BMW GINA concept

[Danoff]

I've taken some time to think about this, to weigh in what BMW is trying to tell me, what it means for the future of car manufacturing, and what it means to me. And I came up with answer of "absolutely nothing."


I understand the idea, but it is far too outlandish to anything remotely close to practical. Ever. The fact that BMW has no plans to pursue it beyond this concept tells that in spades, as do the numerous problems with the very idea that are inherent to the base design. The closest we will probably ever have to cheaply replaceable body parts was seen in the Z1 and countless Saturns, and most people never bothered with it then. Even if we do come up with something else besides plastic paneling, I doubt it would be something as impractical and inherently flawed as this idea is.


So, to sum up, lovely...thing. I'm sure BMW spent a lot of time on it. Now show me something relevant.

Why don't you give it a try and tell us what you think is inherently flawed about it. I haven't seen a single legitimate knock against it in this thread.

 

[Tornado]

The car would be dangerously unstable at any notable speed. One would need to back every piece of fabric exposed to wind with a sturdier material of some kind to prevent it from becoming a giant wind sock, which means the weight saved by not using body panels would likely be wasted simply to prevent the fabric from moving in on itself as pressure against it increased. Likewise, the seams in the fabric for the hood and doors are just asking to be torn open at speeds.

As it stands on the GINA, that idea would be impossible to apply to a car with a roof and/or more than two doors simply because the shape of the pieces would prevent it from being stretched to fit. How to you stretch a body panel to fit over a roof, down an A, B and C pillar and around 4 doors? Even coupes wouldn't exactly be a walk in the park to do, because you can't stretch something over a gap and have it form fit to that gap at the same time. The doors on the GINA show that quite clearly.

Also, we know nothing about how this would hold up in the real world. What about the typical problems with cloth materials that nomrla body panels (no matter what they are made of) do not suffer from? How would we clean it? Would it resist mud? What about heat or flames? What about noise insulation? What about sharp objects/scrapes? How long would it last before fading? What about intense sunlight?

Furthermore, its highly doubtful that labor spent repairing such a car would decrease. Lets say you hit something enough to dent the bumper. To replace it on a normal car would simply mean to take off the front clip/panel and replace the bumper underneath. To do it on this you would need to reskin the entire car. For that matter, if you were to tear the fabric on it, what would normally simply be an entirely-livable paint scratch would then be a costly complete body repair.

Furthermore, what is the long term usability of the car itself? The bits and pieces underneath the skin are undoubtedly highly complex, and complex parts break and are expensive to fix on normal cars. Would there be a used car market for this?


I say it again: This GINA thing is interesting, but so are the weird things that always crop up at the Tokyo Motor Show. And some of those are more useful when their ability to actually be built and used is taken into consideration. The way the GINA has been presented simply makes it an interesting sideshow.

 

[niky]

Personally, I think it's very relevant. Aircraft used to be made of fabric. And those travel at speeds most road cars can only dream of.

We've had wooden car bodies, basket-woven car bodiess (!!!), plastic, fiberglass, aluminum, carbon fiber... etcetera... a fabric skin wouldn't be much of a stretch.

The big question is, whether fabric will lower the cost of manufacturing and save weight, or whether the need for bracing to keep its shape will make it just as expensive as metal cars.

Hmmm... fabric doped to make it stiffer, but with some flexible portions left in for such things as doors, headlights, etcetera... the aerodynamic bonuses of a seamless body... sounds like a great idea.

 

[Tornado]

a fabric skin wouldn't be much of a stretch.

I see what you did there.

 

[Danoff]

The car would be dangerously unstable at any notable speed.

Says the guy who has absolutely no idea whether that's true. Have you done wind-tunnel tests that BMW is unaware of? I see absolutely no reason mechanically that this would affect that stability of the car in any way whatsoever other than to improve it due to reduced weight away from the center of mass.

One would need to back every piece of fabric exposed to wind with a sturdier material of some kind to prevent it from becoming a giant wind sock

Uh... no. Niky took care of this one.

Likewise, the seams in the fabric for the hood and doors are just asking to be torn open at speeds.

There are numerous reasons to think that the seams might actually be the strongest part of the skin. It all depends on how they design it - assuming there are seams and not some sort of clamp which could easily be as strong as the rest of the skin.

As it stands on the GINA, that idea would be impossible to apply to a car with a roof and/or more than two doors simply because the shape of the pieces would prevent it from being stretched to fit.

