Blu-Ray = Betamax? Maybe not...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jedi2016
  • 60 comments
  • 3,432 views
According to US polls, Blu-ray is prefered over any other future HD video format.

A new poll suggests that as the battle between Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD heats up, consumers overwhelmingly prefer Blu-ray Disc as their format of choice. In the poll, conducted by Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates, a nationally recognized strategic polling firm, consumers were given a side-by-side comparison of the two formats. Out of the 1200 consumers surveyed 58% preferred Blu-ray Disc, 26% were undecided and only 16% preferred HD-DVD. Of those consumers who indicated that they are extremely interested in purchasing the next-generation format, 66% favored Blu-ray, 19% were undecided and only 15% preferred HD-DVD. Among the key reasons consumers preferred Blu-ray were the ability to play the discs in more CE devices, personal computers and gaming consoles, backward compatibility with current DVD media, disc capacity and the ability to record large amounts of high-definition or standard definition video and data.

Find the rest of the article at http://www.blu-ray.com/
 
It is certainly true that the first batch of PS3 games probably will not be on Blu-Ray media (though it'd be nice if they were). But, as said before, Blu-Ray looks the more future proof and with the 360 without HD DVD (though MS and Toshiba may make a deal about that) it is a very good incentive to get a PS3, even if it does cost $400 (£499).
 
$400 isn't £499, if it goes on sale in the US for $400 it will be around £350-£400 over here, still more expansive than in America but they won't double the cost, they'll keep the number of £'s equal or lower than the number of $'s.
 
I was really hoping to see a move from mpeg-2 to something higher. Yuck, what a nasty compression scheme! If you watch animated shows closely on digital cable or satellite, you'll see some ugly artifacts, tho satellite seems to have higher bandwidth and is a bit less ugly. Just watch a scene that's dark or with lots of rain, and you'll see ghosting and pixellization out the yang. Boo.

Oh well, if they can increase the definition properly so the compression is invisible, I'll be fine with it, but right now I believe to get decent quality, you have to fix every frame by hand. And that's just ignorant. But with mpeg-2 decoder chips dirt cheap, it may take a while yet to get out of that mushy algorithm to something better.

Part of it is the public's fault, since they'll accept nasty sounding mp3s and watch badly mastered movies. We have to demand the best from these companies.

And Sony most definitely is going to push Blu-Ray on the market, come what may. Have you noticed that you can still buy MiniDiscs at Best Buy and literally everywhere still, even though the market has mostly turned its nose up at what is actually a pretty nice format?

Blu-Ray is coming, people, don't worry. I'll have a drive in my PC when they become available, and a PS3 come... spring?? Pleeease? :sly:
 
I wouldn't worry about compression on the discs. Even HD television broadcasts are heavily compressed, in order to get it streaming over the cable lines. It's the same as the difference between a downloadable Quicktime file and a streaming RealMedia file.

Add to that the fact that Blu-Ray can use extra space (i.e. less compression) compared to HD-DVD, and you'll have a winner. I've heard rumors (unconfirmed) that early image-quality comparisons between the two formats have shown a VERY noticable difference, with Blu-Ray clearly being the better.
 
Well as of now from reading articles and reading interviews with sony ps developers it doesnt sounds like PS3 will use Blu Ray so is Sony developing it for other usage such as music and computer use?
 
Blu-Ray is first and foremost a movie format. If it wins against HD-DVD, it'll replace DVDs as the primary distribution method for home video.

I'm not sure what articles you've been reading, but developers WILL use Blu-Ray. Maybe not at launch, but the instant the games start getting about 9GB in size (which isn't that far off), you'll see more and more games on Blu-Ray.
 
blu-ray will be the ps2's DVD-ROM of ps3. and DVD-ROM will be ps3's CD. comprende? same goes for x360, save HD-DVD instead of Blu-ray.

Developers will be using blu-ray, of course. it's the cheapest price for the storage you get.
 
They'll use Blu-Ray when they need to (i.e. games that are larger than a DVD can hold), or if the drive ends up 4x or faster, then they can utilize it's higher data transfer rate.

For the purposes of gaming, that's really the only difference there is. The disc is just a storage medium, nothing more. Whether it's on DVD or Blu-Ray makes absolutely no difference in terms of gameplay. Which is why most developers probably view it as a non-issue at the moment. Which is why they don't mention it.. they don't really care.
 
Looks like Twentieth Century is coming out with Blu-ray discs. I also like what they said.

