Best Drivers, Cars, and Teams to Never Win Le Mans

  • Thread starter Thread starter JohnBM01
  • 44 comments
  • 4,636 views
JohnBM01

JohnBM01

21 years!
In Memoriam
Messages
26,911
United States
Houston, Texas, USA
Messages
JMarine25
GTPlanet, winning Le Mans is a great acheivement as you shown the other major car companies and racing constructors who's boss. A number of budding talents and proven pros taken on the Le Mans challenge. This is just another thread I've released in honor of the upcoming Le Mans endurance. You are free to talk about some of the best driving talent to never win this event. I initially had this thread only about best drivers to never win Le Mans, but I decided to include cars and teams to this thread. Now remember that this is about some of the best drivers, cars, and teams to never win Le Mans. The requirement for discussion is that the race car, driver, or team must have had at least one start in the 70+ years of the event. I'm asking you to go old school if you have to. I'll probably expect to read something about older GTP car teams to not win.

Before I begin, here are some websites with information on drivers and teams to win the 24 Hours of Le Mans, just so you'll know what drivers, teams, and manufacturers won the event outright:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Le_Mans_24h_winners
http://www.wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/lemans/nf_lemans_home.html (recommended)

I'll go with Speed Channel commentators here. Speed F1 commentator David Hobbs had a handful of starts at Le Mans, but to my knowledge, no outright wins (maybe not even in class). I have great respect for David Hobbs as an F1 analyst. Knows what he's talking about and is a great individual. He was even featured on his own show, "Legends of Motorsport" (a show I wished would come back to Speed Channel with more classic road racing and rally moments). Another man I respect is Alain de Cadenet. He was once host of a few episodes of (then) Speedvision's "Legends of Motorsport." He's also the host of the wonderful "Victory by Design" series as well as one of the commentators of last year's Le Mans endurance. But he never won the French classic. I respect both Hobbs and de Cadenet because they are great individuals on television.

I'd want to say that Toyota probably could have and should have won Le Mans in 1999. They had a wickedly-powerful and capable GT-One which shredded a tire. They would have joined Mazda as the only other Japanese manufacturer to win Le Mans. But since 1991, a Japanese manufacturer has never won. Toyota was deceptively close. Note I said Japanese MANUFACTURER and not team. That's because Audi Japan's Team Goh won outright in 2004 (kind of surprised that car wasn't be in GT4).

Teams that never won Le Mans. Drivers that never won Le Mans. Cars that never won Le Mans. You're up now. If any of my information is false, set me straight. My premise is on cars that never won Le Mans either in class or outright. Get crackin'.
 
"kind of surprised that car wasn't in GT4"

Perhaps the Enthusia logos didn't please PD?

I'd agree with Toyota. I'm not saying I would have been going for them at the time, but I feel that they should have won that race. I'd have to think about his question more, since Toyota is the only one that really comes to mind at the moment.
 
Driver: Easy one, Bob Wollek. Guy won Daytona, Sebring and just about everything else several times over, but never could pull of the one he wanted most, Le Mans. Came close in 1995 and 1998 (I remember him almost crying on the podium after finishing second to the teammate Porsche GT1-98.), both times just a lap off of victory after small mistakes by his teammates during the race. Broke my heart to see him in a Porsche GT3 car after the factory pulled out and broke my heart again to hear he'd been killed riding his bike to the track at Sebring.

Team/Manufacturer: Another easy one, Toyota 1998-1999. Came to Le Mans with three cars, nine great drivers, tons of personnel, their own meteorological department and both times came up just short. Can't say I was disappointed with the result, as they seemed to be the Audi of their day. And since they were just using it as a stepping stone to F1, I can't say I'm at all disappointed that they didn't win.

Runner-up: Nissan in the late 80s-early 90s. Brought FIVE cars to Le Mans in 1990, put one car on pole, had several of their cars lead the race at one point and just couldn't do the deed. I would like to see their Renault overlords allow them to make a comeback with a LMP1 effort (or even a GT2 effort with the 350Z/new Skyline GT-R.)
 
Best Driver - Sorry to Bob Wolleck, as he's one of the most respectable Porsche drivers to my memory, but it's Mario Andretti who takes this prize. The 24 Hours of Le Mans is the one feather missing from the cap of America's Greatest Living Driver.

Best Car - It's no Toyota, that's for damn sure. That honor goes to that incredible Dallara designed WSC beauty; the Ferrari 333SP! Seriously, the car was top line racing material all the way up until Risi retired their's in 2002 (car even got 6th onto the grid at Daytona). It won at Spa, won at Sebring, won at Daytona, won at Seca, at the 'Ring, at Donington, at Zolder, at practically EVERY COURSE in the history of LMP and WSC competition EXCEPT LE MANS.
 
