Best Car 2008 Series: China - Rule Clarification Needed

[slidesquad#1]

it's made by Shanghai GM, thus putting it under the Chinese car category.

It's made by bloody Holden! All Shanghai GM are doing is putting it together...They have zero engineering input.

And seriously, steering wheel placement? Counts as a serious redesign? What?

Anyways, to contribute. The Zhonghua Jinjue. Designed by Pininfarina, apparently BMW played a part with the car as well. Looks fairly...handsome?

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

It seems that some members aren't reading what I'm saying, I never said the Buick Park Avenue wasn't based off another vehicle. The car itself takes the Australian designed Commodore and redesigns it to work in the Chinese market. The interior will be different to fit the Chinese market, like other GM vehicles that were sent over there. One of the biggest thing I can see right away is the steering wheel and which side it's on.

I remember a my uncle telling me about how they had to redesign the Blazer for China to accommodate larger rear seat and an engine that complied with Chinese regulations.

If we were to go by the logic that a rebadged vehicle belongs to the country it originated from the Pontiac G8 is Australian despite being reworked for the American market, mainly the steering wheel.

Also if the vehicle isn't redesigned with Chinese market in mind, tell me, where else in the world can you buy a Buick Park Avenue that looks like that? Yes you can buy cars that look very similar such as the Commodore and Lumina, but they aren't Buicks.

As I've said, I am not disagreeing that it isn't based off a car made in Australia but it's been made for the Chinese market, thus a Chinese car.

Apart from the seriously minor differences pointed out by Toronado here, the car is not changed in the slightest from the Holden Caprice. The chassis, the engine, the drivetrain, 95% of the interior is all the same.

Yes. The complete essence of redesigning a car for a new target market: Making sure the steering wheel is on the correct side. Get that right and you have the next Model T on your hands no matter what.


Either this was the best hidden sarcasm ever uttered or... well, its funny either way.
You seem almost intentionally ignorant of the fact that a rebadged vehicle does belong to the country it originated from. What would you call an Acura NSX? I can guarantee that more was done to that car than was done to the Park Avenue.
I will also use the flawless "steering wheel excuse" shown above to nominate the Nissan GT-R in the best American Car thread. Mark my words on that.


You seem blissfully unaware of the irony of that statement, but nevermind.
You know what also wasn't a Buick? The Oldsmobile Bravada. Then they decided to start selling it as one when Oldsmobile went under. I think they called it the "Rainer."
Cadillac made something called the "Catera" that was much the same idea, and Pontiac made something called the "GTO" or some nonsense like that. I've heard some rumblings about a car named "Astra," but I'm pretty sure that those are just rumors.



Yes, one need simply look at the car to feel the changes from when it went from this:

To this:

Only a genius of the highest caliber could have been put in charge of the localization, as they are nothing a like at all! Imagine the surprise that people would have upon discovering that they share engines, drivetrains, seats, guages, dash, door panels, and even the steering wheel! But hey, that center console? Totally different. And that fake wood? Wow! And the AIR VENTS!

Great post, + invisible rep.👍 TBH I'm surprised to see that even the centre console is different.

If we are going to have these threads then more rules on what can be picked needs to be set in place. The Buick Park Avenue is a Chinese car whether you care to admit it or not, it's made by Shanghai GM, thus putting it under the Chinese car category. But if we are solely going on 100% Chinese cars then so be it, I'll be sure to remember that when the American thread comes up and someone mentions anything remotely rebadged or even slightly reworked.

No, it's not a Chinese car whether you like it or not.

It's made by bloody Holden! All Shanghai GM are doing is putting it together...They have zero engineering input.

And seriously, steering wheel placement? Counts as a serious redesign? What?

+1

 

[Famine]

I still disagree that it's a Chinese car. Nanjing have bought all the bits and thought "hmm, we'll make that again". If a British consortium bought all the pieces for the Ford Crown Vic (if they ever stop producing it) and said "hmm, we'll make that again", it wouldn't make it a British car regardless of who owns the rights to make it. It'd still be a big American saloon.

Far as I'm concerned if it hasn't gone through from marketing to conception to production in the country of origin, then it can't be claimed as a car of that country. The only thing Nanjing have contributed to the TF is it's survival, nothing more.

Which somewhat argues against the nomination of the Vauxhall Astra in the GB thread (and massively against the putative nomination of the Saturn Astra in the US thread). But I expect you'd find people who'd say the Crown Vic was British - unless it was really crap.

