Britain - The Official Thread

[Famine]

I'm painfully aware that I'm now splitting hairs in the way you hate but that comment goes to the heart of my point; students in the current system don't achieve to the level that the system calls "the minimum".

I'm not interested in the system - or any system - or what such systems call "the minimum".

I'm interested in the necessary minimum standard education for everyone.

Answers that give different people different amounts of education fail all three words, unless there is a common minimum standard for everyone in there. Which is what I'm interested in.

It depends on the age, after 6 the innate abilities (which we call "talent" when preserved in older children) will have very much faded, rather like the innate human aptitude for foreign languages.

Which I think illustrates my point that an interest exists. I'd reinforce my statement that it's an innate interest. Music is something we just do, like language.

And yet I've both attended and worked at schools with children that age (and both have one and have had one). There isn't a common thread of musical interest there.

Music is either something they like or they are not interested in.

I think I've stated that several times so clearly I'm wide of the mark when anticipating your expectation. I've stated the abilities that I think form the minimum

To which I responded and enquired why you were missing two fairly important things - with reasons...

and I've explained that I don't think the current system gives a framework for either providing or measuring that minimum.

And I've explained that I'm not asking about systems. I'm asking what is the minimum standard of education that is necessary.

I completely agree. When I said "a competency in electronic document manipulation, a competent standard in reading and oration, a competent standard in criticism and a developed understanding of cultures, lifestyles and geography" I think I'd covered all your points except Human Anatomy. That's one I wish I'd included

So I'll ask again why you think the ability to add up the money you are paid each month and subtract the money you spend each month is not necessary - while knowing about other cultures, lifestyles and geography is.

It is far more vital for someone to understand their raw finances than it is to know where the Azores are.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It is far more vital for someone to understand their raw finances than it is to know where the Azores are.

I can't fail to agree. Electronic document manipulation is, I think, the key to understanding one's finances. Using calculation aids (or other forms of data processing) should be fundamental to preparation for modern life.

Answers that give different people different amounts of education fail all three words, unless there is a common minimum standard for everyone in there.

I still believe that the minimum standard I described (with the noted addition of anatomical understanding) is attainable by all students with the exception of those whose ability needs put them into a completely different spectrum of learning and lifestyle expectancy.

 

[Famine]

I can't fail to agree. Electronic document manipulation is, I think, the key to understanding one's finances. Using calculation aids (or other forms of data processing) should be fundamental to preparation for modern life.

Really? You think it's sufficient to qualify someone as numerically competent if they can press the right keys on calculation aids? Really?

I still believe that the minimum standard I described (with the noted addition of anatomical understanding) is attainable by all students with the exception of those whose ability needs put them into a completely different spectrum of learning and lifestyle expectancy.

With respect to your answer to the question, I don't hurriedly disagree - though there'd need to be some clarification.

However your independent/guided musical idea is not going to achieve a minimum standard for everyone - unless the minimum standard for everyone is "Hit this thing and it goes bang", and I wouldn't immediately file that in "necessary".


I wouldn't file knowledge of others' cultures, lifestyles and geography in there either. They strike me as things that are nice to know and beneficial when it comes to travel or encountering travellers - but as a necessity... no. I'd qualify that by adding that broad knowledge of national geography might factor though. Fewer and fewer people spend their whole lives in one town now, and approximate knowledge of which larger cities reside in which bits of the country is something that might be considered necessary.

Interestingly, not a single thing described so far needs a school or a teacher. Just a parent.


Odd, innit?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Really? You think it's sufficient to qualify someone as numerically competent if they can press the right keys on calculation aids? Really?

As a minimum, yes. Matrices hold no interest to the person who just wants to put a simple household budget together. That's an extreme example, of course.

However your independent/guided musical idea is not going to achieve a minimum standard for everyone - unless the minimum standard for everyone is "Hit this thing and it goes bang", and I wouldn't immediately file that in "necessary".

Of itself, I agree. However, as part of a wider curriculum (as I said) I think the confidences and skills from such activities (alone and in groups) build a good platform for further learning and stimulate more of the brain along the way.

I wouldn't file knowledge of others' cultures, lifestyles and geography in there either. They strike me as things that are nice to know and beneficial when it comes to travel or encountering travellers - but as a necessity... no. I'd qualify that by adding that broad knowledge of national geography might factor though.

With consideration I agree... a little. I still think that an awareness of other cultures is important, whether that be in the home city, country or continent. It's part of the prep for further learning.

Interestingly, not a single thing described so far needs a school or a teacher. Just a parent.

Odd, innit?

No, not at all

 

[prisonermonkeys]

None of those aspects are pure as a subject. The same is true of making, breaking, mending, building, messing, tasting, hearing, pushing, touching experiences through play.

