BMW ?.. Is something up their sleeve ? - Retaliation..

[TheCracker]

Actually, there's absolutely no benefit for BMW to try to build a supercar.
In fact, a supercar would probably be counterproductive since any flaws it might have would be amplified hugely by the inevitable hype and high expectations surrounding the project. So there is only expensive risk and little gain in even trying.

Mercedes have proved that a manufacture of their (and BMW's) kind, who are largely known for producing hi-end saloons and grand tourers, and very good at it, just can't get their heads around producing something as focused as a supercar, without wanting to add 'luxury' and 'excess' to a product that requires neither.

The SLR is proof of this, Merc obviously tried to make it look and feel similar to their other products (especially that horrible 'Gonzo' F1 faux nose detailing) and in the end produced such a contrived, confussed and compromised car, which was only partially saved by Mclarens engineering knowledge of this kind of thing.

VW seem to be heading down the same route with the Veyron - ie totally missing the point of a supercar. Supercars can't be made by committee they need a small team of inspired individuals, with the drive to produce a flawed gem. The best supercars ever, 2.7 Carerra RS, Miura, Countach, F40, Macca F1 etc all have serious drawbacks as 'everyday' drives, but thats the whole point of them, they are ment to be intimidating, they are not designed for fat 'suits' to commute in, unfortunatly this is the main market for Merc and BMW products.

 

[slowman]

The Older BMWs are better built than the new ones.

My '84 E30 is a great car. I'm approaching 165,000 miles. I have to adjust the valves today (a half-hour job thanks to BMW's user friendly cylinder head). The only thing you have to do to keep that car running in top shape is keep up with the coolant and flush it every two years, check the oil and keep it near the top line, and change your timing belt every 20K no questions asked.

It's not unheard of for these to last 300,000 - 400,000 miles without a rebuild.

 

[1X83Z]

I haven't seen that one yet. Is it part of their "1... 2... " campaign?

There's a campaign? I've only seen that ad, twice.

I don't watch ads. Like last night - I taped "Casino" so I could watch it tonight without ads. And I watch "The OC" when it's over, on tape, so I don't have to see the ads. Man I rock.

I think BMW needs to offer their excellent cloth/Alcantara interior as a no-cost option to leatherette in the North American market.

This is how BMW screws you.

Vinyl upholstery is standard! What a joke. Price of admission for a BMW is now $29300, for an outgoing 325i with a manual. Ford would laugh at the standard spec on this car. It's got 184 horsepower - 184, for God's sake - it doesn't have a trip computer, it doesn't have a folding rear seat, it doesn't have a tire pressure monitor, it doesn't have dual power seats or even a power driver seat, it doesn't have heated seats or even leather, it doesn't have cassette or multi-disc CD. Basically it's trash, and it's not even quick trash - even a manual 325i would get out-accelerated by a Honda Odyssey; Lord only knows what would happen with an automatic 325xiT (which, by the way, is $33000 and still doesn't have any of the stuff I've mentioned).

Some might say 'I don't have leather, or a folding rear seat, I have a manual, and my car would get out-accelerated by an Odyssey' or whatever, but did you pay $29300? If you did:

a) you have a BMW
b) you got screwed

Oh, and, for the record: a = b 80% of the time.

 

[vladimir]

the 3 series is not a luxury car.

 

[Duke]

the 3 series is not a luxury car.

So? For $2000 less, I got heated, power leather seats, DVD navigation, folding rear seat, 6-disc changer, sunroof, 16 more horsepower and a better 0-60 time, comparable build quality, better ergonomics, and handling 95% as good.

 

[///M-Spec]

This is how BMW screws you.

Vinyl upholstery is standard! What a joke. Price of admission for a BMW is now $29300, for an outgoing 325i with a manual. Ford would laugh at the standard spec on this car. It's got 184 horsepower - 184, for God's sake - it doesn't have a trip computer, it doesn't have a folding rear seat, it doesn't have a tire pressure monitor, it doesn't have dual power seats or even a power driver seat, it doesn't have heated seats or even leather, it doesn't have cassette or multi-disc CD. Basically it's trash, and it's not even quick trash - even a manual 325i would get out-accelerated by a Honda Odyssey; Lord only knows what would happen with an automatic 325xiT (which, by the way, is $33000 and still doesn't have any of the stuff I've mentioned).

