Britain - The Official Thread

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How will you vote in the 2024 UK General Election?

  • Conservative Party

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Labour Party

    Votes: 14 48.3%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Other (Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland)

    Votes: 1 3.4%
  • Other Independents

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other Parties

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Spoiled Ballot

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Will Not/Cannot Vote

    Votes: 8 27.6%

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
Yes. The duty of care is with the abortion service, not with the staff performing the pre-natal scan. Otherwise you remove access to services based on your bias.
I take it you haven't worked in healthcare. We are not removing access to services based on our bias. We are removing it based on the law.

TenEightyOne
Education, not enforcement. And no doctor has to partake in abortion services if they don't wish to.
Oh, the liberal dream. Slave labour by the back door. And education not enforcement? Come on man wake up.

TenEightyOne
Bull ****. That's perfectly capable of happening in any case.
Fuel. Fire.

TenEightyOne
So it's okay to discriminate against the parents before they've even had chance to have their baby?
Let me think about this. Yes. Like it or not we do it all the time in healthcare. We screen populations based on trends. We intervene in populations based in trends. We go where the science, and society takes us.

TenEightyOne
All the things you describe can be genuine problems but, once again, you seem to think that you speak for all of a particular culture in all cases and, more worryingly, that only those cultures are capable of the majority of the actions.
Which part are you not understanding. Some cultures have a predisposition to this. You'll notice I included "Alcoholic husband". Since you are lecturing me on my lack of understanding of culture, care to enlighten me which specific Asian group is particularly susceptible to this problem, so much so that Alcohol Services in Ealing are more actively geared towards them (hint, it's not Muslims for a change).

TenEightyOne
You really think that the answer to FGM is to only have male babies? You need longer in your education, in my opinion, that's a mad standpoint.
If you got that from my argument I can only suggest that it is you who needs to go back into education.

TenEightyOne
Oh, the horror. Do make sure that Your Man washes your feet as you leave.
So says someone who probably never has set foot in one, let alone lives in one. Enlighten me again with your extensive knowledge: Which groups are found in West, North West, and East London please, and tell me some of their cultural differences.

TenEightyOne
Do you know either who she is or what the paper is? That's one very-upper-class, Finished elderly lady claiming that she was in "a ghetto". I wonder what her stance on multiculturalism is?
Ahhhh the old Gordon Brown "bigot" ploy. The days of silencing Brits with the "You're Racist!" card are numbered. Nice try, but if you want to man up and walk through one of these ghettos day in day out please let me know how your experience goes. In fact I challenge you - head south of Southall past the train station. Don't wear a kippah whatever you do!

What a privilege it is to comment on people in the ghettos, without actually going to the ghettos. You and your type are exposed my friend.

TenEightyOne
You're clutching at straws now.
Pot. Kettle. Pitch Black.

-----------

I will speak later about my School's affirmative action policy later. Let's just say I just finished having an interesting talk with a white girl who had A*AA at A level and her disappointment with our Medical School.
 
Hence why we don't tell the gender to Asian families at prenatal scans so they don't pop off to the abortion clinic after finding the devastating news that the mother is carrying a girl.

We are not removing access to services based on our bias. We are removing it based on the law.

You may feel empowered by an aspect of the law to remove choice to an ethinic group, but are you actually telling us the law states Asians must not know the sex of an unborn baby? I mean, if they simply ask the question, can you rightly say "it is illegal for me to tell you the answer to that"? I don't know for a fact, but to me, that seems quite unlikely.
 
You may feel empowered by an aspect of the law to remove choice to an ethinic group, but are you actually telling us the law states Asians must not know the sex of an unborn baby? I mean, if they simply ask the question, can you rightly say "it is illegal for me to tell you the answer to that"? I don't know for a fact, but to me, that seems quite unlikely.
Interesting argument.

To answer your question - no, we aren't that blunt. NHS trusts, as far as I'm aware circumvent the issue by blaming it on other reasons, or saying that "it's Trust policy". See here for a good article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...to-tell-parents-the-sex-of-unborn-babies.html

So when I say we don't tell Asians the sex of the baby, it's more of a catch all thing. It is because of the cultures that Trusts don't to expectant mothers. The same would be equally true if we had a large Chinese population living in an area of the UK I imagine.

