent car. And it's not even properly Chinese. I vote for that.

 

[Famine]

Nanjing Automotive MG TF:

 

[homeforsummer]

See this is just opening the floodgates for stuff that isn't actually Chinese.

I didn't pick the TF because the Chinese have done absolutely zilch of the development and testing of the car, so to call it a Chinese car is a bit insulting to the hundreds of Brits who worked on it for years. That Buick is the same. It just happens to be built and badged there. And if you include concept cars then you can include virtually anything.

The British car thread is stated that it's only cars you can actually buy. Since you can't buy concept cars, then they should be disallowed.

And if you allow stuff that's built in China, then I choose the BMW 5-series because BMW build small runs of them there to avoid import tax...

See my point?

 

[Joey D]

See this is just opening the floodgates for stuff that isn't actually Chinese.

I didn't pick the TF because the Chinese have done absolutely zilch of the development and testing of the car, so to call it a Chinese car is a bit insulting to the hundreds of Brits who worked on it for years. That Buick is the same. It just happens to be built and badged there. And if you include concept cars then you can include virtually anything.

The British car thread is stated that it's only cars you can actually buy. Since you can't buy concept cars, then they should be disallowed.

And if you allow stuff that's built in China, then I choose the BMW 5-series because BMW build small runs of them there to avoid import tax...

See my point?

I'm still pretty sure all cars sold in China must be built in China per the government. I took a class on Chinese studies and that is the way it used to be but I could be wrong now.

The Buick has been specifically designed for the Chinese market, like all GM cars sold there. Sure they might be bases on X vehicle but the engines have to meet a certain criteria and so does the interior space since the back seats are typically larger then the front.

 

[Danny]

Jiangling Landwind, because it's cheap enough to buy one for someone you don't like.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm still pretty sure all cars sold in China must be built in China per the government. I took a class on Chinese studies and that is the way it used to be but I could be wrong now.

The Buick has been specifically designed for the Chinese market, like all GM cars sold there. Sure they might be bases on X vehicle but the engines have to meet a certain criteria and so does the interior space since the back seats are typically larger then the front.

But it isn't a Chinese car. It's a Buick. Just like me choosing a 5-series BMW. They build them there, they're built for that market, so why shouldn't I be able to include it? Because it isn't Chinese. On the same logic I could have picked a Mitsubishi Lancer, Peugeot 207, Ford Focus...

We should at least try and pick something from actual Chinese manufacturers.

Toronado made a good point above:

For example, based on the reasoning for the Buick being allowed, there is nothing preventing me from nominating the Honda Accord (or, hell, the Saturn Astra) in the Best American car thread. We could end up with essentially the same car being in every single poll, in the case of some GM vehicles (Best American car: Pontiac G8. Best Australian car: Holden Commodore. Best Chinese car: Buick Park Avenue. Best third world car: Chevrolet Lumina. Best British car: Vauxhall VXR8. Best Korean car: Daewoo L4X.).

I think that pretty much sums it up.

 

[slidesquad#1]

The Buick has been specifically designed for the Chinese market, like all GM cars sold there. Sure they might be bases on X vehicle but the engines have to meet a certain criteria and so does the interior space since the back seats are typically larger then the front.

That's BS. The specific design for the car is probably limited to a smaller engine, (though you can get the same Alloytec V6 you can in the Statesman as well) and badging.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/10/buick-reintroduces-the-park-avenue-in-china/

The Park Avenue, like the GM Daewoo L4X introduced last week in Seoul, is a rebadged Holden WM Caprice/Statesman

And with respect to it being "built in China", that's true. With one catch.

It is assembled by GM Shanghai from CKD kits

Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Park_Avenue

So it's Chinese because GM's Chinese division gets to piece it together?

 

[Joey D]

GM vehicles sold in China have to go though a significant redesign process, most of the engineering is done here in America though. I know this because I live in south east Michigan and everyone here knows engineers for one of the "Big" Three.

They are based on an existing car, I said that, but there are design difference for the Chinese market.

Based on your logic though any Vauxhall or Opel is American.

