BMW ?.. Is something up their sleeve ? - Retaliation..

[Flerbizky]

Just saw a show on Discovery about testing the new 6 series.. And suddenly a thought occured.. Where is BMW in the supercar race ?.. I know the M6 has been released not too long ago, but IMHO, it doesn't really qualify as a "supercar"..

I know BMW built the McLaren F1 some odd 20 years ago, but that was then, what is happening now ?...

Mercedes has the McLaren SLR

Porsche has the Carrera

Audi will be showing their V10 MR car this fall...

Now - Where does this leave BMW ?.. Will they rely on the M6 which is down 100 Bhp compared to the SLR and the GT ?.. Or can we expect something from BMW that nobody has heard of yet ?...

 

[vladimir]

BMW has NOT built the mclaren F1. that was built by Mclaren, BMW only supplied them with the engine.


mercedes has the slr, VAG(audi/vw/bugatti) has lots of studies, but BMW has something entirely different, they have succes, they beat their profit records almost every year whereas daimler-chrysler and VAG have their problems.

BMW made the M1, but that was their only ever try to built a supercar (evo magazine:"proof that germans can make supercars. well, almost.")
BMW is not a supercar maker, i don't think a BMW supercar would be very succesful.

the M6 is not planned as a supercar. sure its 100 bhp down, but its also 300k down in price.

porsche made lots of money thanks to their cayenne and boxter and is more similar to ferrari, they had also already developed the engine with the intention to built a racecar.

besides, daimler chrysler has already stopped further cooperation with mclaren even if they planned more models.

 

[xcsti]

besides, daimler chrysler has already stopped further cooperation with mclaren even if they planned more models.

Isn't that just a rumor? Even if it isn't it wasn't really confirmed that they would be extending it past the SLR.

 

[Dave A]

McLaren have confirmed their building a new supercar that I think was originally going to be a Mercedes.

As for BMW they've looked into building a supercar before a few times, but they really don't have to ever go ahead. We'll see the odd concept here and there, but I doub we'll see one in production anytime soon.

 

[Rue]

BMW are good at what they do. That is building cheaply manafactured overpriced cars cars filled with cheaply manafactured overpriced options whilst at the same time creating themselves a rock-solid image through clever marketing. Why bother building a supercar which won't turn a profit when they already have probably the best public image of all car manafacturers?

 

[Ev0]

Although I do agree that BMWs are somewhat overpriced, they are not cheaply built. Sat in a new 3 series lately? The build quality is impeccable. And BMWs are routinely near or at the top of the heap in quality ratings amongst manufacturers.

As for a BMW supercar, the idea just doesn't sound all that good. BMW excels at making performance oriented luxury cars, so fitting that idea to a supercar just wouldn't work; just look at the SLR; it's the most luxurious of the big three supercars now, but it also is the worst one performance wise, which is the one category a supercar should value above all else.

 

[vladimir]

from my experience BMWs are usually cheaper than their mercedes counterparts while delivering better performance and equal (or better) quality.

 

[neanderthal]

you obviously havent sat in a recent mercedes.

mercedes quality nosedived in the early mid nineties right after the invasion of the japanese luxury cars. the ML was a bludgeon to a dying horse, but its still kicking. only the recent SL and E class are harbingers of their ancestors quality.

except for the electronic brakes of course.

 

[inferno]

How about an M7. Or better yet a return of the 8 series. (with an M8 of course) ok, so thats not quite a supercar, but BMW has always struck me as a "GT car" type of company. If they gave the 760's V12 a similar treatment as the M5's V10 or the M3's V8, they could easily bring it up to a comparable level of power to the Enzo/Carrera/SLR That would be sweet.

 

[McLaren]

I think BMW prefers to build cars that are close to supercars, but still hold them back to appeal to the market like the Z8, M1, V12 8 series, V12 7 series.

But yes, they did at least have something to do in the supercar market with McLaren and were recognised for powering their cars to win the Le Mans of '95.