Some might say 'I don't have leather, or a folding rear seat, I have a manual, and my car would get out-accelerated by an Odyssey' or whatever, but did you pay $29300? If you did:

a) you have a BMW
b) you got screwed

Oh, and, for the record: a = b 80% of the time.

Aren't you tired of having the same conversation over and over again?


M

 

[vladimir]

So? For $2000 less, I got heated, power leather seats, DVD navigation, folding rear seat, 6-disc changer, sunroof, 16 more horsepower and a better 0-60 time, comparable build quality, better ergonomics, and handling 95% as good.

thats an acura, its FWD!

 

[1X83Z]

Aren't you tired of having the same conversation over and over again?

M

When we had the conversation in the past, you asserted - and I believe, correctly - that the 330i with the performance package was a better deal than rivals, especially for you. But there is NOTHING on this earth that will convince me that a base 325i is a better deal than anything but a Jaguar X-Type or a Mercedes C240, but of which are unspeakable hells.

 

[Duke]

thats an acura, its FWD!

I figured that out - I own one.

That was my point: for $2000 less than the base 325i I got all that extra stuff, and 95% of the handling.

 

[vladimir]

I figured that out - I own one.

congrats, that car seems to have incredible quality for the price. 👍
but i had to look that up since acuras are not sold in germany and i did not even know this car.
is the car entirely built in the US or just assembled?

 

[Duke]

Actually, it's 100% built in Japan. It's basically a Euro Accord, through and through.

 

[1X83Z]

but i had to look that up since acuras are not sold in germany and i did not even know this car.
is the car entirely built in the US or just assembled?

As Duke mentioned, the car is built in Japan. It's sold in Europe as the Honda Accord, where you get three engines and two bodystyles. In the United States, we get a different Honda Accord and the European Accord becomes the Acura TSX. In Britain, Duke's car is called the Honda Accord 2.4 i-VTEC Executive sedan; I'm sure the name is different in Germany but it is sold in Europe.

 

[///M-Spec]

When we had the conversation in the past, you asserted - and I believe, correctly - that the 330i with the performance package was a better deal than rivals, especially for you. But there is NOTHING on this earth that will convince me that a base 325i is a better deal than anything but a Jaguar X-Type or a Mercedes C240, but of which are unspeakable hells.

Did you analysis include these 2 important facts?

-The E46 325i was heavily discounted shortly after G35s and TL began making in-roads into their market. I could buy a 2005 325i for several thousand dollars UNDER dealer invoice? Whereas Infiniti and Acura dealers are still getting close to MSRP for their cars? Market forces at work, my friend.

-The E46 325i is no longer for sale

I won't deny BMW needs to make strides in value. In fact, I really like the fact that the G35 and TL are such great cars. This fact will only push BMW to give consumers more for less. However, this in no way diminishes my view that even a base 325 is a fine car.


M

 

[vladimir]

Actually, it's 100% built in Japan. It's basically a Euro Accord, through and through.

i read that the US model was larger than the euro model and i think the accord is usually not regarded to be in the same class as a 3, C or A4 in germany.

 

[Duke]

That's correct: we get a North America-specific Accord that is bigger than the European version. The Euro-size Accord is sold here as the Acura TSX.

I don't know what the Accord's like in Germany, but Acura is a mid-level luxury model in the US. We drove a couple A4s before we bought this and they were no nicer inside.

 

[Dave A]

The big three supercars currently are the SLR, the Carerra GT, and the Enzo. The SLR is definitley the weakest of the three performance wise.

And I already stated why the SLR is faster than a Murcielago. Not only is there a 40hp difference, but the SLR is 2-3 years younger than the Lambo, and it costs around twice as much, which means the SLR is a more advanced design than the Lambo. As for the difference in performance between the Murcielago and the CC8S, that is mostly due to the CC8S's gear ratios. Being able to hit 240mph does have drawbacks, as in your acceleration is going to take a hit for shorter gearing.