Twentieth Century Fox, a member of the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) since October 2004, announced today that it will release content on the new high definition Blu-ray Disc format through its subsidiary Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment. "Blu-ray is a superior high definition technology that is a full step forward in the evolution of consumer packaged media," added Mike Dunn, President Worldwide, Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment. "For consumers, the release of our films on Blu-ray will provide in-home entertainment beyond anything they have imagined. On the business side, the advanced functionality, picture quality and data capacity at a competitive manufacturing cost along with 'room for growth' as new consumer usage options are developed, fully realizes the promise of a next generation format and represents the future of home entertainment." The company will begin releasing new films, TV programming and other titles from Fox's vast celebrated library of best-selling film and television programming when Blu-ray hardware launches in North America, Japan, and Europe.

Read more at: http://www.blu-ray.com/
 
Driftster
No way Evil, they couldn't make as much $ if it wasn't for the snazzy box sets.

Nah, I think we'll still see box sets, but instead of being one season for a box set, we'll get two seasons, on four discs, in a box set, or something similar.
 
tha_con
Nah, I think we'll still see box sets, but instead of being one season for a box set, we'll get two seasons, on four discs, in a box set, or something similar.
Multiple single layer disks for sure. There's less money involved if you sell several seasons at once, and people feel like they didn't get as much for their money when they see just one or 2 disks for a $80+ "box set"
 
emad
Multiple single layer disks for sure. There's less money involved if you sell several seasons at once, and people feel like they didn't get as much for their money when they see just one or 2 disks for a $80+ "box set"

Single layer = 25GB

That's nearly three DVD's (assuming they were dual layer DVD's approx. 9GB)

One DVD usually has what? 5-6 ep's? We'll say 5 to keep it round.

One season is what, 25 eps? So we'll say it takes roughly 5 DVD's to do one season?

You'll see multiple seasons, it's just going to happen, and consumers will buy whatever the newest format is with yada yada.

It won't hurt anyone to sell three to four seasons in a boxed set. They can package it with a cheap tin, and still charge $80, they will still make a profit on something they've sold twice before on VHS and then DVD. And knowing most people, we'll see them released twice on a format, so we'll see the first gen seasons on Blu-Ray, then we'll see the second gen, digitally remasterd etc etc, with commentary or something, and probably presented in wide screen, with extras no one cares about.

Money is in reselling, not selling once, and most companies resell over and over, especially with a series like the simpsons. The following is just that big, it's like Star Wars.

Also, remember that this only pertains to things that will not be presented in High-Def. I don't see the simpsons having any High Def content, lol, but shows like friends etc, I think it's possible, and in that case, you will STILL have big box sets because they will take more space, hence more discs.
 
Movies stored on Blue-Ray will be higher definition once the ball gets rolling, some films and series as Tha_Con said may never be availalbe in high def or just not need it, the ones that are will take up more space, maybe a lot more. You can't look at the space a film takes on a DVD and say, thats what it will take on a Blue-Ray
 
^^ definately true. Currently, high definition movie trailers that last only a few minutes (well under 5) come in at over 100mb a pop.
 
emad
^^ definately true. Currently, high definition movie trailers that last only a few minutes (well under 5) come in at over 100mb a pop.

agreed, but then I wonder about film that was filmed before high definition...I mean...specifically the simpsons, lol, I just don't know if they'll ever do that in high def....can you even DO a cartoon in highdef? what does that look like? lol.
 
It looks the same as it does now, only bigger.

Film is resolution-independant. And The Simpsons, like most television shows, is shot on film. It's like scanning a photograph using a normal PC scanner. You can scan it at 640x480, or you can scan it at 4000x3000. Obviously, the higher the resolution, the greater the detail.

Animation is perfectly capable of being encoded in high-definition. The only downside is that it probably won't dramatically increase the detail (since it didn't have much detail to begin with). But it will still be sharper, and will look better on ye olde HDTV.
 
Looks like some film companies are pulling out of HD-DVD, Others are taking it slow with reduced releases. If they do go hi-def there is one other option, bluray.

source1up
 
New news about Blu-ray, and copy protection.

In a move to protect against illegal copying and large scale piracy while leaving consumers the flexibility to manage and enjoy copies of their legally purchased content, the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has adopted the most comprehensive content management system ever employed on an optical disc format. The Blu-ray Disc content management system includes three primary components: Advanced Access Content System (AACS), "BD+", a Blu-ray specific enhancement for content protection renewability, and "ROM Mark", a measure unique to Blu-ray Disc to guard against mass production piracy or the mass duplication and sale of unauthorized copies of pre-recorded media. "Content protection is a critical issue for next-generation media distribution," said Joshua Martin, Associate Research Analyst, IDC's Consumer Markets group. "Finalizing the content protection scheme is critical for the launch of blue laser optical disc technology, and new protection schemes should allow for increased consumer flexibility while better protecting prerecorded content compared to current DVD technology.
 