 

[Max_DC]

Besides, the Mc Laren SLR is no supersport car in my opinion... It's a too fat and too expensive car that fears every corner...

 

[Dave A]

As for a BMW supercar, the idea just doesn't sound all that good. BMW excels at making performance oriented luxury cars, so fitting that idea to a supercar just wouldn't work; just look at the SLR; it's the most luxurious of the big three supercars now, but it also is the worst one performance wise, which is the one category a supercar should value above all else.

The SLR achieved the exact same lap time round the Lotus designed Top Gear track as the Porsche Carrera GT, so ho wis it the worst performance wise, it can kick a Murcielago's arse any day of the week.

 

[1X83Z]

only the recent SL and E class are harbingers of their ancestors quality.

Personal experience:
I've had my CLK for 15 months, and it's been on the road for 17 or 18. Not only has it required NO unschedule maintenance, the interior has been absolutely flawless, nothing has broken, nothing has come loose, nothing rattles. Everything has the same (very, very good) quality as it did when new, a year and a half later. I can't speak for the entire Mercedes line, but the CLK has been the absolute embodiment of automotive perfection during my ownership of it. I'm considering selling it in a year for the next M5, but if it remains this perfect I won't be able to part with it.

People like to criticize Mercedes. I don't buy it.

 

[daggoth]

Although I do agree that BMWs are somewhat overpriced, they are not cheaply built. Sat in a new 3 series lately? The build quality is impeccable. And BMWs are routinely near or at the top of the heap in quality ratings amongst manufacturers.

build quality wise you may be right! but that doesn't mean that the car is reliable! Most surveys point to the japanese cars to be the most reliable and well built, so my money goes to a japanese car because I don't want to spend my life and money in the shop.

That is unless I fall in love with a European model... In that case I couldn't care less about expenses

Too bad the European cars that I DO like are waaay to expensive for me

I think BMW is going to lauch a 4 series soon, though not anywhere near as a supercar it actually seems quite good. I'm looking forward to it

 

[neanderthal]

M5
you got one of the good ones then. it helps that yours is an AMG model, which get a fine tooth comb in addition to mercedes own quality controls. most of thier product since the W140 (1993 S class) has been of dubious quality in comparison to what came before.
and its not drivetrain issues (harmonic balancer in the V6 aside) its mostly electronic gremlins that mar a once proud marque.
even the federal version of the Gelandewagen has more glitches than the Europa models. sad really.

 

[///M-Spec]

A flagship lightweight supercar featuring the M5/M6 engine has been on the drawing board for quite a few years. Every once in a while, a spy shot of a test mule pops up, but it is so heavily disguised, there is no decent guess as to what it looks like. All we know is it is mid-engined and is made mostly of CFP, like the Enzo and Carrera GT.

I concur that the M6 is not a supercar. For one, it weighs 3800 lbs. Far too heavy to play in the same league as the Enzo and Carrera GT. It also has no active aerodynamics to speak of and don't make signifigant downforce at high speeds. The M6 is more of a GT car like a DB9 or 575M.

As for the supercar, the last I read, it has not yet been approved for production and is probably hovering in the conceptual/development stages.

BMW are good at what they do. That is building cheaply manafactured overpriced cars cars filled with cheaply manafactured overpriced options whilst at the same time creating themselves a rock-solid image through clever marketing.

BMWs are manufactured at quality levels appropriate to the market they compete in. No more, no less. They have areas in which they are strong, such as suspension design and lightweight construction. And they have areas in which they are weak, such as electronics. But so do all car companies.

They are not miracle cars nor are they junk, but more or less have parity in their respective segments with regards to build quality, QC and manufacturing. People who believe different obviously don't know much of what they speak of.

And their marketing is not particularly clever.