As it is the dilemma is as follows: A sizable proportion (I'd say majority but since you can never have conclusive proof) of abortions carried out in the country at present are requested for reasons other than the criteria of the Abortion Act, which only is meant to grant abortions in the event:

(a)that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or

(b)that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or

(c)that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or

(d)that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped

Women, or men forcing women to have an abortion for other reasons (i.e. pro-choice: "Not the right time", "don't want a female baby", "contraception broke" etc) get around this by going to, or being guided to by healthcare professionals to point B, specifically the "mental health of the pregnant woman". This keeps everyone - patients, doctors, lawyers happy. Now at the moment we have an immense pressure on abortion referrals for "lifestyle reasons", which some baulk at, including the Obstetricians carrying out the procedure (I recall an interesting article by one who reflected on her choice of career after performing the third abortion on someone who refused to take contraceptive advice - what were you saying about education @TenEightyOne?), but we don't want to go to the dark ages of backstreet abortions so it's something the medical community largely turn a blind eye to. Something that is sure to provoke reaction however is sex-selective abortion. Personally I make little distinction between the two as seen by my posts in the Abortion thread, but different strokes and all. Healthcare professionals therefore aim to cut the problem before it even occurs, which brings us to maternity units not giving out the sex of the baby at scans.
 
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Interesting argument.

To answer your question - no, we aren't that blunt. NHS trusts, as far as I'm aware circumvent the issue by blaming it on other reasons, or saying that "it's Trust policy". See here for a good article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...to-tell-parents-the-sex-of-unborn-babies.html

So when I say we don't tell Asians the sex of the baby, it's more of a catch all thing. It is because of the cultures that Trusts don't to expectant mothers. The same would be equally true if we had a large Chinese population living in an area of the UK I imagine.

As it is the dilemma is as follows: A sizable proportion (I'd say majority but since you can never have conclusive proof) of abortions carried out in the country at present are requested for reasons other than the criteria of the Abortion Act, which only is meant to grant abortions in the event:

(a)that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or

(b)that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or

(c)that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or

(d)that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped

Women, or men forcing women to have an abortion for other reasons (i.e. pro-choice: "Not the right time", "don't want a female baby", "contraception broke" etc) get around this by going to, or being guided to by healthcare professionals to point B, specifically the "mental health of the pregnant woman". This keeps everyone - patients, doctors, lawyers happy. Now at the moment we have an immense pressure on abortion referrals for "lifestyle reasons", which some baulk at, including the Obstetricians carrying out the procedure (I recall an interesting article by one who reflected on her choice of career after performing the third abortion on someone who refused to take contraceptive advice - what were you saying about education @TenEightyOne?), but we don't want to go to the dark ages of backstreet abortions so it's something the medical community largely turn a blind eye to. Something that is sure to provoke reaction however is sex-selective abortion. Personally I make little distinction between the two as seen by my posts in the Abortion thread, but different strokes and all. Healthcare professionals therefore aim to cut the problem before it even occurs, which brings us to maternity units not giving out the sex of the baby at scans.
So when you say based in law what you actually mean is not based in law?
 
Welcome to the NHS! :lol:

I didn't understand your answer. Is your refusal to tell Asian families the sex of their baby a refusal that is based in law or not?

Clearly you'll have published guidance on the subject, please could you post some for us?
 
I didn't understand your answer. Is your refusal to tell Asian families the sex of their baby a refusal that is based in law or not?

Clearly you'll have published guidance on the subject, please could you post some for us?
Oh you have definitely never been in an NHS handover!

These things are done outside of being written down. Can you imagine if a whistleblower said the reason we don't offer scans is because of a lost generation of girls?

The world isn't black and white, and with the NHS (and probably healthcare around the world) it is very, very grey.

In a way this is similar to the unwritten protocols our staff follow when we deal with the death of a member of an Asian family. You will never see them in any policy book!
 
I take it you haven't worked in healthcare. We are not removing access to services based on our bias. We are removing it based on the law.

Oh you have definitely never been in an NHS handover!

These things are done outside of being written down.

So which is it... removing the right to know the sex of your unborn baby based on the healthcare worker's predisposed opinion about the likelihood of an abortion is based in law or it isn't based in law?

These things are done outside of being written down. Can you imagine if a whistleblower said the reason we don't offer scans is because of a lost generation of girls?

Like you just did?
 