Uh... what? You are aware that there are CURRENTLY cars with cloth roofs right? Honestly I have no idea where you got this idea.

...you can't stretch something over a gap and have it form fit to that gap at the same time. The doors on the GINA show that quite clearly.

They show that the problem can be solved quite clearly...

Also, we know nothing about how this would hold up in the real world.

That's right, rendering this...

What about the typical problems with cloth materials that nomrla body panels (no matter what they are made of) do not suffer from? How would we clean it? Would it resist mud? What about heat or flames? What about noise insulation? What about sharp objects/scrapes? How long would it last before fading? What about intense sunlight?

...pointless. Because we "know nothing" about these issues. Perhaps it's phenomenal at each of these. Typical body panels aren't as easy to clean as this could be. They don't resist mud as much as this could, they're probably better at heat resistance, but they don't provide much noise insulation. Sharp objects is probably legit, but if there's a bunch of sound-deadening material beneath like in a normal car, I wouldn't expect that to be a problem. And normal body panels fade with sunlight - these could be easier to replace than getting a new paint job. There's a lot of speculation, but I don't think you have enough information to claim that any of these are real issues.

Furthermore, its highly doubtful that labor spent repairing such a car would decrease. Lets say you hit something enough to dent the bumper. To replace it on a normal car would simply mean to take off the front clip/panel and replace the bumper underneath. To do it on this you would need to reskin the entire car.

Not necessarily, maybe just the front. And they guy did say that it only took a few hours to skin the entire car. So the total job takes only a few hours. Last time I replaced a bumper it took longer than that for the paint alone.

For that matter, if you were to tear the fabric on it, what would normally simply be an entirely-livable paint scratch would then be a costly complete body repair.

It wouldn't scratch as easily as point because it's flexible. But if it did, this provides the potential for a self-repair in a short period of time rather than a new paint job.

Furthermore, what is the long term usability of the car itself? The bits and pieces underneath the skin are undoubtedly highly complex, and complex parts break and are expensive to fix on normal cars.

Probably no more complex than the bits and pieces underneath of body panels that make the car go in the first place. If your problem is with complex parts, I hope you bought a car with manual windows, no radio, and a flintstones hole in the floor.

It just takes the slightest bit of vision to see how this can be a dramatic improvement in car technology. I can't believe that you're pooh-poohing the idea because you don't know whether it will fade in the sun or because you don't think human beings can engineer a durable seem. Give me a break.

 

[V1P3R]

I got one you can't argue. You can't slap a "poward by BMW" sticker on it.

 

[Brett]

... a fabric skin wouldn't be much of a stretch.

Nice! 👍

 

[Scaff]

. a fabric skin wouldn't be much of a stretch.

Actually back in the day of coach-builders (and prior to monocoque chassis) fabric skined cars were not that uncommon.

Here's a very nice example...

Source - http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C25795

..a 1928 Lagonda Speed Model High Chassis 2 Litre Fabric Body, as can be quite clearly seen in the picture, apart from the engine covers the rest of the car is fabric bodied.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Tornado]

Says the guy who has absolutely no idea whether that's true. Have you done wind-tunnel tests that BMW is unaware of? I see absolutely no reason mechanically that this would affect that stability of the car in any way whatsoever other than to improve it due to reduced weight away from the center of mass.

So, you are splitting my posts up into parts when one part is explained by the next? For what reason, I might ask?
Also, the fact that you are talking wind tunnel tests on a styling exercise with no chance of production is rather odd. One only needs to look at the front of the car to see parts where, without some kind of bracing, the cloth would become a wind sock at speed.

Uh... no. Niky took care of this one.

Actually, I'm pretty sure niky also said that additional bracing would probably be needed. His other idea of having certain parts harder than others would make reskinning a car harder, as well.
Besides, if niky took care of it, why pipe up with that bit?

Uh... what? You are aware that there are CURRENTLY cars with cloth roofs right? Honestly I have no idea where you got this idea.

Yes. Cloth roofs bonded to metallic frames which are then connected to metal and are in no way connected to any other part of the car by cloth alone.
Heres an exercise for you: Bend your arm at 90 degrees and then try and make something stretch over the gap in between you hand and elbow while at the same time form fit to the inside of your arm. Kind of an impossibility, yes?
You try to do what this BMW conveniently avoids answering on a car with a roof and 4 doors, and you get this:

That green line would be the profile on every car. The only way around it would be to have multiple pieces of cloth connected together, such as individual ones for the roof and for below the belt line. Lord knows how the doors (or a trunklid) would work, because the way they are presented on the concept is far too complex (more on that in a second) and impossible for real world usage and four door applications, respectively.