M

 

[vladimir]

A flagship lightweight supercar featuring the M5/M6 engine has been on the drawing board for quite a few years. Every once in a while, a spy shot of a test mule pops up, but it is so heavily disguised, there is no decent guess as to what it looks like. All we know is it is mid-engined and is made mostly of CFP, like the Enzo and Carrera GT.

M

can you post any of these spyshots?

 

[Ev0]

The SLR achieved the exact same lap time round the Lotus designed Top Gear track as the Porsche Carrera GT, so ho wis it the worst performance wise, it can kick a Murcielago's arse any day of the week.

Taken from www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/powerlaps

3rd: Porsche Carerra GT - 1.19.8
4th Mercedes McLaren SLR - 1.20.9

Doesn't look like the same lap time to me. A 1.1 second difference is quite large considering the caliber of the cars in question.

And of course the SLR beats the Lamborghini. The SLR has around 40 extra horsepower, and the SLR is a much more recent design than the Murcielago. Although the Lamborghini does cost half of what the SLR does, and IMO, looks 10x better.

 

[Dave A]

Must have got it confused with another car then, still damn fast, faster than the Ford GT, Murscielago, Koenigsegg CC8S and 911 GT3 so it's hardly slow, I know you said the big 3 cars, it was the slowest of the big 3, which do you mean? Theres the Carrera GT, this and what else because if you mean the Enzo thats a: not in production anymore and b: It's in a class above the SLR and the Carrera GT both performance and price wise. As for the SLR having an extra 40Bhp, that's not why it beats the Murcielago, the Murcielago has 85Bhp LESS than the CC8S but it beat that, horse power isn't instant track performance.

 

[1X83Z]

M5
you got one of the good ones then. it helps that yours is an AMG model, which get a fine tooth comb in addition to mercedes own quality controls. most of thier product since the W140 (1993 S class) has been of dubious quality in comparison to what came before.

Well, I can't speak personally about any of the other models - I had a '99 ML430 for a year and it was awful, but those concerns were erased when we got an '05 ML500 for about five months with no problems. I know how they look in the quality studies, but I personally believe they've improved over the last three years. Time will tell whether they can improve back to previous levels (I certainly agree Mercedes has seen better times regarding reliability).

And their marketing is not particularly clever.

How about the new 3 ad where the people are about to toss one person into the lake? That ad makes me smile.

 

[McLaren]

BMWs are manufactured at quality levels appropriate to the market they compete in. No more, no less. They have areas in which they are strong, such as suspension design and lightweight construction. And they have areas in which they are weak, such as electronics. But so do all car companies.

They are not miracle cars nor are they junk, but more or less have parity in their respective segments with regards to build quality, QC and manufacturing. People who believe different obviously don't know much of what they speak of.

And their marketing is not particularly clever.


M

BMW is also known for having an excellent safety record in all their cars. 👍

 

[frestkd]

The Older BMWs are better built than the new ones.

Although I do agree that BMWs are somewhat overpriced, they are not cheaply built. Sat in a new 3 series lately? The build quality is impeccable. And BMWs are routinely near or at the top of the heap in quality ratings amongst manufacturers.

As for a BMW supercar, the idea just doesn't sound all that good. BMW excels at making performance oriented luxury cars, so fitting that idea to a supercar just wouldn't work; just look at the SLR; it's the most luxurious of the big three supercars now, but it also is the worst one performance wise, which is the one category a supercar should value above all else.

 

[Sage]

This doesn't have much to do with the thread topic itself, but I have to say: The fake football texture that BMW's been using in the interiors of its newest cars is some of the worst material I've ever felt in my life. BMW can do so much better than that.

Anyway, supercars – I can't afford one, so who cares? Only the Italians set up whole businesses around supercars.

 

[///M-Spec]

can you post any of these spyshots?

Sorry, but no. The last one I saw was from over a year ago and I don't even remember where it was printed.

How about the new 3 ad where the people are about to toss one person into the lake? That ad makes me smile.

I haven't seen that one yet. Is it part of their "1... 2... " campaign?

The Older BMWs are better built than the new ones.