Blu-Ray continues to grow and the support continues to grow. And with Toshiba announcing some of their first HD-DVD players to be released in the '05 holiday season priced at nearly $1000, it won't matter how cheap it is to make discs, the format simply won't push well. The headstart is just too early. I think Blu-Ray has a MUCH better chance now, with more companies willing to back it, and PS3 giving it a push. All it takes is PS3 users to watch Blu-Ray movies and more companies will being to produce movies for the format, and the rest will be history.
 
Just a little more info on the fight over copy protection. enjoy the long article, but it dose make for some interesting reading.


"Laser beams, cryptography, modifiable weapons – we must be talking about war, right? Yup, well… at least a format war, and nothing gets one going in the morning like a good format war.

While the war between the two next-generation disc formats, Blu-ray and HD-DVD rages on and consumers sit in their all-too-familiar paralyzed purchasing state, the time seems right to ponder what these wars and the future of these wars mean to consumers.

After all, it’s been an interesting couple of weeks for HD-DVD and Blu-ray. On Friday July 29th, Fox announced that it would be backing Blu-ray. In doing so they would be joining Disney and, of course, Sony in the Blu-ray camp. Thus, the major players are split down the middle with Universal, Warner, and Paramount on the other side in the HD-DVD camp. Then, on August 9th, Blu-ray finally announced its plans for keeping its content secure. As expected, the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has, like HD-DVD, chosen Advanced Access Content System (AASC). However, BDA will also be adding two additional defenses: BD+ and ROM Mark.

Sounds like a typical format war, right?

This war, however, is different from many others. In the format wars of the past, the victory came to he who could give the customer the most; or, at least that was ostensibly the goal. For instance, Betamax was largely touted to have better video quality. VHS, on the other hand, was quick to deliver longer running tapes. If memory serves me correctly, the presence of porn might have also played an, uh, hand in VHS’s victory (but pornography’s affect on technology decisions is fodder for a whole different column). In any case, the market (more or less) chose its technology.

Likewise, the DVD format wars had the consumer in mind. DVD-RAM, +, -. +-RW, etc – they all had pros and cons. Don’t get me wrong; patents and licensing fees played a prominent part in the play. However, at the end of the day, the parties involved were careful to frame the debates to appear to have the consumer in mind. For instance, DVD-RAM backers would advertise their durability and their better handling of random access. At the same time DVD-R and DVD+R backers were quick to point out that their technologies were compatible with existing players.

So why is this war different from all other wars? Andrew Setos, president of engineering for the Fox Entertainment Group, put it best when he officially declared that the customer was no longer their main concern saying, “Our announcement last Friday that we would be, in fact, publishing on Blu-Ray disc was a result of content protection, and no other issues,” Setos went on to say that included in “no other issues” was the higher cost of Blu-ray disc production. That’s right – HD-DVD and their use of AACS was not enough for the good people at Fox. They needed, nay, demanded more copy protection — the cost be damned. Toshiba and their HD-DVD ilk shot back, claiming their copy protection was tough too. Isn’t it great to hear two groups fighting over who can best lock down content?

Perhaps the scariest aspect of Blu-ray’s latest salvo is the use of BD+. Similar in concept to DirecTV’s piracy countermeasures, BD+ is Blu-ray’s method of responding to hacked machines. BD+ allows Blu-ray to both a) change the security system on a device and b) lock out hacked machines.

For instance, let’s assume that a device is hacked (a fair assumption). BD+ would allow Blu-ray to essentially render the hacked devices useless. OK – that’s a concept we’ve heard before. Key revocation is nothing new.

The difference is that BD+ can also be used to get the disabled machines back up and running (back in a protected state of course). At this point you might be wondering why that’s bad. It’s a fair question. After all, it’s designed to help you. The problem is that it might just be the added comfort Blu-ray needs to pull the trigger and disable the device in the first place.

Conventional wisdom has always been that companies wouldn’t have the chutzpah to actually revoke devices. The outcry would be too great. The collateral damage would be massive. BD+ helps assuage the fears. In theory, BD+ should be able to target only hacked devices (and not vulnerable devices). However, it’s rarely that easy. Any mistaken revocations of valid devices would have consumers up in arms. Furthermore, anyone who has lived through one of DirecTV’s massive card swaps is aware that these measure-countermeasure games only last so long before the countermeasures are exhausted and the game is over (winner: hackers). It’s a temporary solution to a long term “problem.”