How can the Enzo be one of the current big 3 when it's not current, it's past, production has ended. As for the Lambo and the SLR then forget it, how about the CC8S and the SLR, or the Zonda C12S or most other supercars, the SLR is by no means slow, even for a supercar. As for the whole acceleration thing, TVR got it right in the Speed 12, stupidly fast acceleration, stupidly fast top speed, awesome car.

 

[1X83Z]

Did you analysis include these 2 important facts?

-The E46 325i was heavily discounted shortly after G35s and TL began making in-roads into their market. I could buy a 2005 325i for several thousand dollars UNDER dealer invoice? Whereas Infiniti and Acura dealers are still getting close to MSRP for their cars? Market forces at work, my friend.

It's still an awful deal - given its standard features, engine size, etc. I'd say it's worth around $20000 without that badge. I've also got no real evidence of the discounting - I've heard it from you a couple times. I imagine it's in full force now that the model's going away, but I'm not sure about before that.

-The E46 325i is no longer for sale

I think there are still more than a few new ones around.

this in no way diminishes my view that even a base 325 is a fine car.

For $20000 it'd be a fine car. At just under $30000, it's a madman's proposition.

i read that the US model was larger than the euro model

European Honda Accord:

sedan and wagon
- 155hp 2.0L 4-cyl
- 140hp 2.2L 4-cyl turbodiesel
- 190hp 2.4L 4-cyl

American Honda Accord

sedan and coupe
- 160hp 2.4L 4-cyl
- 240hp 3.0L V6
- 255hp 3.0L V6 Hybrid

 

[inferno]

Note, the above pictures are not to scale.


[EDIT]
(Incorrect correction corrected.)

With models growing every generation it's hard to say exactly what is compact, a mid-size and so on. But simply for the sake of example, the European accord/American TSX is about the size of the 3 series, and The American Accord is about the size of the 5 series.

 

[1X83Z]

Note, the above pictures are not to scale.

I considered saying that.

just for the sake of acuracy i wanted to point out that the American Accord has a 3.2 liter V6. basicaly a single cam version of the NSX's V6.

I said what I said and I'm of course correct. I don't even have to check it. A lot of people can question a lot of things I say, but NEVER question my knowledge of engines used in recent cars.

 

[inferno]

I said what I said and I'm of course correct. I don't even have to check it. A lot of people can question a lot of things I say, but NEVER question my knowledge of engines used in recent cars.

First off, take a chill pill man. Secondly, Your right?! I wonder why they switched back to the 3 liter?

 

[Ev0]

How can the Enzo be one of the current big 3 when it's not current, it's past, production has ended. As for the Lambo and the SLR then forget it, how about the CC8S and the SLR, or the Zonda C12S or most other supercars, the SLR is by no means slow, even for a supercar. As for the whole acceleration thing, TVR got it right in the Speed 12, stupidly fast acceleration, stupidly fast top speed, awesome car.

The Enzo is current in supercar terms. Keep in mind that we're lucky if we see one or two new supercars in a year.

The SLR is not a slow car obviously. But, it was built with the competition in mind, namely the Carerra GT and the Enzo. The SLR fails to outpace these cars, making it a much lesser machine imo. And if you ask me, the Zonda is a very overrated car. It looks great and goes pretty damn fast, but the price is just absurd; I'd rather get an F430 and have tons of money leftover (probably enough to buy a house). And comparing the SLR to the Speed 12 is just pointless. The Speed 12 was one of the most brilliant supercars ever made, thanks to it's insane power, but you can count it's "production" run on your hands. Great car, but way too limited to be held in the same regard as the Enzo or the other more common supercars.

 

[///M-Spec]

It's still an awful deal - given its standard features, engine size, etc. I'd say it's worth around $20000 without that badge. I've also got no real evidence of the discounting - I've heard it from you a couple times. I imagine it's in full force now that the model's going away, but I'm not sure about before that.

Nonsense. The E46 325i was closer to 15-20% overpriced, not 50% overpriced. $25,000 base and $29,000 loaded would be much more realistic.

You are fixating again on features and options. Even a base E46 contains a level engineering not available the $20k class. BMW did things with that car that simply doesn't happen for that little dough. To start, the unit body is much stiffer/lighter than cars in that class/size. The suspension on the E46 is all aluminum and mounted on a aluminium sub-frame carrier --no 20k car to my knowledge has this.