The problem here is that you're over-emphasising the kinaesthetic as a vehicle for education. Individual students learn through different means; some students like the kinaesthetic, but others will prefer oral and visual. Building these into programming is the challenge teachers face.

Education is structured on four levels: first you have the curriculum, which addresses everything a student needs to know or needs to be able to do in the stage that they're at. Then you have the scope and sequence, where individual schools will take the abstract concept of a curriculum and map out how they're going to do it. Then you have programming, where you take each part of the scope and sequence and plan your content directly. And then you have lesson planning, where you focus that content in the classroom. Ours looks like this:

--> HSC Advanced English
----> Area of Study: Discovery
------> Lesson plan
------> Lesson plan
------> Lesson plan
----> Module A: Comparative Study of Texts
------> Lesson plan
------> Lesson plan
------> Lesson plan
----> Module B: Close Study of Texts
------> Lesson plan
------> Lesson plan
------> Lesson plan
----> Module C: Representation and Text
------> Lesson plan
------> Lesson plan
------> Lesson plan

Each of these has a different objective, and is essentially an evolution of the previous unit of work. The Area of Study looks at an idea in general; in this case, "discovery". We then go to the Comparative Study, which takes two texts and looks at the way their key ideas are shaped by their context. Then it's the Close Study, which introduces the idea of multiple interpretations of texts; Marxist, post-modernist, post-colonial, feminist and so on and so forth. Finally, we have Representation and Text, which examines the ways in which composers show us ideas.

So it's not as simple as saying "we need to have more of these skills in the curriculum". Schools need to be able to work them into their programming.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The problem here is that you're over-emphasising the kinaesthetic as a vehicle for education. Individual students learn through different means; some students like the kinaesthetic, but others will prefer oral and visual. Building these into programming is the challenge teachers face.

I agree, and different people will take different things from activities. When observed the different personalities (and learning styles) are evident during those activities - in a free curriculum the student is their own differentiator.

As I said earlier in the thread; that doesn't mean they shouldn't be supervised or guided, the "what if you do that?" remains as important as always.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

When observed the different personalities (and learning styles) are evident during those activities - in a free curriculum the student is their own differentiator.

I have issues with the idea of a free curriculum, mostly because students lack the ability to identify what they need to know. Given the choice, most of mine would prefer to play Minecraft. It's difficult enough when I teach Virtual Worlds and they want to get caught up in the details of individual games.

 

[Famine]

As a minimum, yes. Matrices hold no interest to the person who just wants to put a simple household budget together. That's an extreme example, of course.

A skill that requires an aid is no longer a skill you have when the aid is unavailable. Aids are things that should enhance or assist a skill, not something that you rely on solely to the exclusion of the skill.

Someone cannot be said to be competent at mathematics if they require a calculator to add and subtract numbers below 100 or multiply or divide by numbers up to 10. And that's a skill you should have when you're in the supermarket and spot the special offer pack of twelve for £5, to save you having to pick up ten individual items totalling £4.

More to the point, having ballpark mental math skills means that when you use the aid, you can recognise whether you've used the aid properly by the approximate magnitude of the expected answer.

No, not at all

It does rather suggest that all the education we put children through in school is... if not superfluous then not actually necessary for them to function in society. Which also suggests that since everything beyond the literacy and numeracy skills, reasoning and critical thinking, anatomy and hygiene that parents should be teaching their kids before they even get to a school is elective...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It does rather suggest that all the education we put children through in school is... if not superfluous then not actually necessary for them to function in society.

Only if you assume that the students only need those skills to survive in the wider world.

 

[Famine]

Only if you assume that the students only need those skills to survive in the wider world.

The wider world is also elective.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Someone cannot be said to be competent at mathematics if they require a calculator to add and subtract numbers below 100 or multiply or divide by numbers up to 10. And that's a skill you should have when you're in the supermarket and spot the special offer pack of twelve for £5, to save you having to pick up ten individual items totalling £4.

It's a thorny issue, my own view (one shared by some educators and roundly derided by others) is that if you allow "mechanical" mathematics first then it's much easier for a student to see how number patterns (and all the rest of a minimum mathematical standard) works. In my curriculum students have already spent a lot of time exercising their "concept" space so the whole thing follows much more easily.

More to the point, having ballpark mental math skills means that when you use the aid, you can recognise whether you've used the aid properly by the approximate magnitude of the expected answer.

If that were the case then we wouldn't have testing in the current system; some guidance in learning would be required before flying entirely solo.

It does rather suggest that all the education we put children through in school is... if not superfluous then not actually necessary for them to function in society. Which also suggests that since everything beyond the literacy and numeracy skills, reasoning and critical thinking, anatomy and hygiene that parents should be teaching their kids before they even get to a school is elective...