They show that the problem can be solved quite clearly...

No, they show that the current design for solving the problem is messy and unrefined. Do you honestly think a buying public would buy a car that looks that unfinished when the doors are open? The car buying public are shallow enough for that to make a difference.

There's a lot of speculation, but I don't think you have enough information to claim that any of these are real issues.

Which is why I'm basing typical cloth setbacks that metal body panels don't suffer from. For example, what's easier to clean, a mud covered shirt or a mud covered fender? And by noise isolation I meant not flapping in the wind, which cloth as a tendency to do that metal does not. You are right, though, we honestly don't know that much about this wonder material. It could be something like trampoline cloth for all we know, which really doesn't suffer from traditional cloth problems.

It wouldn't scratch as easily as point because it's flexible. But if it did, this provides the potential for a self-repair in a short period of time rather than a new paint job.

Except, if it does scratch (regardless of if it is easier then paint), people would have to get it repaired immediately rather than have the option of simply ignoring it for the time being. Furthermore, you seem to have an unrealistic sense of how easy it would be to fix damage to a car like this by without having someone else do it for you. I dunno about you, but I have no tools or knowledge of how to re stretch a piece of cloth covering an entire car. I certainly do have the means and know how to replace a front bumper.

Probably no more complex than the bits and pieces underneath of body panels that make the car go in the first place.

Let's see, a hood that opens by moving parts underneath the front to spread the fabric. Doors made of at least 3 different moving pieces each.
Even without talking about the active aerodynamics, you have complex hydraulic or electrical systems just to open the doors and hood. Its doubtful that one would even be able to do these things manually, for that matter, the way they are presented in this concept. I dunno about you, but the inability to open the doors on my car without a multi layered hydraulic/pneumatic/servo system sounds a little more complex than anything in any cars I can think of today.

It just takes the slightest bit of vision to see how this can be a dramatic improvement in car technology. I can't believe that you're pooh-poohing the idea because you don't know whether it will fade in the sun or because you don't think human beings can engineer a durable seem. Give me a break.

If by vision you mean blind ambition. Nothing presented on this car is remotely close to being applied widespread. There are major problems with even the simplest things on this concept (such as opening the doors), and this concept conveniently ignores many things that most cars have. This is honestly no less overly ambitious than the concepts America produced in the 50s.

 

[Danoff]

[Rehash]

You didn't add anything to the discussion, so I assume we're done and I'll move on.

 

[Jim Prower]

You know, It's kind of laughable on how seriously people are taking this concept.

It comes off more as an art project to me than something of serious consequence. I don't believe it's feasible, now, or ever. You don't see doped fabric fighters anymore: it's usually some rigid composite. I just think it's pretty. Actually, it has something of a sensuality, clothed in spandex like it is. It definitely pleases the artist in me.

 

[superberkut]

It is more the thought of having the car physically taut to have it visually taut, which seperates it from other cars out there. At least for a modern design anyways. The big Bentleys of the 1920s-1930s (racing cars) were also fabric-covered, if I recall correctly.

 

[Tornado]

You didn't add anything to the discussion, so I assume we're done and I'll move on.

You wanted me to clarify. I clarified. The fact that you still don't like my stance when it is explained to you isn't my problem.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

clothed in spandex

It reminds me of Richard Simmons, I'll give you that.

 

[Wolfe]

One only needs to look at the front of the car to see parts where, without some kind of bracing, the cloth would become a wind sock at speed.

Depends on the elasticity and weight of the material, which are unknown to us at this time.

You try to do what this BMW conveniently avoids answering on a car with a roof and 4 doors, and you get this:

That green line would be the profile on every car. The only way around it would be to have multiple pieces of cloth connected together, such as individual ones for the roof and for below the belt line. Lord knows how the doors (or a trunklid) would work, because the way they are presented on the concept is far too complex (more on that in a second) and impossible for real world usage and four door applications, respectively.

So...what on earth is stopping BMW from either using multiple pieces of material, or attaching them to the frame at the base of the windshield and rear window? Why is it impossible to come up with a more practical solution for the hood/trunklid, or to repeat GINA's door treatment for a set of rear doors?