Dyson racing have got to top my list. My heart doesn't sink when Nissan or Toyota miss out. It's not that I'm not fans of the company, and sure I feel bad for the drivers. Just not seeing Dyson have success hurts a little because there is something... about them. Rob Dyson puts his heart and sole into Sports Car racing. If I may refer back to the 2001 issue of Sebring's program. "It's a matter of 56.6 seconds." Racing is just a matter of seconds.

m.piedgros
 
I remember when Honda entered 2 NSXs to try and take the class win, but failed very badly.

Both had their engines die out, the 1st only a couple hours into it. I also remember Nissan entering a R33 Skyline. I don't think that fared to well.
 
The Kunimitsu NSX's, right? The number 11 NSX LM Prototype in GT4 is a "tribute" in a way to the Kunimitsu NSX's.

m.piedgros
 
*McLaren*
I remember when Honda entered 2 NSXs to try and take the class win, but failed very badly.

Both had their engines die out, the 1st only a couple hours into it. I also remember Nissan entering a R33 Skyline. I don't think that fared to well.
Click to expand...

One of the NSXs actually finished 1st in the GT2 class and 8th overall. Not bad at all.

As far as the best car to never win Le Mans has to be Toyota GT-One driven by Tsuchiya, Katayama, Suzuki. I watched that race on TV and when I seen the tire blow out close to the end of the race was just sad to see. Tsuchiya was driving at the time of the blow out at the end of the race but he kept the car on track with no accident........man he's good. Toyota lost by 1 lap to the BMW V12 LMR.
 
imsa77
One of the NSXs actually finished 1st in the GT2 class and 8th overall. Not bad at all.

As far as the best car to never win Le Mans has to be Toyota GT-One driven by Tsuchiya, Katayama, Suzuki. I watched that race on TV and when I seen the tire blow out close to the end of the race was just sad to see. Tsuchiya was driving at the time of the blow out at the end of the race but he kept the car on track with no accident........man he's good. Toyota lost by 1 lap to the BMW V12 LMR.
Click to expand...
Really? Hmm, I guess that accounts for something for Japan.

Didn't know that, thanks.👍
 
I,m shocked no British LeMans cars have won LeMans of late.
 
*McLaren*
Really? Hmm, I guess that accounts for something for Japan.

Didn't know that, thanks.👍
Click to expand...

The Japanese haven't had the best of luck at Le Mans. Mazda 787B has won overall but that is the only Japanese car make to do so. I'm a Japanese car fanatic so this year my hopes are for the Courage Competition Mugen powered car for an overall win.......that is a tall order but none the less GO MUGEN!!!!!
 
Well TVR, I'm guessing you're not counting the Bentley Speed 8 (I wouldn't either, freaking Audi in drag) so I'll remind you to turn back the clock to 1990, the year of the last TWR Silk Cut Jaguar victory.

Le_Mans-1990-06-17-003.jpg


And here it is, the 1990 Le Mans winning Jaguar XJR-12. It's evolved siblings were 2nd, 3rd, and 4th to the 787B in 1991.
 
Layla's Keeper
(I wouldn't either, freaking Audi in drag)
Click to expand...
Not in the least, but I understand where your coming from.
Best Driver-Mario Andretti: He's entered the race, what, 40 times? He's won pretty much everything else, but every time he enters Le Mans who gets 2nd (like in '95), 3rd (like in '83) or is winning and his car breaks near the end (every other time).
Best Car-Panoz LMP-1: As much as I love the McLaren F1 GT-R Longail, Ferrari F40 LM and Ferrari 333SP, they didn't do a complete 180 like Panoz did. After overcoming the disastrous stint with the Esperante GTR-1, Panoz switch to the looser LMP rules format. While they were never in the running due to the newly found storm of the Audi's, the still managed to make the FR design in an LMP car work good enough to win races, which earned my respect.
Best Team-Toyota '99: They got so close, and to be knocked out by a tire cutting down while passing the brother of the car that would beat you must have truly sucked.
 
They need to bring back the Panoz LMPs. It dissappoints me that they disappeared from the series.

I remember in 2001, at Texas Motor Speed during the last ALMS race there, they had the #50 LMP which was amazing. Really gave the Audi a run until it had engine failure.:indiff:
 
*McLaren*
They need to bring back the Panoz LMPs. It dissappoints me that they disappeared from the series.

I remember in 2001, at Texas Motor Speed during the last ALMS race there, they had the #50 LMP which was amazing. Really gave the Audi a run until it had engine failure.:indiff:
Click to expand...