That's a good point. I wouldn't wrap all those things up in the "educational minimum" though, I'd say that some were a "personal minimum". Other than that I agree.

 

[Famine]

It's a thorny issue, my own view (one shared by some educators and roundly derided by others) is that if you allow "mechanical" mathematics first then it's much easier for a student to see how number patterns (and all the rest of a minimum mathematical standard) works. In my curriculum students have already spent a lot of time exercising their "concept" space so the whole thing follows much more easily.

This doesn't really address the comment that you quoted, which was that skills should be independent of aids, lest you find yourself without the aid and thus without the skill.

How the skill is taught doesn't bother me, since the question is still what the minimum standards are, not how we ensure that they are taught effectively.

If that were the case then we wouldn't have testing in the current system; some guidance in learning would be required before flying entirely solo.

Similarly, this doesn't really address the comment that you quoted, which was that having the skill independently of the aid allows you to better use the aid by recognising unusual outputs from the aid that may be caused by operator error.

That's a good point. I wouldn't wrap all those things up in the "educational minimum" though, I'd say that some were a "personal minimum". Other than that I agree.

They are all things that need to be imparted upon children and learned by them in order for them to function in society to neither society's detriment nor their own.

Fun fact, "education" arrives at English through French (and Middle French) and Latin, originally meaning "the rearing of children".

 

[MatskiMonk]

1500 hundred immigrants trying to get through the channel tunnel

I have divided opinions about it... but I'd do pretty much anything to get out of France too!

Should we be stationing troops there to defend our borders?

 

[Dotini]

1500 hundred immigrants trying to get through the channel tunnel

I have divided opinions about it... but I'd do pretty much anything to get out of France too!

Should we be stationing troops there to defend our borders?

You should be queuing them into a system of medical examinations and documentation before providing them with housing, education and meaningful employment. By getting started on this right away, you'll be doing the right thing.

 

[TenEightyOne]

You should be queuing them into a system of medical examinations and documentation before providing them with housing, education and meaningful employment. By getting started on this right away, you'll be doing the right thing.

We should be establishing identities and asylum claims as quickly as possible. Those that fail (which I expect would be many) should be immediately loaded onto RAF transports and returned to dispersal points in the rough vicinity of their origin.

 

[Dotini]

We should be establishing identities and asylum claims as quickly as possible. Those that fail (which I expect would be many) should be immediately loaded onto RAF transports and returned to dispersal points in the rough vicinity of their origin.

Many are fleeing Syria, essentially a battlefield. You cannot fly refugees, on an RAF transport of all things, onto a battlefield. You have a moral obligation to welcome these refugees into your economy.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Many are fleeing Syria, essentially a battlefield. You cannot fly refugees, on an RAF transport of all things, onto a battlefield. You have a moral obligation to welcome these refugees into your economy.

If they're in France they are hardly fleeing Syria, I think it would be safe to say they had succeeded.

 

[Dotini]

If they're in France they are hardly fleeing Syria, I think it would be safe to say they had succeeded.

France has a more insular, nativist, homogeneous people, somewhat more hostile to outsiders and minorities than you in the UK. Britain has a reputation of diversity to uphold. These people are coming specifically to your shores because they want to be accepted and they want jobs. It is your duty to give them both.

 

[Johnnypenso]

France has a more insular, nativist, homogeneous people, somewhat more hostile to outsiders and minorities than you in the UK. Britain has a reputation of diversity to uphold. These people are coming to your shores because they want to be accepted and they want jobs. It is your duty to give them both.

I guess I'm behind the times. I still think both acceptance and a job should be earned.

 

[Dotini]

I guess I'm behind the times. I still think both acceptance and a job should be earned.

They will rapidly earn jobs because they will compete for less.

 

[Spurgy 777]

France has a more insular, nativist, homogeneous people, somewhat more hostile to outsiders and minorities than you in the UK. Britain has a reputation of diversity to uphold. These people are coming specifically to your shores because they want to be accepted and they want jobs. It is your duty to give them both.

It's not our duty to give them anything, especially when they have so little respect for us that they try and force their way into the country to take what they want. I'd be much more inclined to help them if they tried getting in legitimately and actually asked first.

 

[TheCracker]

France has a more insular, nativist, homogeneous people, somewhat more hostile to outsiders and minorities than you in the UK. Britain has a reputation of diversity to uphold.

I wouldn't say that was the case. France has 10% of it's population of North African decent, 3.5% Black and 1.5% Asian and 85% White. The UK has 7% Asian, 3% Black and 87% are White.

 

[Dotini]

It's not our duty to give them anything, especially when they have so little respect for us that they try and force their way into the country to take what they want. I'd be much more inclined to help them if they tried getting in legitimately and actually asked first.