Almost everything a 325 does, it does better than a 20k car. To highlight this, I will compare an E46 325 to a 20k that happens to be in my driveway: my wife's daily driver, a 2003 VW Jetta GLS 1.8 Turbo 5-speed. If I recall, last year you said this was the best car in it's class (or something like that). It's sticker was $22,460.

Sit in a 325 and everything you see and touch is much nicer than anything you see and touch in the Jetta. Just to use one examle, the steering wheel is wrapped in leather, and finished with a soft-touch semi-gloss finish. It feels nice. By contrast, the wheel in the Jetta feels and is, entirely plastic. The dash, door panels.. all several steps above the VW. All the switch gear is of higher quality. In fact, if you close your eyes and point to something at random, I guarantee you it will be nicer in the BMW.

And don't even get me started on the seats, which may as well be on another planet of quality. And this is all even before you start the engine.

The 6 in a 325 absolutely TROUNCES the turbo four in the VW. It not only makes more power, it has no turbo lag, is smoother and sounds better. The shifter is better in the 325. All the primary controls move with a polished buttery smoothness you don't get in a 20k car... a recent Honda Civic perhaps being an exception.

The 325 manages to both ride better and handle better at the same time. That's because it has a real independant rear suspension instead of the cheap torsion bar found the in the Jetta. To get a real IRS in the Jetta/Golf platform, you need to step up to the $30,000 R32 model.

A 325 has better steering, brakes and handling balance because it is RWD and has 50/50 weight distribution instead of the front heavy 64/36 FWD Jetta. It's even quieter on a highway and has less NVH. The 325 is superior by far in every way any you'd be stone cold crazy if you think this is a 20k car.

26k base. 29k loaded. That is what BMW should have charged for one. And it would still be a sweet deal. I'd say the new one should be going for 28k base, 32 loaded.

As for incentives, if you don't believe me, there is plenty of 'evidence' on various BMW websites. April/May, the 325 had $2500 dealer cash and the 330i had $4000. People were buying loaded 330i's for ~$36,000. If you don't know, then you're just not looking.


M

 

[1X83Z]

I wonder why they switched back to the 3 liter?

Maybe because they didn't use a 3.2-liter in the first place.

The original V6 Honda Accord debuted in 1996 carrying a 170-horsepower 2.7-liter V6. This model was also sold in 1997. Beginning in 1998, the Accord V6 carried a 200-horsepower 3-liter V6. When that model was redesigned in 2003, the engine changed to a 240-horsepower 3-liter V6. Not only has Honda never used the 3.2-liter V6 in the Accord, no model sold under the Honda brand has ever used a 3.2-liter V6. The only models to carry a 3.2-liter V6 were Acuras - first the Acura Legend (1991-1996), then the Acura TL (1996-1998, then 1999-2003, then 2004-_), then the Acura NSX (manuals only, 1997-_), then the Acura CL (2001-2003).

I will compare an E46 325 to a 20k that happens to be in my driveway: my wife's daily driver, a 2003 VW Jetta GLS 1.8 Turbo 5-speed. If I recall, last year you said this was the best car in it's class (or something like that). It's sticker was $22,460.

Your comparison focuses on the following categories:

1. Interior appointment feel
2. Quality of switchgear
3. Quality of seats
4. Engine smoothness and sound (not mentioning that, while the BMW has FOUR MORE HORSEPOWER it actually would get out-accelerated by the Jetta and a Dodge Grand Caravan)
5. Ride
6. Handling
7. Steering
8. Brakes
9. Quietness

Most of these categories are completely based on opinion, so I'll give you mine. For starters, I think the Jetta interior is actually a very quality place. The 325i may make up a very small amount of its premium over the Jetta here, but given that the base on the Jetta is nearly $10000 cheaper than that of the 325i, it ought to. Jettas have very solid interiors, and the quality is actually astonishing for the price - unlike the BMW.

I won't argue turbo vs. n/a. I prefer whichever one delivers the best performance, and that's the Jetta's. To be honest, I think the Jetta is just as refined as the BMW regarding smoothness and sound.

Jetta does lose slightly on ride, and by quite a bit on handling. Define steering. The 1.8T's brakes are just as good if not better than the 325i's. I already covered quietness.