So which is it... removing the right to know the sex of your unborn baby based on the healthcare worker's predisposed opinion about the likelihood of an abortion is based in law or it isn't based in law?
Erm, based on the law that you can't abort baby girls. Unfortunately you can't really deny an abortion if a patient presents lying that their reason for the abortion is their mental state when in reality they don't want a girl. This way you remove that possibility by not telling them if it is a girl. The policy is based on this eventuality of illegal thought (and the possibility of the Trust being sued by parents told they are getting the wrong sex), so it is still based on the current law. It's just not explicit.

TenEightyOne
Like you just did?
Whistleblowing requires more weight behind what I'm saying, believe me. There's actually a big thing going on with the Department of Health trying to grant more protection to whistleblowers.
 
Welcome to the NHS! :lol:
That's not an answer.

I'm trying to establish if when you stated that this policy was 'based in law' that was actually based on anything factual or if you simply made it up.

Every member here is allowed to voice an opinion, however what you are allowed to do knowingly post misleading or inaccurate material.

As such can you either provide a source for the law this is based on or explain why you made what would be a knowingly misleading statement.
 
The policy is based on this eventuality of illegal thought (and the possibility of the Trust being sued by parents told they are getting the wrong sex), so it is still based on the current law.
No.

There is zero legal reason whatsoever for local NHS Trust policy to deny gender information to any family, much less specifically Asian ones. It is a policy decision and a policy decision alone, usually taken by Trusts with a high Asian (particularly Indian, though not exclusively) population, and it dates back at least 20 years - I know of its presence in Slough in the late 1990s. It is not the law.

However, if you've ever been to one of those ultrasounds (and I have) you will know that even when they do give gender information they will say that it is not a 100% guarantee. And while it may be the policy of the Trust there's absolutely nothing stopping a family from taking a scan from a private concern and finding out the gender that way.

The reasoning is actually a layer deeper than you present. It's not to prevent people getting abortions of female foetuses by denying them the information, but to prevent people from getting illegal abortions outside the conditions of an appropriate clinic. As you mention, "because it's a girl" isn't considered a valid reason for an NHS abortion - but that's nothing to do with anything because you don't have to give a reason. This concept of being asked why you want an abortion puts people off approaching the NHS anyway so they resort to less sterile approaches.


I would counter-argue that it is far better for these families to abort female foetuses than, since they are clearly so uncaring of female children, making them keep it by denying them medical information they have a right to (and they do) and bringing a child into a world of abuse, neglect or, in a best case scenario, a complete absence of love.
 
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No.

There is zero legal reason whatsoever for local NHS Trust policy to deny gender information to any family, much less specifically Asian ones. It is a policy decision and a policy decision alone, usually taken by Trusts with a high Asian (particularly Indian, though not exclusively) population, and it dates back at least 20 years. It is not the law.
I'm going to be called stubborn but I see no problem with how I articulated myself. The beginning problem is based on the law. This is a measure that has come about based on the current law therefore what I have said is not incorrect. Does the law say "we can't tell you the sex of the baby because you're Asian" - no, and I never said that. Is the reason that we don't tell the sex based on a probable outcome that goes against the law (i.e will lead to illegal activity) - yes it is (and the possibility of litigation).

Famine
However, if you've ever been to one of those ultrasounds (and I have) you will know that even when they do give gender information they will say that it is not a 100% guarantee. And while it may be the policy of the Trust there's absolutely nothing stopping a family from taking a scan from a private concern and finding out the gender that way.
Private isn't NHS, which is why parents are told they can find this out privately. And for your second point you would have to guarantee that every sonographer tells every parent that there is no 100% guarantee. Can you see why Trusts might prefer to just blanket ban revealing to parents the gender? We bleed money through litigation. Just last week we were sued for £20000, almost the cost of a nurses salary for a year because of one patient's fall.

Trust's will always take the easiest option to avoid litigation.

Famine
The reasoning is actually a layer deeper than you present. It's not to prevent people getting abortions of female foetuses by denying them the information, but to prevent people from getting illegal abortions outside the conditions of an appropriate clinic. As you mention, "because it's a girl" isn't considered a valid reason for an NHS abortion - but that's nothing to do with anything because you don't have to give a reason. This concept of being asked why you want an abortion puts people off approaching the NHS anyway so they resort to less sterile approaches.
You have to give a reason by law. This has to be signed by two doctors. And you bring up a valid point about another reasoning behind the decisions but it is just that - another reason. We don't like sex selective abortions, and we don't like back street ones. Both are culled with one simple "policy".

