Brake balance

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D0wNFoRc3_

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D0wNForc3
Have been tryin to tune for the last few days to see if my lack of pace online is due to my driving or my bad setups. Anywho, I tried what little i knew and still sucked so i came on here and checked some other peoples tunes. The majority of the tunes i noticed, no matter what car, mr, ff, etc, the brake balance was set so the front brakes are less than the back brakes. My understanding is that you should have stronger brake force at the front as most of the braking is done by the front wheels, and seeing as the car lurches forward while braking the back becomes lighter so if you have stronger brake balance at the back it becomes alot easier to lock the back wheels. So I generally tune the front brakes about 2 or 3 points stronger than the back. Have I completely got this wrong?
 
Changing the brake balance has no effect on brake strength, the front pads/rotors are still bigger than the rear no matter what setting you have. Brake balance IMO changes the sensitivity.
 
Paulie
Changing the brake balance has no effect on brake strength, the front pads/rotors are still bigger than the rear no matter what setting you have. Brake balance IMO changes the sensitivity.
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so by making the back brakes stronger you are basically just helping them be on the same level as the fronts due to the fronts bigger discs and whatnot?
 
D0wNFoRc3_
so by making the back brakes stronger you are basically just helping them be on the same level as the fronts due to the fronts bigger discs and whatnot?
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I don't think that's how it works, but I'm not entirely sure. It doesn't alter the strength of the brakes in any way, just how sensitive they are to brake pressure application.
 
Paulie
I don't think that's how it works, but I'm not entirely sure. It doesn't alter the strength of the brakes in any way, just how sensitive they are to brake pressure application.
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Is there any chance you can expand on that??? Or explain it for a person that really has no idea. Sorry if Im ignorant. I just cant seem to grasp what you mean by that.
"It doesn't alter the strength of the brakes in any way, just how sensitive they are to brake pressure application."
 
As I understand it, brake balance is the ratio of stopping force between the front & rear tyres. So in real life its out of 100% and you distribute that percentage between the front & rears. Usually its something like 60:40 (F:R). However in GT we don't have that, only single numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, etc). As you say yes, usually its more balance towards the front brakes, however it can change & depends on car/track.

Also if fuel levels were involved, it usually goes you move the balance towards the rears with a full car and as the fuel burns off you then bring it more towards the front again.

Think that's right but someone else probably knows it better than me :p
 
Thanks for the info, im pretty sure i understand how they work now. But after how you all explained it, in my mind it stills seems to make more sense to have a higher "number" at the front brakes. eg: Front/7 Rear/5.
But all tunes i check out seem to contradict this.
Maybe i should just buy burnout............ j/k
 
D0wNFoRc3_
Is there any chance you can expand on that??? Or explain it for a person that really has no idea. Sorry if Im ignorant. I just cant seem to grasp what you mean by that.
"It doesn't alter the strength of the brakes in any way, just how sensitive they are to brake pressure application."
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I don't have a full grasp on it myself, but I'm guessing it means that as you apply brakes if you have the rear set to a higher number they will initially apply more of their available force. Then at say 50% brake application, the rears might be applying a higher percentage of their available stopping power than the fronts. I could be way off though, personally, it's not something I try to think about with the brakes, I tune it to handle well, that's all.
 
Paulie
I could be way off though, personally, it's not something I try to think about with the brakes, I tune it to handle well, that's all.
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Me too. But after getting smoked the last few days i figured I should try learn if I wanna be competetive.
 
Paulie
I don't have a full grasp on it myself, but I'm guessing it means that as you apply brakes if you have the rear set to a higher number they will initially apply more of their available force. Then at say 50% brake application, the rears might be applying a higher percentage of their available stopping power than the fronts. I could be way off though, personally, it's not something I try to think about with the brakes, I tune it to handle well, that's all.
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Sounds right to me. It's just how much of the braking force the front/rears will use. So if you have it at 5/5 or (50:50) it means when you hit the brakes the front/rear brakes will both have the exact same force. Similarly, if you have it at 6/4 (60:40), when you hit the brakes, 60% of the force will go to the front while 40% will go to rear.

If when braking the rear always steps out or locks, that usually means you have too much bias towards the rear.
 
D0wNFoRc3_
Me too. But after getting smoked the last few days i figured I should try learn if I wanna be competetive.
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So learn the technical bits behind suspension and diff tuning etc, just accept the brake balance for what effect it has.:)
 
Paulie
I don't have a full grasp on it myself, but I'm guessing it means that as you apply brakes if you have the rear set to a higher number they will initially apply more of their available force. Then at say 50% brake application, the rears might be applying a higher percentage of their available stopping power than the fronts. I could be way off though, personally, it's not something I try to think about with the brakes, I tune it to handle well, that's all.
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I think thats about right. The numbers dont have aything to do with braking force, just how long, or fast, it takes to apply that force. Bottom line- if your car understeers while braking make the front higher. If your car Oversteers while braking then you should make the rear number higher.

For example- With the AWD 600pp race at fuji I wuld put my brakes to 8 4 or something like that... the result would be when going around the uphill sharp turns I could hit the brakes and the rear end would slide around. To contrast that... at suzuka in the 111R tuned I turn the rear number higher so the car wont loop around going into turn 1. I learned mostly by watching NASCAR, lol, but they always say if you need the car to turn put more front brake bias.
 
EERS4YEARS
I think thats about right. The numbers dont have aything to do with braking force, just how long, or fast, it takes to apply that force. Bottom line- if your car understeers while braking make the front higher. If your car Oversteers while braking then you should make the rear number higher.