On the contrary, you have a positive responsibility to accept them. Firstly on the grounds that you owe them their human rights and to do otherwise would be hypocritical. And secondly because your government supports the revolutionary overthrow of Syria, and must accept the consequences of its policy, and to do otherwise would be criminal.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Nope. They are the criminals. They are attempting illegal entry into our country, which is what makes them criminals and therefore they can't come here.

 

[Spurgy 777]

On the contrary, you have a positive responsibility to accept them. Firstly on the grounds that you owe them their human rights and to do otherwise would be hypocritical. And secondly because your government supports the revolutionary overthrow of Syria, and must accept the consequences of its policy, and to do otherwise would be criminal.

What's human rights got to do with anything? It's not a human right that you can go wherever you want, that's nonsense.

And secondly, I did say I would be inclined to help if they tried to enter the country legally, but as soon as they try to enter the country illegally and force us to give them what they want we're under no obligation to help.

 

[Hun200kmh]

A couple of weeks ago I was in the UK and there I met (at a dinner we both attended) a police officer. I'm not sure of this but from all we talked I got the impression his work had something to do with border control. Here's the idea I got from him:

a) people try to enter the UK because the UK has rules about asylum seekers and immigrants in general that make it a "prime" target for everyone to try to enter;

b) this is because of european laws

c) verdict: europe is to blame, the UK must get out of it


This didn't make any sense to me. The people trying to enter the UK do it from the european mainland, so they already "got in".

This made me ask if there was anything particularly "inviting" in the UK law, because I can only imagine the nighmare you guys would be suffering at your borders if you didn't have the channel (and I don't see a problem in the german borders). Then he told me a long story about benefits with some hilarious details about some islamic extremist guy that was thrown out of the UK (he referred to him as "an enemy of the state") but his entire family was still living in Kensington, in a very expensive house fully paid by the UK tax payer ...

Then I told him "but WHY do you blame Europe for all that nonsense? The way I see it your problem resides in your own (UK) law, because we are in the European Union and we don't have nothing like that happening to us."

THEN he told me: "We had these benefits created for nationals, and the european union doesn't allow us to restrict them to nationals. There's our problem."

So, the way I see it, the problem is that the UK law is very generous (much more than anywhere else in Euope) for people in need. That's why these refugees are piling up at your door.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Lets be honest, the UK isn't just a cushy option because there are jobs, it's our keeness to give people money that haven't earned it

edit: tree'd a bit by @Hun200kmh

 

[Robin]

Sorry to interrupt the migrant discussion but I was quite shocked the Stuart Baggs, that bloke from The Apprentice years ago who famously bent the truth in front of Lord Sugar about his business dealings and said the eternal line "I'm not a one trick pony... I'm a field of ponies running towards you" had been found dead at the age of 27.

He said after the Apprentice he was essentially unemployable as no company would touch him with a barge pole and apart from a few appearances on comedy panel shows and come dine with me he basically was forever labelled as a joke and I guess in the end that pushed him over the edge (although its unconfirmed yet). It's kinda sad that he couldn't, or rather people wouldn't let him, move on from the past. I mean it was basically a game show for goodness sake.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Sorry to interrupt the migrant discussion but I was quite shocked the Stuart Baggs, that bloke from The Apprentice years ago who famously bent the truth in front of Lord Sugar about his business dealings and said the eternal line "I'm not a one trick pony... I'm a field of ponies running towards you" had been found dead at the age of 27.

He said after the Apprentice he was essentially unemployable as no company would touch him with a barge pole and apart from a few appearances on comedy panel shows and come dine with me he basically was forever labelled as a joke and I guess in the end that pushed him over the edge. It's kinda sad that he couldn't (or rather people wouldn't let him) move on from the past. I mean it was basically a game show for goodness sake.

According to the BBC report he ran his own telecommunications company, so was he that unemployable? Not to mention that a large proportion of the population wouldn't have had a clue who he was anyway - I certainly didn't. Trying to cling to stardom after reality TV is always pretty desperate IMO.

 

[Robin]

According to the BBC report he ran his own telecommunications company, so was he that unemployable? Not to mention that a large proportion of the population wouldn't have had a clue who he was anyway - I certainly didn't. Trying to cling to stardom after reality TV is always pretty desperate IMO.

Yeah but that company is a very small operation which he setup, one which he was running even before the show. Also he was the one which said he was unemployable after the show. I'm sure he would rather work from some fortune 500 company earning a mint hence why he was on the show in the first place.

Also that was the same 'company' he lied to Lord Sugar about, I can't remember the details but he inflated what it actually was. Lord sugar was furious with him and fired him on the spot.

Funnily enough the woman who won that year ended up suing Lord Sugar! Should have chosen Stuart.