Famine
I would counter-argue that it is far better for these families to abort female foetuses than, since they are clearly so uncaring of female children, making them keep it by denying them medical information they have a right to (and they do) and bringing a child into a world of abuse, neglect or, in a best case scenario, a complete absence of love.
Aaaand this is where I'm torn. It's not an easy decision, and by playing ignorant I think we can absolve ourselves of guilt but then we don't actually consider what the life will be like for the unwanted girl. Horrible, horrible situation.
 
I'm going to be called stubborn but I see no problem with how I articulated myself. The beginning problem is based on the law. This is a measure that has come about based on the current law therefore what I have said is not incorrect. Does the law say "we can't tell you the sex of the baby because you're Asian" - no, and I never said that. Is the reason that we don't tell the sex based on a probable outcome that goes against the law (i.e will lead to illegal activity) - yes it is (and the possibility of litigation).
But that is still a local policy, not a national one - nor a law. It's a Trust-by-Trust decision - and sometimes it might even be just a hospital's policy, not a Trust one.

There is no framework from on high that says gender information must be denied to future parents. There is no law that says "we can't tell you the sex of the baby", Asian or not.
Private isn't NHS, which is why parents are told they can find this out privately. And for your second point you would have to guarantee that every sonographer tells every parent that there is no 100% guarantee.
They do. They're required to and trained to. Why... well:
We bleed money through litigation.
All sonographers will say "It looks like you're having a little..." and then add that it's not a certainty, despite a 3D image showing a nob.

Even the private ones.
You have to give a reason by law. This has to be signed by two doctors.
Hmm, no not really - though I believe it's a requirement under the 1967 Abortion Act, the practice of it is quite different.

97% of all abortions in the UK cite "mental health" - continuing with the pregnancy would be damaging to the mother's mental state and, yes, this has to be signed off by two doctors. However you can literally ship up to Marie Stopes, say you don't want it and they'll sign off on it - your own GP doesn't ever have to know.
And you bring up a valid point about another reasoning behind the decisions but it is just that - another reason. We don't like sex selective abortions, and we don't like back street ones. Both are culled with one simple "policy".
Except that they aren't. As mentioned above you can just skip along to a private scan. They aren't very expensive and it's a drop in the ocean for a family that wants a boy and will abort a girl to go find out.

Which means that the NHS scan, by virtue of being useless to these families, is just a waste of resources. Not that anyone's ever said that about the NHS before.
Aaaand this is where I'm torn. It's not an easy decision, and by playing ignorant I think we can absolve ourselves of guilt but then we don't actually consider what the life will be like for the unwanted girl. Horrible, horrible situation.
But what we really see - yet again - is that the NHS is neither national nor actually about healthcare. It doesn't give patients the information they want, need and are actually entitled to have - but only in some Trusts and not others - leading them to seek out the private option and then, because the NHS route for abortion is cloyed by the same bureaucracy, seek out the private option again (either the good one or the one involving the uncle with the dry-cleaning business and a long flight of stairs) to deal with it if it's not what they were hoping for.

The NHS isn't the doctors, nurses, -graphers, HCAs, porters, cleaners, consultants that work in it and provide care. It's a bureaucratic framework that prevents them from doing their job the way they'd like to do it and actively hinders continuity of care. When we had our most recent child we saw four different sonographers in four appointments and never saw the same consultant twice in... I think five visits, including the actual surgery. The first time the woman who gave my wife her required C-section ever saw her was when she walked into theatre - and she never saw her face (business end only)...
 
I'm going to be called stubborn but I see no problem with how I articulated myself. The beginning problem is based on the law. This is a measure that has come about based on the current law therefore what I have said is not incorrect. Does the law say "we can't tell you the sex of the baby because you're Asian" - no, and I never said that. Is the reason that we don't tell the sex based on a probable outcome that goes against the law (i.e will lead to illegal activity) - yes it is (and the possibility of litigation).

So you advocate breaking the law (refusing to provide equal services based on someones race or religion) to stop a law that might not even be broken?

You see this is the issue with claiming that this is based in law, if the act itself is illegal and refusing to provide equal services based on someones race or religion most certainly is, then its not based in law.

A law is already in place to deal with this and should that law not be effective, then breaking other laws (all the while assuming that the party will actually break the law) is neither logical nor based in law.
 
But that is still a local policy, not a national one - nor a law. It's a Trust-by-Trust decision - and sometimes it might even be just a hospital's policy, not a Trust one.