Concepts are reworked all the time to become production cars. Why is this one different?

No, they show that the current design for solving the problem is messy and unrefined. Do you honestly think a buying public would buy a car that looks that unfinished when the doors are open? The car buying public are shallow enough for that to make a difference.

What? I thought the doors were one of the most impressive parts of the car.

Which is why I'm basing typical cloth setbacks that metal body panels don't suffer from. For example, what's easier to clean, a mud covered shirt or a mud covered fender? And by noise isolation I meant not flapping in the wind, which cloth as a tendency to do that metal does not. You are right, though, we honestly don't know that much about this wonder material. It could be something like trampoline cloth for all we know, which really doesn't suffer from traditional cloth problems.

Judging from when Bangle fondled that sheet of the material, I doubt it could be compared to a sheet of cotton. I wouldn't even call it cloth.

Except, if it does scratch (regardless of if it is easier then paint), people would have to get it repaired immediately rather than have the option of simply ignoring it for the time being.

You know this because...?

I dunno about you, but I have no tools or knowledge of how to re stretch a piece of cloth covering an entire car. I certainly do have the means and know how to replace a front bumper.

Most people don't know how to replace a front bumper. We already know for a fact that replacing this material only takes a couple hours, so having it done by a mechanic would be cheaper, at least labor-wise, than replacing a bumper. We've already been over this.

Let's see, a hood that opens by moving parts underneath the front to spread the fabric. Doors made of at least 3 different moving pieces each.
Even without talking about the active aerodynamics, you have complex hydraulic or electrical systems just to open the doors and hood. Its doubtful that one would even be able to do these things manually, for that matter, the way they are presented in this concept. I dunno about you, but the inability to open the doors on my car without a multi layered hydraulic/pneumatic/servo system sounds a little more complex than anything in any cars I can think of today.

Why is it doubtful that one would be able to open the doors manually? Looks pretty simple to me. Also, the hood is blatantly "HEY CHECK OUT THIS COOL CONCEPT CAR." If the car were given the green light for production, they'd change it to a more conventional hinged hood.

 

[Tornado]

You know this because...?

When you apply tension to something that is torn (and since this skin would be stretched out over the car pretty tightly, it would probably be pretty tense), it becomes exponentially weaker than it was before. Depending on how tightly wound the fabric is, even the slightest tear could end up going the length of the car. It would be like pulling apart on a piece of paper normally, and they cutting an inch long line in the center and pulling on it.

If the car were given the green light for production, they'd change it to a more conventional hinged hood.

How would that work without simply changing the hood to a traditional body panel?

or to repeat GINA's door treatment for a set of rear doors?

Because most cars don't have B pillars in between where the front door stops and the back door begins, with the end of the front doors starting at the front of the back doors. The doors on the GINA look to require a solid thing to close them on for the seal, and I don't think the leading edge of another door would work for that.

Concepts are reworked all the time to become production cars. Why is this one different?

Because this one never had any chance of production.



I still don't see what the big deal is. This is just a styling concept with a snazzy presentation. The press release itself practically says the cloth skin was just a way to allow more creativity.




Anyways, for something completely different, I've read rumors that this is a 7 year old design (Wikipedia says it, for example). Mark Wan at Autozine doesn't think so based on how different it looks to the X Coupe concept, but I'm wondering where the rumors came from in the first place.

 

[Wolfe]

When you apply tension to something that is torn (and since this skin would be stretched out over the car pretty tightly, it would probably be pretty tense), it becomes exponentially weaker than it was before. Depending on how tightly wound the fabric is, even the slightest tear could end up going the length of the car. It would be like pulling apart on a piece of paper normally, and they cutting an inch long line in the center and pulling on it.

This still depends on the material, how many different pieces they use, and what kind of tension it's under.

How would that work without simply changing the hood to a traditional body panel?

The material could be draped over a relatively simple frame and attached at the base of the windshield. There could even be a hood scoop that opens to cool the engine, and closes to help warm it up in winter driving. Even with the motors for a pop-up scoop, such a hood could possibly be lighter than a conventional one.

Because most cars don't have B pillars in between where the front door stops and the back door begins, with the end of the front doors starting at the front of the back doors. The doors on the GINA look to require a solid thing to close them on for the seal, and I don't think the leading edge of another door would work for that.

I'm not seeing it.

Because this one never had any chance of production.

That doesn't mean a similar concept never will.