On the tangible side of things: Jetta offers more stuff, better engine performance, more efficiency, more front leg room, more front head room, more rear head room, and good performance for around $8000 less than the BMW. The Jetta is nowhere near the best car in the class (it's your example) but I do think the 1.8T Jetta is a far better car than the 325i. Maybe $20000 is a slight overstatement, but the 325i is still a poor value at $25k. I think most consumers would give some handling for better acceleration, too.

 

[///M-Spec]

Your comparison focuses on the following categories:

SNIPPAGE

4. Engine smoothness and sound (not mentioning that, while the BMW has FOUR MORE HORSEPOWER it actually would get out-accelerated by the Jetta and a Dodge Grand Caravan)

BMWUSA.com states the 325i hits 60 in 7.1 seconds. I don't know what VW says about the Mk IV Jetta since they've only information on the Mk V, but I do have an old Road and Track which credits the 1.8T with the very same 7.1 second 0-60 time. Both cars will trap in the 93-94 mph range in the quarter mile, making them equals in acceleration. The Jetta has a slightly better power/weight ratio and less drivetrain loss, but the 325 has better traction and easier to launch from a dig. I say stalemate as far as raw numbers go.

You also forgot my points about superior suspension design and components. Aluminium is not cheap to produce and BMW's setup is far superior to the Jetta's torsion bars. Also, there is less NVH in the E46.

Heck, we take my 330i ZHP on long trips over the Jetta because despite it having a MUCH stiffer suspension and low profile 35-series tires, it rides better than the Jetta on VW's softie sport suspension and 45-series all season rubber. In addition, it would crush the Jetta on a twisty backroad. This is the sort of magic suspension tuning I paid extra to have a BMW for.

Most of these categories are completely based on opinion, so I'll give you mine. For starters, I think the Jetta interior is actually a very quality place.

I definately agree. It is very good---for a car with a $22.4k sticker.

I won't argue turbo vs. n/a. I prefer whichever one delivers the best performance, and that's the Jetta's. To be honest, I think the Jetta is just as refined as the BMW regarding smoothness and sound.

To use on of your favorite words: "Mad!" The 1.8T gets very rough and ragged over 5,000 RPM, while a 325 motor feels like it'll spin forever and love you for doing it. The one single advantage the 1.8T has over the M54B25 is that being a turbo, it can be chipped for cheap power. That is it.

Jetta does lose slightly on ride, and by quite a bit on handling. Define steering. The 1.8T's brakes are just as good if not better than the 325i's. I already covered quietness.

Well, the Jetta has R&P steering, just like the BMW. However, the Jetta's steering gives you ZERO information about what the tires are doing. It is as tight lipped as a witness at a mobster's rackateering trial. VW needs to take some lessons from Honda on how to make FWD cars with real steering.

BMW has one of the best racks in the business. Direct, communicative and precise.

And I don't have the numbers in front of me, but a 325i should easily outbrake any Jetta that is not a GLI. The BMW also has better pedal feel. The brakes on my wife's car works just fine, but has a leaden, inert quality that makes it hard to modulate.

Plus, the lack of travel in the pedal itself makes it tough to heel-toe.

On the tangible side of things: Jetta offers more stuff, better engine performance, more efficiency, more front leg room, more front head room, more rear head room, and good performance for around $8000 less than the BMW. The Jetta is nowhere near the best car in the class (it's your example) but I do think the 1.8T Jetta is a far better car than the 325i. Maybe $20000 is a slight overstatement, but the 325i is still a poor value at $25k. I think most consumers would give some handling for better acceleration, too.

What more stuff? The only thing my wife's GLS trim car has that a base 325 didn't get is a power moonroof.

As far as space, it's no contest: the E46 is bigger. I don't care what numbers you pull. The cubic inch numbers magazines publish tell you JACK about actual USEABLE interior space. I use these cars every day. There is more shoulder room in the E46, and there is way more rear leg room in the E46. Plus, the E46 has a nicer seating position because the dash isn't so far away from you relative to where the pedals are.

The only space advantage the Jetta has over the E46 is the trunk, which will swallow enough midgets to hold a Mini Me convention.

Since you love the car so much, you should buy it from me We need a bigger car, so the Jetta has to go.


M