There is no framework from on high that says gender information must be denied to future parents. There is no law that says "we can't tell you the sex of the baby", Asian or not.They do. They're required to and trained to.
Ever since Foundation Trusts became the in thing it's harder to get an NHS wide anything anymore.

Famine
Why... well:All sonographers will say "It looks like you're having a little..." and then add that it's not a certainty, despite a 3D image showing a nob.

Even the private ones.
No possible guarantee.

You would agree that a consultant Neurologist has more training than a sonographer right? Interesting story: My sister had 2 seizures New Years Eve and ended up in A+E. As part of a follow up, she was referred to the First Fit Clinic to be seen by a consultant neurologist. During the consultation she was told the excess alcohol likely caused the fitting and in her opinion it didn't actually sound like a real seizure. A few weeks later my sister received the letter sent to the GP from the neurologist as is standard practice in the NHS. In it was the line "I have advised Miss ****** about her responsibility to inform DVLA about her seizure and her subsequent fitness to drive".

At no point in the consultation was this ever brought up.

If a consultant neurologist can fail to bring up legal disclaimers, are you honestly saying the bean counters of Trusts are going to put their faith in every sonographer bringing up the disclaimer that it isn't 100% accurate? It's just too risky! Best get rid of it all together and send em private.

Famine
Hmm, no not really - though I believe it's a requirement under the 1967 Abortion Act, the practice of it is quite different.

97% of all abortions in the UK cite "mental health" - continuing with the pregnancy would be damaging to the mother's mental state and, yes, this has to be signed off by two doctors. However you can literally ship up to Marie Stopes, say you don't want it and they'll sign off on it - your own GP doesn't ever have to know.
These are all things I've said (lifestyle choices and how this is overlooked by HCPs). This is why we can't enforce it at that stage (where the parents know the gender of the baby), hence Trusts get in there earlier (scan stage).

Famine
Except that they aren't. As mentioned above you can just skip along to a private scan. They aren't very expensive and it's a drop in the ocean for a family that wants a boy and will abort a girl to go find out.
Which means that the NHS scan, by virtue of being useless to these families, is just a waste of resources. Not that anyone's ever said that about the NHS before.
Silly isn't it? We hope that the families don't go the private route but in reality no-one is overly bothered otherwise there would be a push for legislation.

Famine
But what we really see - yet again - is that the NHS is neither national nor actually about healthcare. It doesn't give patients the information they want, need and are actually entitled to have - but only in some Trusts and not others - leading them to seek out the private option and then, because the NHS route for abortion is cloyed by the same bureaucracy, seek out the private option again (either the good one or the one involving the uncle with the dry-cleaning business and a long flight of stairs) to deal with it if it's not what they were hoping for.

The NHS isn't the doctors, nurses, -graphers, HCAs, porters, cleaners, consultants that work in it and provide care. It's a bureaucratic framework that prevents them from doing their job the way they'd like to do it and actively hinders continuity of care. When we had our most recent child we saw four different sonographers in four appointments and never saw the same consultant twice in... I think five visits, including the actual surgery. The first time the woman who gave my wife her required C-section ever saw her was when she walked into theatre - and she never saw her face (business end only)...
The NHS is dead.

Workers, managers and educators know this. I think the public are cottoning on slowly too. I'd advise anyone in the UK to take out medical insurance, or be prepared to go private.

So you advocate breaking the law (refusing to provide equal services based on someones race or religion) to stop a law that might not even be broken?
I'll let you in on a little secret - we don't treat everyone equally. When your elder relative is admitted to a ward they will get the standard of care that we can provide with the staffing we have, which is a pretty shocking standard. If you are Asian or complain, we will give you preferential treatment to cover our backs.

Scaff
You see this is the issue with claiming that this is based in law, if the act itself is illegal and refusing to provide equal services based on someones race or religion most certainly is, then its not based in law.

A law is already in place to deal with this and should that law not be effective, then breaking other laws (all the while assuming that the party will actually break the law) is neither logical nor based in law.
I hoped this was explained in my response to Famine. The end result will never have a direct connection to a law, but the basis for its creation is in upholding the law as best as possible within the messed up world of everyone and their mother wanting an abortion for "mental reasons".