Nanjing have been working on the car for 18 months - with some of the original dev team from Longbridge. It seems they have solved the HGF issues MGRover never got round to and fitted an EU IV emissions-compliant engine - now called the N-series - bringing the power for the MG TF LE500 down to just 130hp. I can't imagine that this and only this is responsible for the 18-month development period (since the N-series engine was conceptually available in 2005), so we'll just have to wait and see what else they have done. I know the shells are made in China - Nanjing rejected the British-made shells as too-poor quality (and having seen the LandWind crash tests, what the Chinese would class as poor quality scares me).

For now it remains a Chinese-owned car, built in China by a Chinese (state) owned company, shipped in crates to Birmingham and screwed together there for the UK market which, superficially, looks like a former British-owned car, built in Britain by a British owned (state funded) company, with serious alterations underneath.

 

[homeforsummer]

Which somewhat argues against the nomination of the Vauxhall Astra in the GB thread (and massively against the putative nomination of the Saturn Astra in the US thread).

That's fair enough. The Astra is a German car at heart. Much as people would love to think that Vauxhall is British, in reality it's an American owned company making German cars. The closest they got to a British car was the VX220 because it was based on the Elise. I don't know where the Astra was desgined but I expect much of the engineering was done by Opel. At least they build the Vauxhall version in this country otherwise it'd have no claim to being British other than the Vauxhall badges.

But I expect you'd find people who'd say the Crown Vic was British - unless it was really crap.

We have a special name for these people. Morons.

Nanjing have been working on the car for 18 months - with some of the original dev team from Longbridge. It seems they have solved the HGF issues MGRover never got round to and fitted an EU IV emissions-compliant engine - now called the N-series - bringing the power for the MG TF LE500 down to just 130hp. I can't imagine that this and only this is responsible for the 18-month development period

Oh I can. I expect the cars have received as little development in China as they did in the UK, only Nanjing could afford to sit about because they weren't in the financial hole that MGR were. The TF was already a reasonably well developed car given that when it changed from "F" to "TF" there were some large alterations (such as doing away with the Rover hydragas suspension, changing the styling, reworking the engines for more power. If Nanjing have added seriously to this I will be very surprised.

I think on this we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, as far as I'm concerned the TF is not a Chinese car in the same way that Buick isn't and any other Western market that's been subtley redeveloped for the Chinese market isn't. If Nanjing had desgined a completely new sports car and called it the MG TF then it would be a Chinese car, but that isn't what they've done.

 

[Famine]

On a mild tangent, would you class the Roewe 750 as British or Chinese?

It looks massively like the Rover 75 with some MG ZT in there too, but SAIC claim that 85% of the car is new. It's built as LHD for the Chinese market only, in China by Chinese (etc.) but based on an older British design...

How much of the car has to be new before it's a new car? As you said, the MG TF was a new car, yet looked remarkably like (to the point of being hard to tell apart on the road) the MGF. Same with the Rover 200/25/MGZR, Rover 400/45/MGZS and Rover 75/MGZT. And the Lotus Elan and Kia Sports Car. We won't even touch the Toyota Aygo, Citroen C1 and Peugeot 107 which are the other way round (look different, but the same underneath) - or the Seat Alhambra, Ford Galaxy and VW Sharan which are a mixture of the two, and could be variously Spanish/German, American/German or German.


There's a point at which we have to say "This is where a car comes from" - or else everything is German, American or Japanese (save for a few low volume cars). People don't always agree on where that point is... I look forward to the French and German threads, which will both have the Bugatti Veyron

 

[Danny]

Same with the Rover 200/25/MGZR, Rover 400/45/MGZS

Which are essentially mid-nineties Hondas.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

There's a point at which we have to say "This is where a car comes from" - or else everything is German, American or Japanese (save for a few low volume cars).

Or Australian.

 

[Famine]

Which are essentially mid-nineties Hondas.

Well quite. And some of the 200/400 range even had Honda engines.

Or Australian.