For example- With the AWD 600pp race at fuji I wuld put my brakes to 8 4 or something like that... the result would be when going around the uphill sharp turns I could hit the brakes and the rear end would slide around. To contrast that... at suzuka in the 111R tuned I turn the rear number higher so the car wont loop around going into turn 1. I learned mostly by watching NASCAR, lol, but they always say if you need the car to turn put more front brake bias.
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Except GT is the other way around, more turn you put the rear higher, less turn you put the front higher.
 
I was kind-of in the same mind as D0wNFoRc3, but after reading this, now I'm just confused. Scaff has a big write-up on here somewhere, so I guess I need to find it again so I can figure out what I'm doing.
 
front higher than rear= oversteer under braking

rear higher than front= understeer during braking

Does that make sense?
 
I keep the brake force up front stronger on all my front engine cars due to I brake late to get in the turns faster and not to lose much speed. And on rear/mid engine cars I have the brake force stronger in the rear due to there’s more weight. Pending on your driving style and setup your brakes will react in a number of ways pending on track. I suggest you keep you brake force stronger up front in front engine cars and stronger in the rear in mid engine cars. And stay away from setting up your car with Sports tires just to get around the track faster. The reason why I say the whole car and track dynamics will change once Gran Turismo 5 is released. So in turn the setup and driving tactics people have learned in Gran Turismo Prologue will no longer work. Then you’ll be really kick you self in the rear in the long run.
 
Erm, as much as possible you should brake in a straight line - any braking you do whilst cornering will not be (potentially at least) as effective. Google "Friction Circle" for a better understanding of how it works, but basically the more grip you are using to brake, the less there is left over to turn and vise-versa. Same goes for acceleration.

And the reason most cars have the brakes biased towards the front is because of weight transfer. As soon as you hit the brakes, the weight of the car shifts forward and leans harder on the front suspension, meaning more grip for the front tyres and less for the rears.
 
Paulie
I don't have a full grasp on it myself, but I'm guessing it means that as you apply brakes if you have the rear set to a higher number they will initially apply more of their available force.
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This sums it up quite nicely. Note that every car starts with a setting of 5/5. Yet, some cars will already be front-balanced with those settings, while others are not.

Like most settings (springs, dampers), the number is just a scale from 1 to 10, with the default car setting always being a 5.
 
EERS4YEARS
front higher than rear= oversteer under braking

rear higher than front= understeer during braking

Does that make sense?
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No it doesn't, because in a GT game it's the other way around, any tuner will back me up on it.
 
As far as I know from other games (Grand Prix Legend = GPL) the breaks bias need to be configured so the rear tires will always lock after (or at least at the same exact time) as with the front tires.
This is done because in GPL, if the rear tires lock first the car will mostly spin or lose control (GPL is very gentle in this) and you can lose a race only because of this. If the front tires lock first then the you have some time to release the breaks a bit to unlock the tires and gently press again if required.
Now, it all depend on the track/car/speed combination, so the driver need to fine tune the break bias for the best results (compromise is a must here) per combination.
I don't own yet a PS3/GT5P (I do plan to buy before the GT5 anyway), but I played it for a while. From what I remember the breaks tuning in GT5P is not as gentle as GPL so it has less impact.
 
Paulie
No it doesn't, because in a GT game it's the other way around, any tuner will back me up on it.
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* raises hand *

I tune my brakes for no balance change during braking. I'll use Fuji as an example, specifically the uphill run from the chicane to the front straight. None of the braking zones are in a straight line, especially in traffic. I can apply brakes, albeit lightly, wherever and whenever necessary (due to any reason) without causing under- or over- steer. This typically means I have brakes at 4/8 or something similar.
The braking zone at Daytona Road Course turn 1 is bumpy enough that this sort of setting doesn't work, you'll need to reduce rear brake to avoid spinning out there.
 
"by setting your front brakes more sensitive than the rear brakes, you can deliberately encourage your car to oversteer"

"by setting your rear brakes more sensitive than your front brakes you can deliberatly encourage your car to understeer"

Quotes Straight out of the quick tune menu...

front higher=oversteer
rear higher=understeer

Im fairly certain my 2 examples I gave in the earlier post were exactly how Brake Bias works in the game, and in real life.

A simple question will answer everything, When doing Doughnuts in a car, is it better to have Front or Rear Brake Bias?
Well, to spin around in circles is the ultimate oversteer... (front brake bias is the answer)
 
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The scrolling text does indeed say that, but that's not what happens to me when I actually do adjust my car like that.
 
EERS4YEARS
A simple question will answer everything, When doing Doughnuts in a car, is it better to have Front or Rear Brake Bias?
Well, to spin around in circles is the ultimate oversteer... (front brake bias is the answer)
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LOL, that's more a power rather than brake example ... I do 'em without brakes at all in my Caprice :D
 
clacksman
LOL, that's more a power rather than brake example ... I do 'em without brakes at all in my Caprice :D
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Really its not. If you try to spin in a circle on an ATV and you have rear brakes on... it wont spin, same with a car. Watch any race when they do victory burnouts, and doughnuts. I didnt make this stuff up, neither did the genius's that made this game.

All I can say is take the 111R tuned going 160mph into turn 1 at Suzuka and switch the brake settings. Write your findings, please. I am Really done now, lol.
 
Well, yes, applied rear brake will cancel power and prevent donuts.

You'll notice the brake settings for the 111R/Tuned I sent you are 6/3, that's for a good reason. 6/6 caused more oversteer than I wanted.
 
Well I have to say, I know it says how the breaks work in quick tune but I always got opposite effect except a few cars like Blitz Skyline, This is while drifting tho. Racing I go 8/7 which is touch sensitive and very strong, good for late breaking, tho with R1 tyres if S tyres you might get tyre squeal. While racing its hard to feel any breaking overstear/understear unless its set extreme. 4/8 etc
 

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