 

[slidesquad#1]

GM vehicles sold in China have to go though a significant redesign process, most of the engineering is done here in America though. I know this because I live in south east Michigan and everyone here knows engineers for one of the "Big" Three.

They are based on an existing car, I said that, but there are design difference for the Chinese market.

Based on your logic though any Vauxhall or Opel is American.

There are always going to be differences in order to make a car suitable for different markets.

Would you be able to list any of the significant redesigns that are made on the Park Avenue?
Because, from what I see, the entire car, including both the engine options, are made in Australia, sent to China in completely knocked down form, and reassembled.

I'm not sure about how the Vauxhall/Opel being American is based on my logic at all. In fact I'm not entirely sure how that relates to my argument at all.
If Opel sold a car in Germany that was exactly the same as a car made in the USA with different badges and slightly firmer suspension, I would have issues with calling it a German car.
I would argue against the "Buick" being called an American car as well, because all the R&D on the car, as well as the production itself, is done in Australia.
If Buick did a full on made for China car, I have no problems with it being nominated. In this case, that is clearly not the case. It's not based on the Statesman. It IS the Statesman.

Edit: Just to clarify, WHAT exactly would have been redisigned for this car that makes it Chinese? It's not the exterior, it's not the engine/drivetrain. Suspension? Interiors? The biggest difference I can see is that the PA and the Statesman seem to have a different centre console.

 

[YSSMAN]

How about a reasonable middle-ground?

 

[Tornado]

Based on your logic though any Vauxhall or Opel is American.

Ironically, it is your logic that says that to be the case. A car rebadged for a different country does not make it a car of that country (for example, the Astra was designed by Opel, built by Opel and sold by Opel. The they started selling these completely German cars as Holdens and Saturns and whatnot). The Park Avenue is designed for (and built in) Australia, then it is given a new badge and shipped over to China in pieces to circumvent laws.
Volkswagen builds cars in Mexico for much the same reason. Does that make the Rabbit a Mexican car while the Golf is German? The Park Avenue is about as much of a Buick as the 9-7X is a Saab, and it is about as Chinese as the Chevy Aveo is American.

 

[Famine]

See this is just opening the floodgates for stuff that isn't actually Chinese.

I didn't pick the TF because the Chinese have done absolutely zilch of the development and testing of the car, so to call it a Chinese car is a bit insulting to the hundreds of Brits who worked on it for years.

People worked on the MGF? Blimey, that comes as news.

When the MG TF was killed back in 2005, it was a British car. It was built by Brits at a British factory owned by a British consortium - and propped up by the British taxpayer. Now it's a Chinese car, built by Chinese at a Chinese factory owned by a Chinese consortium. Some cars are built in Oklahoma and Longbridge, after arriving in flatpack form from Nanjing.

I expect to see its 2 star EuroNCAP performance (the original TF managed 4 stars) shortly, to demonstrate how the new TF has been worked upon by NAG.

 

[Dave A]

I agree that it shouldn't be limited to what cars are built where, rather it should be theo origin of the manufacturer. Ie Noble is not British or south African, it is simply British. Buick is an American manufacturer, BMW is a German manufacturer, Vauxhall is a Brtish Manufacturer, Holden is an Australian manufacturer etc. If you start looking for loopholes on why and how to include X car thats built by Y comapny based somewhere other than China then you're creating a problem.

 

[YSSMAN]

I believe it was decided early that we would honor the home of the badge in this case, making the MG British and the Buick American. The problem is that there is a very clear difference between the Buick of China and the Buick of North America in the same way that we see a very clear difference between the Ford of Europe and the Ford of North America... As such, we let Euro Fords qualify for the British thread.

On a technicality, I'll let both the MG and the Buick slip into the Chinese thread. The Buick is China-only, and that counts for something. The MG is just as "British" as Hong Kong these days, so I'll count that too. Hell, Roewe is Chinese too.

 

[Speedster502]

Is Dacia Chinese?

 

[Jim Prower]

Nope, Romanian. or some other Eastern European country.