If the point for you is the badge, then yes. But Ford Australia are owned by Ford, which is American and Holden is owned by GM which is American. And that's kind of the point - if you follow the money, you'd be hard pressed to find a non-American/German/Japanese/French/Italian volume car-maker. If you don't then you can justify massive leaps of faith - even if you draw the line at the badge, in this case it doesn't help since MG is now a Chinese brand.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

If the point for you is the badge, then yes. But Ford Australia are owned by Ford, which is American and Holden is owned by GM which is American. And that's kind of the point - if you follow the money, you'd be hard pressed to find a non-American/German/Japanese/French/Italian volume car-maker. If you don't then you can justify massive leaps of faith - even if you draw the line at the badge, in this case it doesn't help since MG is now a Chinese brand.

Ah, see I never get that reasoning. Yes, some profits would go to GM in America from Holden, but all the Aussies doing their job still get paid some how. Holden still spends development money from somewhere. The way I see it? The Alloytec V6 for Commodores is assembled in Australia, the Commodore is designed and built in Australia. The Aussies are getting paid, the badge is Australian, therefore by that reasoning the Holden Commodore is Australian. It's the same with the Ford Falcon (engine, chassis and design 100% unique to Australia). The rest of their line-ups though are not Australian, (Focus, Astra, Ranger, Colorado, Barina, Fiesta etc).

 

[homeforsummer]

Roewe 750

Chinese - basically a glorified copy of the 75, but just happens to use some of the original tooling (based on the long wheelbase version I think). 85% new is enough to qualify, unless it's one of those things where the 85% of bits they've changed have been 70% new grille and 15% new wheels.

And to be fair the Rover 75 was quite heavily German anyway...

MG TF

British - I'd be quite surprised if more than 15% of this has been changed.

Which are essentially mid-nineties Hondas.

I was reading about the 400 recently. It was actually co-developed, not just a re-styled Honda. Unfortunately, the Honda design team had their own ideas of what they wanted and did it so differently from what Rover wanted that they had no choice but to work with what they had. Rover were pretty cheesed off but they'd invested heavily in it so in the end had to re-style it as best they could and fit it with the best engines they could. Only one Honda unit was used in the car (a 1.6, reserved only for the automatic model) and all the rest were Rover K-series.

The suspension was also tuned completely differently (though not necessarily for the better). The saloon version was all their own work too, even though that shape of Civic was available as a saloon in some markets Rover decided to make their own, and it was all the better for it.

I'm much more comfortable calling the 400 a British car than I would be calling the TF, or even the Roewe 750, a Chinese one. And certainly the MG ZS, as a team of British engineers and stylists (including Peter Stevens) re-worked the 45 heavily for this car.#

But I digress, as I'm going off topic.

MG TF - British, owned by Chinese company
Roewe 570 - Chinese (just)
Rover 400/45/MG ZS - British, co-developed with Japan
Honda Civic - Japanese

 

[Jondot]

Just to throw some more petrol on the bonfire, how about this?

The Citroen C-Triomphe. And before you shout "FRENCH" at me, it's designed specifically for China, is built there and is a joint venture between Citroen and a Chinese manufacturer called Dongfeng.

...but it's still basically a C4 with a boot on the back.

Just throwing it out there.

 

[Dave A]

I think we should keep it simple, the origin of the badge, if it's an MG badge then it's British if it's a Tickford badge it's Australian if it's a SEAT badge it's Spanish and a Mazda badge it's Japanese. It's the easiest way to keep problems out. Keep it simple, keep to the badge regadless of what the car is based on (ie Vauxhall is Brtish, Saturn is American and Opel is German) otherwise you will create 1001 complications and everyone will dissagree with each other. That's my view anyway.

 

[forza2.0]

I think we should keep it simple, the origin of the badge, if it's an MG badge then it's British if it's a Tickford badge it's Australian if it's a SEAT badge it's Spanish and a Mazda badge it's Japanese. It's the easiest way to keep problems out. Keep it simle, keep to the badge regadless of what the car is based on (ie Vauxhall is Brtish, Saturn is American and Opel is German) otherwise you will create 1001 complications and everyone will dissagree with each other. That's my view anyway.

I agree.

The Citroen C-Triomphe. And before you shout "FRENCH" at me, it's designed specifically for China, is built there and is a joint venture between Citroen and a Chinese manufacturer called Dongfeng.

...but it's still basically a C4 with a boot on the back.

Just throwing it out there.

lol some bmws and audis are chinese then as they have china only models.