Somewhere along the line technology companies lost sight of who their customers were. They seem to have forgotten who purchases all those players. So worried were they that content companies would license their catalogs to the “other” company that they forgot who was paying the bills. They forgot who would be buying their products. The result appears to be two companies fighting to offer their customers less and less functionality; two competing technologies, in an effort to distinguish themselves from what were very similar products, have decided to forgo the “let’s pool our licensing fees and all win” route. Instead they’ve decided to wage a “I can best capitulate to the whims of the content providers” war.

At best, these capitulations merely raise the cost of development and production of the next generation players. At worst, they represent a usability nightmare."
Source:- The clicker
 
August 16, 2005 09:00 AM US Eastern Timezone

Universal Music Group Joins Blu-ray Disc Association; World's Leading Music Company to Support Blu-ray High Definition Optical Format

SANTA MONICA, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Aug. 16, 2005--Universal Music Group (UMG), the world's leading music company, has joined the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) as a contributing member. The addition of Universal Music Group to the BDA's current lineup of more than 140 leading companies in the hardware, software, consumer electronics and information technology industries is expected to have a major impact on how music is created and enjoyed by consumers.


"The delivery of both high-definition video and multi-channel audio technologies is becoming increasingly important," stated Larry Kenswil, President of eLabs, UMG's new media and technologies division. "We recognize that Blu-ray Disc has the capacity, functionality and interactivity both artists and music fans demand. We intend to work closely with the BDA in order to represent the unique requirements of the music industry in the format creation process."

"Universal Music Group is the latest in a continually growing list of companies that have told us Blu-ray Disc's capacity and functionality are important to the growth of their future business," said Brian Zucker, Blu-ray spokesperson and Technology Strategist at Dell. "In collaboration with the world's leading technology and content companies, we are on track to launch a complete high-definition format that is a quantum leap in innovation and delivers a dramatic new consumer experience in all areas of home entertainment -- movies, music and games."

About Blu-ray Disc

Blu-ray Disc is the next-generation optical disc format being developed for high-definition video and high-capacity software applications. A single-layer Blu-ray Disc will hold up to 25 gigabytes of data and a double-layer Blu-ray Disc will hold up to 50 gigabytes of data.

About the Blu-ray Disc Association

The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) is responsible for promoting and further developing business opportunities for Blu-ray Disc -- the next-generation optical disc for storing high-definition movies, games, photos and other digital content. The BDA has more than 140 members. Its Board of Directors consists of Apple; Dell Inc.; Hewlett Packard Company; Hitachi, Ltd.; LG Electronics Inc.; Mitsubishi Electric Corporation; Panasonic (Matsu****a Electric); Pioneer Corporation; Royal Philips Electronics; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corporation; Sony Corporation; TDK Corporation; Thomson; Twentieth Century Fox; and Walt Disney Pictures and Television.

About Universal Music Group

Universal Music Group is the world's largest music company with wholly owned record operations or licensees in 77 countries. Its businesses also include Universal Music Publishing Group, one of the industry's largest global music publishing operations.

Universal Music Group consists of record labels Decca Music Group, Deutsche Grammophon, DreamWorks Nashville, Interscope Geffen A&M Records, Geffen Records, Island Def Jam Music Group, Lost Highway Records, MCA Nashville, Mercury Nashville, Mercury Records, Philips, Polydor Records, Universal Music Latino, Universal Motown Records Group, and Verve Music Group as well as a multitude of record labels owned or distributed by its record company subsidiaries around the world. The Universal Music Group owns the most extensive catalog of music in the industry, which is marketed through two distinct divisions, Universal Music Enterprises (in the U.S.) and Universal Strategic Marketing (outside the U.S.). Universal Music Group also includes eLabs, a new media and technologies division.

Universal Music Group is a unit of Vivendi Universal, a global media and communications company.
 
Sony asked people to reach for the top shelf with Betamax, but Sony didn't really play its cards right.

If Apple can get millions to buy $300 Ipods while dozens of cheaper MP3 players lurked about, I don't see why Sony can't sell high-quality Blu-Ray discs in the midst of lower-quality next-gen discs.
 
German Muscle
The Anti PS3 fanboys dont like Blu-Ray, everyone else does. And the Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD is more like the DVD vs. VHS. DVD is huge, but you can still get VHS as an option.
Blu-Ray will pwn HD-DVD I reckon.
 
I would think GT5 could be the first game to use Blue-Ray ,the would love that having all that storge space
 
Theres now problems with agreeing deals and stuff with the Blu Ray makers.
 
No, just toshiba and the last ditch effort to have one hd medium. Nothing to do with the supporters or technology as far as what I read.
 
Back