 

[Famine]

They're Romanian.

 

[Speedster502]

Nope, Romanian. or some other Eastern European country.

They're Romanian.

Ow. Thats ashame, can't think of any Chinese cars that are fairly good.

 

[Tornado]

Jiangling Landwind, because it's cheap enough to buy one for someone you don't like.

I second this, and state that is the only Chinese car I would probably buy with my own money.

 

[Dave A]

I believe it was decided early that we would honor the home of the badge in this case, making the MG British and the Buick American. The problem is that there is a very clear difference between the Buick of China and the Buick of North America in the same way that we see a very clear difference between the Ford of Europe and the Ford of North America... As such, we let Euro Fords qualify for the British thread.

On a technicality, I'll let both the MG and the Buick slip into the Chinese thread. The Buick is China-only, and that counts for something. The MG is just as "British" as Hong Kong these days, so I'll count that too. Hell, Roewe is Chinese too.

If the Buick is a similar situation to Ford US and Ford Europe and Ford Asia all being run seperately from each other offering seperate production lines and not being answerable to each other then fair enough. However MG is in no way shape or form in the same boat as these.

 

[slidesquad#1]

On a technicality, I'll let both the MG and the Buick slip into the Chinese thread. The Buick is China-only, and that counts for something. The MG is just as "British" as Hong Kong these days, so I'll count that too. Hell, Roewe is Chinese too.

It's your thread, you can run it how you want, but the Buick isn't China only. The only thing solely Chinese market about it (according to the sources I can find anyways) is the badge.

But, just to clarify, according to that reasoning, the Vauxhall VXR8 is eligible for the British thread (It's only available in Britain), the Chevrolet (well, CSV) VXR8 is eleigible in a (hypothetical) Middle Eastern thread etc.

The MG I can understand, it's now owned by the Chinese and built in China. The Buick is an Australian car, built in Australia and simply assembled in China, with an American badge. Just seems like a bit of a farce to me. But yeah, I'm done with arguing.

 

[homeforsummer]

People worked on the MGF? Blimey, that comes as news.

When the MG TF was killed back in 2005, it was a British car. It was built by Brits at a British factory owned by a British consortium - and propped up by the British taxpayer. Now it's a Chinese car, built by Chinese at a Chinese factory owned by a Chinese consortium. Some cars are built in Oklahoma and Longbridge, after arriving in flatpack form from Nanjing.

I expect to see its 2 star EuroNCAP performance (the original TF managed 4 stars) shortly, to demonstrate how the new TF has been worked upon by NAG.

I still disagree that it's a Chinese car. Nanjing have bought all the bits and thought "hmm, we'll make that again". If a British consortium bought all the pieces for the Ford Crown Vic (if they ever stop producing it) and said "hmm, we'll make that again", it wouldn't make it a British car regardless of who owns the rights to make it. It'd still be a big American saloon.

Far as I'm concerned if it hasn't gone through from marketing to conception to production in the country of origin, then it can't be claimed as a car of that country. The only thing Nanjing have contributed to the TF is it's survival, nothing more.

 

[Tornado]

If a British consortium bought all the pieces for the Ford Crown Vic (if they ever stop producing it) and said "hmm, we'll make that again", it wouldn't make it a British car regardless of who owns the rights to make it.

Of course not. Labor strikes would force the company to go bankrupt before they made a single car.

 

[homeforsummer]

Of course not. Labor strikes would force the company to go bankrupt before they made a single car.

How dare you stereotype. I'll have you know the consortium's complete ineptity and financial fraud would stop the project long before labour strikes...

Jokes (/truths) aside, my point still stands.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I'm still pretty sure all cars sold in China must be built in China per the government. I took a class on Chinese studies and that is the way it used to be but I could be wrong now.

The Buick has been specifically designed for the Chinese market, like all GM cars sold there. Sure they might be bases on X vehicle but the engines have to meet a certain criteria and so does the interior space since the back seats are typically larger then the front.

Err, wrong. The Buick was designed for the Aussie market, and it was designed in the Aussie market, and there is nothing different from the Holden to the Buick bar maybe the addition of heated seats or something (can't remeber what it was).