 

[YSSMAN]

There's a point at which we have to say "This is where a car comes from" - or else everything is German, American or Japanese (save for a few low volume cars). People don't always agree on where that point is... I look forward to the French and German threads, which will both have the Bugatti Veyron

I attempted to sort it out beforehand, and the origional intent was to honor the home place of the badge. But, we did have to make an exception for Ford Europe which is (at least in my opinion) British, not American. With that declaration, it creates a similar problem for Buick of China, in which none of their cars have anything in common with Buick of North America.

I'm willing to let the Buick and MG slide in because they are fairly unique to the market, but if we can come to a consensus on whether or not to call them 'Chinese' or not... I will be happy to let it go either way.

(Also, we can extend this discussion a bit before putting it to a vote)

 

[homeforsummer]

I think we should keep it simple, the origin of the badge, if it's an MG badge then it's British if it's a Tickford badge it's Australian if it's a SEAT badge it's Spanish and a Mazda badge it's Japanese. It's the easiest way to keep problems out. Keep it simple, keep to the badge regadless of what the car is based on (ie Vauxhall is Brtish, Saturn is American and Opel is German) otherwise you will create 1001 complications and everyone will dissagree with each other. That's my view anyway.

+1, no confusions with that. Well, not unless people want to be a pain in the butt.

I'm willing to let the Buick and MG slide in because they are fairly unique to the market, but if we can come to a consensus on whether or not to call them 'Chinese' or not... I will be happy to let it go either way.

As Dave mentioned above, if it's not got a Chinese badge then it shouldn't be included. Neither Buick nor MG should be in the vote in my opinion. There are dozens of Chinese marques to choose from, I posted two links on the first page to cars and lists of manufacturers. I don't see why the waters should be muddied by people choosing cars from elsewhere that just happen to be built in China.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm happy to keep it that way if that's the way everyone wants to go, however, I'm unsure if that qualifies the Buick in the American thread... Nevertheless, no big deal. I do want to hear from more people if they think otherwise, and just as much, if they would like to cast a vote for a different car.

 

[Joey D]

I think we should keep it simple, the origin of the badge, if it's an MG badge then it's British if it's a Tickford badge it's Australian if it's a SEAT badge it's Spanish and a Mazda badge it's Japanese. It's the easiest way to keep problems out. Keep it simple, keep to the badge regadless of what the car is based on (ie Vauxhall is Brtish, Saturn is American and Opel is German) otherwise you will create 1001 complications and everyone will dissagree with each other. That's my view anyway.

That seems fair to me.

 

[TheCracker]

I think we should keep it simple, the origin of the badge, if it's an MG badge then it's British if it's a Tickford badge it's Australian if it's a SEAT badge it's Spanish and a Mazda badge it's Japanese. It's the easiest way to keep problems out. Keep it simple, keep to the badge regadless of what the car is based on (ie Vauxhall is Brtish, Saturn is American and Opel is German) otherwise you will create 1001 complications and everyone will dissagree with each other. That's my view anyway.

Tickford is British!!!

 

[Famine]

I think we should keep it simple, the origin of the badge, if it's an MG badge then it's British if it's a Tickford badge it's Australian if it's a SEAT badge it's Spanish and a Mazda badge it's Japanese. It's the easiest way to keep problems out. Keep it simple, keep to the badge regadless of what the car is based on (ie Vauxhall is Brtish, Saturn is American and Opel is German) otherwise you will create 1001 complications and everyone will dissagree with each other. That's my view anyway.

And a Ford badge is American. Except it isn't:

But, we did have to make an exception for Ford Europe which is (at least in my opinion) British, not American.

The Ford Europe stable (which I would say is German if forced to state a nation) is almost wholly different to the Ford US stable. And we won't even go into in the Ford Australia line-up.

If we limit it to what badge is stuck to the nose, the US category may be won by a car they don't even get and the Australian category will be won by a Holden.

 

[Car-less]

MG TF

Some cars are built in Oklahoma and Longbridge, after arriving in flatpack form from Nanjing.

Original design = British
Rights (now) owned by = China
Manufactured in = China
Financed by = China
Assembled by = Various

As much as I hate to say it, China wins.

Can someone do a similar analysis of the Holden/Buick?

Well, lets think of it in the grand scale of things:

How well are the Chinese cars going to do overall?

I doubt they will get past the first round of voting, but it's still important to work these issues out as they will likely crop up for other countries in this increasingly globalised world.

 

[TheCracker]

At the end of the day, if the MG TF is voted the best of 'anything' i'd be amazed.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Original design = British
Rights (now) owned by = China
Manufactured in = China
Financed by = China
Assembled by = Various

As much as I hate to say it, China wins.