The Panoz did give the Audi R8 a run for its money in a few races. The Panoz just had brute horsepower on its side but the Audi was more nimble through the corners and the Audi is reliable that's for sure. I guess Panoz has their sights set on the GT class now with their Panoz Esparante GTLM which isn't a bad idea. I like the look of their new car. GT class seems easier to compete instead of trying to win against the Audi freight train. The GTLM showed it's guns this year by winning Sebring.
 
imsa77
The Panoz did give the Audi R8 a run for its money in a few races. The Panoz just had brute horsepower on its side but the Audi was more nimble through the corners and the Audi is reliable that's for sure. I guess Panoz has their sights set on the GT class now with their Panoz Esparante GTLM which isn't a bad idea. I like the look of their new car. GT class seems easier to compete instead of trying to win against the Audi freight train. The GTLM showed it's guns this year by winning Sebring.
Click to expand...

First to you IMSA. The Esperante GTLM development is out of Panoz's hands. Canadian firm Multimatic Motorsports are doing 100% of the work. I've read some articles in some very well linked magazines that Panoz may be developing an LM P2 alongside their new ChampCar and IRL programs. The IRL program is currently the only official racing program they are involved in. Don Panoz's son, who I believe shares the name Don, works on designing all Panoz road cars and is in on most race cars to. Personally I think it would be great to see a Panoz back in prototype. With the emergance of the Penske Porsches it is now apparent that the little brothers of P1 can run with the best of 'em. I don't know off the top of my head how much different current rules in P2 and P1 are compared to P900 v. P675 where Dyson got an overall win in 675 over the Audi's and seemed to always challenge. To me, at least from the first races of the LM P1 LM P2 format the P2 guys had nothing on the big Prototypes. (hense the "Dysonization" of the MG Lola's to put them into P1, i.e. where the sponsors wanted them to be... winning or darn near there) So to me, with Porsche out there BEATING the R8 in it's earliest contests; that is amaising but, how will it compete when the new Dyson AER gets sorted out and the R10 gets rolling full time? And what about Le Mans '07? With competition from P1 hybrids such as the Courage LC70's, Creation Autosportif cars, Zytek creations etc. etc. etc., how will the Porsches do then? That will give me an idea of how amaising those Stuttgart natives are. So, back to Panoz, if they can work out an engine deal they could get in (Unless any of the immediate following is accurate.) What do you guys know about the ACO banning "hybrids"? Does that mean Courage and other sole chassis makers are gonna have to start developing their own engines? Does that mean that AER [insert another sole engine manufacturer here] are gonna have to start developing chassis and bodies? Now to McLaren's comments, Don Panoz owns a number of tracks that ALMS run, including Sebring, Road Atlanta and Mosport (That may even be it. I'm not sure.) Dr. Don Panoz is also considered the father of the series.

m.piedgros

P.S. Has anyone heard about the possible creation of LM P3? As I understand it would be much like FIA GT3, get amateurs with money in light, nimble, fairly powered open prototypes and run them in "Cups" all over the world with the possibility of running a World Championship... have y'all heard anything?
 
When they say "hybrids", m.piedgros, they're talking about chassis that were originally built to the outgoing LMP900/LMP675 rules, but have had their aerodynamic package updated to the new LMP1/2 rules.

An excellent set of examples are the Nasamax and the ProTran, two current LMP1's who're heavily revised examples of the old Reynard 2KQ.

Also, ALMS has an ersatz "P3" class that runs on ALMS weekends, the IMSA Lites. http://www.imsa-lites.com/

The class mostly contains Radicals, Van Diemens, Wests, and Elans. You know, the usual motorcycle powered mini-sports prototype stuff.
 
Layla's Keeper
Well TVR, I'm guessing you're not counting the Bentley Speed 8 (I wouldn't either, freaking Audi in drag) so I'll remind you to turn back the clock to 1990, the year of the last TWR Silk Cut Jaguar victory.

Le_Mans-1990-06-17-003.jpg


And here it is, the 1990 Le Mans winning Jaguar XJR-12. It's evolved siblings were 2nd, 3rd, and 4th to the 787B in 1991.
Click to expand...
I believe there is also the 88' winning XJR-9(also a Silk cut Jaguar,which the exact winning car in GT4)which count as another british victory.
 
A quick note on British victories... keep in mind. Bentley won the event five times in the first ten years of the Le Mans endurance. Bentley is about as British as you can get.

[UPDATE]
As much as I thrown this stat around, I messed up here. I was looking back at all the past posts in this thread until I noticed this stat was wrong about "five times in the first five years." It was "five times in the first ten years." My bad.
 