Strongly disagree. The newer ones are far more complex, so the potential of something going wrong is greater (since the car has more parts overall), but that is offset by the fact that by every measureable aspect, the cars are better built and more reliable in every way.

Same could be said of ALL cars in general.


M

 

[Duke]

Actually, there's absolutely no benefit for BMW to try to build a supercar.

They're selling everything they can make right now at a pretty large profit rate. Extra brand exposure is not what they need.

In fact, a supercar would probably be counterproductive since any flaws it might have would be amplified hugely by the inevitable hype and high expectations surrounding the project. So there is only expensive risk and little gain in even trying.

 

[Ev0]

Must have got it confused with another car then, still damn fast, faster than the Ford GT, Murscielago, Koenigsegg CC8S and 911 GT3 so it's hardly slow, I know you said the big 3 cars, it was the slowest of the big 3, which do you mean? Theres the Carrera GT, this and what else because if you mean the Enzo thats a: not in production anymore and b: It's in a class above the SLR and the Carrera GT both performance and price wise. As for the SLR having an extra 40Bhp, that's not why it beats the Murcielago, the Murcielago has 85Bhp LESS than the CC8S but it beat that, horse power isn't instant track performance.

The big three supercars currently are the SLR, the Carerra GT, and the Enzo. The SLR is definitley the weakest of the three performance wise.

And I already stated why the SLR is faster than a Murcielago. Not only is there a 40hp difference, but the SLR is 2-3 years younger than the Lambo, and it costs around twice as much, which means the SLR is a more advanced design than the Lambo. As for the difference in performance between the Murcielago and the CC8S, that is mostly due to the CC8S's gear ratios. Being able to hit 240mph does have drawbacks, as in your acceleration is going to take a hit for shorter gearing.

 

[///M-Spec]

They're selling everything they can make right now at a pretty large profit rate. Extra brand exposure is not what they need.

Every car except the Z4... which is failing to hit even the most conservative sales goals. Back in April they were offering a $4,500 factory incentive to move the 3.0i --unheard of for a BMW not in the last year of production cycle.

But yes, the rest of the lineup is selling well. Even the ugly 7.

In fact, a supercar would probably be counterproductive since any flaws it might have would be amplified hugely by the inevitable hype and high expectations surrounding the project. So there is only expensive risk and little gain in even trying.

I'm inclined to agree. Almost all supercar projects lose money and exist largely as a halo for the core brand. The project has been on the drawing boards for a long time now.. I remember reading about it even before the F1 campaign was okayed. Except back then it had a 350 hp straight six from the M3. I think the powers that be at BMW feel the same way, given the extended foot-dragging.


M

 

[vladimir]

This doesn't have much to do with the thread topic itself, but I have to say: The fake football texture that BMW's been using in the interiors of its newest cars is some of the worst material I've ever felt in my life. BMW can do so much better than that.

football texture?

 

[Ev0]

He's talking about the leatherette that comes standard on BMWs. It is fairly nasty when compared to the leather that is available as a very expensive option. I don't really mind it when compared to the cost of the real leather, and besides, you buy a car to drive it, not to feel the seating material.

 

[///M-Spec]

football texture?

I think Sage is talking about the textured plastic interior trim found in the new cars. The soft-touch areas have a distinct textured feel to them that is similar to an American football.. although I don't think there is intended to be a connection.

It is somewhat poorly implemented in the 5, but much better in the 3 and 7.

He's talking about the leatherette that comes standard on BMWs. It is fairly nasty when compared to the leather that is available as a very expensive option. I don't really mind it when compared to the cost of the real leather, and besides, you buy a car to drive it, not to feel the seating material.

Ditto. The leatherette (re:vinyl) is a very poor substitute for real leather and I am at a loss as to why some BMW owners actually like the stuff. Personally, I think BMW needs to offer their excellent cloth/Alcantara interior as a no-cost option to leatherette in the North American market.


M