If you think none of the ideas on this concept have any merit, it's fine for us to disagree. I just think it's a bit odd to dismiss all of the potential flaws of this concept as unsolvable, and to believe that none of the details would change if a car like GINA were put into production.

 

[homeforsummer]

BMW's new production line:

Which is why I'm basing typical cloth setbacks that metal body panels don't suffer from. For example, what's easier to clean, a mud covered shirt or a mud covered fender? And by noise isolation I meant not flapping in the wind, which cloth as a tendency to do that metal does not. You are right, though, we honestly don't know that much about this wonder material. It could be something like trampoline cloth for all we know, which really doesn't suffer from traditional cloth problems.

We're not exactly talking cotton here. There's a brief clip in the vid where bangle is handling some of the "fabric", and it looks more like a cross between neoprene and strong, thin rubber to me. And both of those are pretty easy to clean.

 

[socomplayer2]

You know what the best part is? NO MORE DINGS AND SCRATCHES!!!

What about rips?

 

[superberkut]

That shouldn't be too common for the fabric employed, but could use some sort of adhesive or ironing process for repairs... (think common-coloured patches as a possibility). Of course, being a concept, we may not get an answer.

 

[Giancarlo]

It's purty, but this is no revolutionary movement in creativity that the windbag Bangle is making it out to be. It's a damn car with cloth instead of metal with some snazzy levers underneath to move stuff. This is WWII technology. Only thing interesting is the material's ability to withstand tearing and stretching while retaining tension for a long time. But this is just a concept car, so it probably doesn't do either of those things very well. Just some crappy plastic.

 

[ExigeEvan]

When you apply tension to something that is torn (and since this skin would be stretched out over the car pretty tightly, it would probably be pretty tense), it becomes exponentially weaker than it was before. Depending on how tightly wound the fabric is, even the slightest tear could end up going the length of the car. It would be like pulling apart on a piece of paper normally, and they cutting an inch long line in the center and pulling on it.

Have you never seen anti-tear fabric? The normal fabric is sub divided into cells by a grid of much stronger threads that prevent any tear travelling from one cell to another. Sure, it's not full proof but this complete failure you speak of wouldn't happen.

Because this one never had any chance of production.

I still don't see what the big deal is. This is just a styling concept with a snazzy presentation. The press release itself practically says the cloth skin was just a way to allow more creativity.

Anyways, for something completely different, I've read rumors that this is a 7 year old design (Wikipedia says it, for example). Mark Wan at Autozine doesn't think so based on how different it looks to the X Coupe concept, but I'm wondering where the rumors came from in the first place.

Again, this may be just a design process for now but it does highlight that a fabric skin could we well implemented. Yes there are issues, but there are also large benefits. And just to bring them to one big gathering for you.

• 
  Weight The aim at the moment is efficiency. The IC engine can only go so far alone and with the need for safety and unwillingness of the consumer to cut down on luxury losing the metallic body shell is a great way to go. That is, if this does indeed prove lighter. Carbon fibre is an alternative, but with increased demand from the aerospace industry its price will remain high for a long time.

• Pedestrian safety is also an important area being pushed in europe especially. Again, plastic may prove to better at this but who knows untill a pre-production is brought out.

• The ability to replace it. Now I don't think that what some people believe about changine it in your garage will ever come true, but it will probably come with much reduced servicing times.

I will concede that this is all looking ahead and there's no way I can properly counter any arguments you have against my points as there's no solid info, but I'm sure engineers aren't ignoring this option, even if saying your a textiles engineer isn't the greatest chat-up line

 

[TheCracker]

Looks like Audi are trying something similar with the new A7




Fail.

 

[Jim Prower]

Cam-oh...

and possibly some of the best, too, because I could SWEAR that's some sort of Ford under there...

 

[superberkut]

I see an Audi there. The lack of a massive grille in the front tipped me off.

Enterprise Rent-A-Car beat them all to it.

 

[EA11R]

That is hideous and I couldn't care less. I love it, and I want my car to have a ragtop.

and bottom.

Just the idea of setting something on the hood of the car and it depressing ever so slightly, cradling the thing gently. It will blink, stretch its fenders for a little while, and we'll be on our way. They have successfully anthropomorphized the car, and I can't get enough of it.

EDIT: Crap, it will never happen. Europe is always the place to get nifty functions like this, and they're also the ones obsessed with pedestrian safety.

But, if you hit a ped in this car, wouldn't the motion be a bit... stabby?