I knew of the IMSA Lites, are they really LM P3 rules? I'd be interested to see a world championship with those cars. (Kinda like the GT Lights Championship from ToCA Race Driver 2, anyone remember?)

m.piedgros

P.S. Thanks for the help, Layla's Keeper.
 
m.piedgros
I knew of the IMSA Lites, are they really LM P3 rules? I'd be interested to see a world championship with those cars. (Kinda like the GT Lights Championship from ToCA Race Driver 2, anyone remember?)

m.piedgros

P.S. Thanks for the help, Layla's Keeper.
Click to expand...

I've yet to see the IMSA Lites race. I see they are scheduled to race on the Petit Le Mans weekend so I'm pretty excited about that.

http://www.imsa-lites.com/
 
Agreeing with you is kind of iffy, Layla's Keeper, but I do agree that the Ferrari 333SP was a wonderful car to never win. I agree with you fully. That's my favorite race car of all-time. Would have been nice to see just about any 333SP win it all. My favorite is the Momo Ferrari by Doran Enterprises. But I do think some hometown flavor would have been nice. In fact, it's been about 10 years since a Houston boy was part of the winning team. And I'm talking about Davy Jones back in 1996.

I also agree that Mario Andretti probably could have won this event. Mario Andretti is a Hall of Fame racer, no doubt about it. And if he isn't in a Hall of Fame, he should be. I got MASSIVE respect for Mario Andretti. But it was nice to see him at the 2000 Le Mans event. My eyes still sort of light up when I see him in the opening movie to "Le Mans 24 Hours."

People wanted LMP2 to be gone, but look at it. It's ultra competitive. They are MUCH lighter than LMP1's, and maybe not as much power. But they still remain a less-costly LMP formula. I liked the idea of LMP2. And recently, Acura is going to stage their own LMP2 campaign soon. LMP3 would be pretty interesting, but this would probably clutter up the track some more. My best guess is that this hypothetical LMP3 would be even lighter, yet less powerful. I sort of like the current formula as it is.

By the way, Global GT Lights is a VERY fun racing series. But I think Palmer Jaguar JP1 racing prototypes are slightly more fun. Trust me. Play ToCA Race Driver 3 up to that point. Great fun.

Discussion continues with your next reply!
 
JohnBM01
By the way, Global GT Lights is a VERY fun racing series. But I think Palmer Jaguar JP1 racing prototypes are slightly more fun. Trust me. Play ToCA Race Driver 3 up to that point. Great fun.

Discussion continues with your next reply!
Click to expand...


I'm gonna get ToCA 3 in July or late June. My dad wants excellent marks, and that I have achieved. Every day I'm on Code Master's website playing the mini game. I JUST CAN'T WAIT!!!

Sorry for the off-topic response.

m.piedgros
 
JohnBM01
People wanted LMP2 to be gone, but look at it. It's ultra competitive. They are MUCH lighter than LMP1's, and maybe not as much power. But they still remain a less-costly LMP formula. I liked the idea of LMP2.
Click to expand...
the only problem I have with LMP1 and LMP2 is that now prototypes have be higher off the ground. I really don't like it.
 
Even with the new 2006 ACO rules the cars are just seeming just as fast as ever. They seem to be able to read between the lines on ACO rules and still make cars just as fast.
 
[Smacks head] LK, you are totally right. Mario Andretti. Best driver never to have won Le Mans hands-down. I have tremendous respect for Wollek, but I can't believe I forgot about Mario.

Also, I'd have to add two names to the list of great drivers who never won Le Mans. Juan Manuel Fangio and Stirling Moss. They should have won it in 1955, but we all know what happened.

And LK, thanks for the shot of the Jaguar. That's one marque that needs to come back to sports car racing. Their excursion into F1 (plus Ford's mismanagement) tarnished the image of Jaguar. I say they should find Tom Walkinshaw and Gordon Murray and come back to Le Mans with a pair of British Racing Green LMP1 entries. Mmmmmmmm...... :)
 
imsa77
Even with the new 2006 ACO rules the cars are just seeming just as fast as ever. They seem to be able to read between the lines on ACO rules and still make cars just as fast.
Click to expand...
good point. I have to admit they still seem fast despite the rules change, but still they don't look right.
 
Mulsanne
And LK, thanks for the shot of the Jaguar. That's one marque that needs to come back to sports car racing. Their excursion into F1 (plus Ford's mismanagement) tarnished the image of Jaguar. I say they should find Tom Walkinshaw and Gordon Murray and come back to Le Mans with a pair of British Racing Green LMP1 entries. Mmmmmmmm...... :)
Click to expand...
I'm not sure, but I beleive TWR is out of buisiness as of 2002 and owned by Holden (?), so no TWR Jaguars for us. A factory backed effort with it's own R&D could be possible though, but then again, Ford hasn't let two competing marques enter Le Mans before, so I doubt they will now, regardless of what class the cars are in.
 

Latest Posts

Back