Can someone do a similar analysis of the Holden/Buick?

?
Holden? Yes sir!

Original Design= Australia
Rights owned by= Australia
Manufactured in= Australia
Financed by= Australia
Assembled by= Various

 

[Famine]

At the end of the day, if the MG TF is voted the best of 'anything' i'd be amazed.

In any other company than this:

I'd agree.

?
Holden? Yes sir!

Original Design= Australia
Rights owned by= Australia
Manufactured in= Australia
Financed by= Australia
Assembled by= Various

Would it not be fair to say that the rights to Holden's vehicles, and the finance behind them, comes from GM and, thus, the USA? It'd still be 2:2, with Australia getting the casting vote because of the badge origin and the fact that the assemblage is entirely within Australia...

 

[TheCracker]

Ouch!

A bottle of T-cut, that'll buff out.

 

[Joey D]

?
Holden? Yes sir!

Original Design= Australia
Rights owned by= Australia
Manufactured in= Australia
Financed by= Australia
Assembled by= Various

Uhhhh

Design: Australia
Rights: China
Manufactured in: Various (no car uses 100% one countries parts, there is probably something Japanese on the car)
Financed by: China
Assembled in: China

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Uhhhh

Design: Australia
Rights: China Wrong, what made you think that?
Manufactured in: Various (no car uses 100% one countries parts, there is probably something Japanese on the car) Manufactured is parts built or engineered?
Financed by: China Wrong
Assembled in: China Wrong, well sort of. The engine is built in Oz, as is the parts, but then shipped out as a kit for China. Making it Various like I stated.

Wow, you were way off.

 

[Famine]

I suspect he was doing the Buick.

So to speak.

 

[homeforsummer]

In any other company than this:

*CRUNCH*

*OOF*

I'd agree.

Apparently not that brilliant in frontal impact either, it gets it's 4 stars from reasonable side protection and good safety equipment. I'd rather have a crash in one but then I'd rather not crash at all, thanks!

I think the important thing to consider is whether you would really want to drive your nice shiny sports car around Beijing, or on the unsurfaced back roads in much of the rest of China, knowing that within a few hours you'd have scratches from bicycles down the side of it and dents from being hit from all angles

In that situation I'd rather choose something already a little shoddy, but worthy nonetheless, like a big pickup or the well designed FAW Vita that I chose on page one 👍 Knowing what a different market China is, the "Best car from China" isn't necessarily the obvious one.

 

[Joey D]

Wow, you were way off.

No.

The car maybe designed in Australia, I'll give it that. But GM Shanghai owns the rights to the Buick Park Avenue, the car is also financed by them because China buys the kits from Holden (why would they get them for free?). The car is 100% in China because a bunch of parts are shipped over and screwed together...how on Earth is that wrong?

As for manufacturing, I bet a lot of parts are actually made in China, Taiwan, or Korea, like a lot of GM vehicles. Manufacturing of parts doesn't really mean much since the whole manufacturing industry is very global now.

Go by the criteria Car-Less laid out the Buick is Chinese even though it wasn't designed there but rather for there.

I suspect he was doing the Buick.

So to speak.

I wish I was doing a Buick, they are so hot....errrr wait.

 

[niky]

If we limit it to what badge is stuck to the nose, the US category may be won by a car they don't even get and the Australian category will be won by a Holden.

👍 Same opinion. Because if we limit this to Chinese Domestic Market badges, you'll get a ton of copycar cars with no redeeming value, even compared to the original item.

Unlike most of you, I've actually driven Chinese cars... and I haven't driven one yet that I'd take over a ten-year old, secondhand Nissan Sentra. Not a single damned one.

Mind you... cars like the Chery QQ or Tiggo (Daewoo Matiz and Toyota Rav4 wannabe, respectively) aren't particularly very good (especially considering the propensity of QQ shocks to go bad in less than 10,000 kilometers), but compared to some of the stuff coming out of China, they're almost Toyota-like in their refinement.

My latest dip into Chinese car-ness:




Check out the dashboard lifted from an electric kiddie cart... I can't believe some idiots in the US pay $11-16k for this thing... (this is the Zap Xebra in the US)... no matter how much Zap gussifies the car up... (and apparently it's not: http://obairlann.net/reaper/zap-xebra/ )

This is one category where it's impossible to vote for anything except as an exercise in comic relief.