 

[Joey D]

It seems that some members aren't reading what I'm saying, I never said the Buick Park Avenue wasn't based off another vehicle. The car itself takes the Australian designed Commodore and redesigns it to work in the Chinese market. The interior will be different to fit the Chinese market, like other GM vehicles that were sent over there. One of the biggest thing I can see right away is the steering wheel and which side it's on.

I remember a my uncle telling me about how they had to redesign the Blazer for China to accommodate larger rear seat and an engine that complied with Chinese regulations.

If we were to go by the logic that a rebadged vehicle belongs to the country it originated from the Pontiac G8 is Australian despite being reworked for the American market, mainly the steering wheel.

Also if the vehicle isn't redesigned with Chinese market in mind, tell me, where else in the world can you buy a Buick Park Avenue that looks like that? Yes you can buy cars that look very similar such as the Commodore and Lumina, but they aren't Buicks.

As I've said, I am not disagreeing that it isn't based off a car made in Australia but it's been made for the Chinese market, thus a Chinese car.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, lets think of it in the grand scale of things:

How well are the Chinese cars going to do overall?

 

[Tornado]

One of the biggest thing I can see right away is the steering wheel and which side it's on.

Yes. The complete essence of redesigning a car for a new target market: Making sure the steering wheel is on the correct side. Get that right and you have the next Model T on your hands no matter what.

If we were to go by the logic that a rebadged vehicle belongs to the country it originated from the Pontiac G8 is Australian despite being reworked for the American market, mainly the steering wheel.

Either this was the best hidden sarcasm ever uttered or... well, its funny either way.
You seem almost intentionally ignorant of the fact that a rebadged vehicle does belong to the country it originated from. What would you call an Acura NSX? I can guarantee that more was done to that car than was done to the Park Avenue.
I will also use the flawless "steering wheel excuse" shown above to nominate the Nissan GT-R in the best American Car thread. Mark my words on that.

Also if the vehicle isn't redesigned with Chinese market in mind, tell me, where else in the world can you buy a Buick Park Avenue that looks like that? Yes you can buy cars that look very similar such as the Commodore and Lumina, but they aren't Buicks.

You seem blissfully unaware of the irony of that statement, but nevermind.
You know what also wasn't a Buick? The Oldsmobile Bravada. Then they decided to start selling it as one when Oldsmobile went under. I think they called it the "Rainer."
Cadillac made something called the "Catera" that was much the same idea, and Pontiac made something called the "GTO" or some nonsense like that. I've heard some rumblings about a car named "Astra," but I'm pretty sure that those are just rumors.

As I've said, I am not disagreeing that it isn't based off a car made in Australia but it's been made for the Chinese market, thus a Chinese car.

Yes, one need simply look at the car to feel the changes from when it went from this:

To this:

Only a genius of the highest caliber could have been put in charge of the localization, as they are nothing a like at all! Imagine the surprise that people would have upon discovering that they share engines, drivetrains, seats, guages, dash, door panels, and even the steering wheel! But hey, that center console? Totally different. And that fake wood? Wow! And the AIR VENTS!

 

[Joey D]

If we are going to have these threads then more rules on what can be picked needs to be set in place. The Buick Park Avenue is a Chinese car whether you care to admit it or not, it's made by Shanghai GM, thus putting it under the Chinese car category. But if we are solely going on 100% Chinese cars then so be it, I'll be sure to remember that when the American thread comes up and someone mentions anything remotely rebadged or even slightly reworked.

 

[Tornado]

The Buick Park Avenue is a Chinese car whether you care to admit it or not, it's made by Shanghai GM, thus putting it under the Chinese car category.

Suit yourself. The fact that you seem to view where a car is built as the sole descriptor of what country it hails from isn't my problem.

But if we are solely going on 100% Chinese cars then so be it, I'll be sure to remember that when the American thread comes up and someone mentions anything remotely rebadged or even slightly reworked.

You could go right ahead, and I will be right there helping you.