-----

To bring it back to the ghettos, I'm not sure if people fully appreciate how dangerous these places can be. Here is a link to a documentary on prisoners targeted for conversion to radical Islam. This is also a problem Stateside too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0444flh/panorama-from-jail-to-jihad
 
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I'll let you in on a little secret - we don't treat everyone equally. When your elder relative is admitted to a ward they will get the standard of care that we can provide with the staffing we have, which is a pretty shocking standard
Odd because the standard of care my Mother in Law was given for a heart attack two weeks ago was excellent, as was the treatment I had last week and today for my ear!

It would seem that you are once again taking your personal experiences and projecting them to be the norm again.

Now your also conflating the level of care driven by the patients needs and condition with offering a different standard of care based solely on a persons race and/or religion. The former is not what you are stating has a basis in law, the second is what you are claiming has a basis in law, not only doesn't it have a basis in law, but it is in itself illegal.

If you are Asian or complain, we will give you preferential treatment to cover our backs.
I'm not the first and I didn't do the second, explain my preferential treatment.


I hoped this was explained in my response to Famine. The end result will never have a direct connection to a law, but the basis for its creation is in upholding the law as best as possible within the messed up world of everyone and their mother wanting an abortion for "mental reasons".
That still doesn't give it a 'basis in law', not even close to one, as such you are still making what is clearly a misleading claim.


To bring it back to the ghettos, I'm not sure if people fully appreciate how dangerous these places can be. Here is a link to a documentary on prisoners targeted for conversion to radical Islam. This is also a problem Stateside too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0444flh/panorama-from-jail-to-jihad
So Leicester/Birmingham/Bradford/London have ghettos that are the same as the Lebanon and now are also jails? That people can and do get radicalized in jail is not exactly a huge surprise, they also lead to an increase in gang activity and membership and turn first-time inmates into repeat offenders with better criminal skills. Are the jails now also ghettos and our Lebanon now as well?

I'm beginning to think that you have seriously lost the plot on this now, given that the only other place I have seen leaps made on this nature are from Britain First and its associated groups.
 
Odd because the standard of care my Mother in Law was given for a heart attack two weeks ago was excellent, as was the treatment I had last week and today for my ear!

It would seem that you are once again taking your personal experiences and projecting them to be the norm again.
But that's what you're doing! You're taking personal, anecdotal experiences to dismiss my claims. For the record, I have worked in hospitals ranging from a suburban DGH (District General Hospital) to a London teaching hospital to a specialist heart hospital that takes everyone from the homeless to Premiership football managers (I won't go further as it may identify a patient). Your experience does nothing to counter my point: we give a certain standard of care to the elderly according to staffing levels. The only thing I would change is that it is usually a shocking standard. You've picked an example that will virtually always have a good staff to patient ratio! Let's take a look at your mother in law's presentation (please correct as you see fit as I'm generalizing since I don't have specifics):

She phones 999 with symptoms of an MI - that is 1 on 1 with a dispatcher.
This is a priority call, as such an ambulance aims to be there within a nationally agreed upon target. There is a first responder paramedic in a rapid response vehicle and 2 staff arrive shortly after with transport to the hospital. This is 3 on 1.
She is taken to A+E resus where there is a nurse per 2 patient, or 4 patients if stretched. Since it wasn't winter I will assume it's 2. This is 2 on 1.
ECG performed, Trop T test done and a diagnosis of "Query: Acute MI" is given. She is given drugs and taken for a PCI. This is 1 on 1.
Recovery ward she is placed in a bay for observation. There is a nurse for every bay. 4 on 1.
She is moved to CCU, where she stays until discharge. 4 on 1 again.

This is of course presuming she wasn't moved to a general medical ward, but I'd have to wait for more details from you to address that.

Let's take a more typical presentation:

Elderly man has a fall in a care home, with worsening confusion. Dispatcher downgrades the call since it is not a priority leading to a 2 and 1/2 wait for transport to hospital with a 2 man crew. 1 on 1, then 2 on 1.
Taken to A+E minors where the nursing staff is routinely pulled into majors so the average time spent with patients is pretty poor. In fact he'll be lucky to see much of the nurse before being taken to a ward to ease the strain on A+E. 5 on 1.
This patient is transferred to a ward before the bed is ready to be swapped. He bypasses AMU and is left in a corridor while the nurses handover. This practice is known as 'boarding' and is recommended by the RCEM (Royal College of Emergency Medicine). Zero nurse cover temporarily.
The patient is 'admitted' to the ward. I say 'admitted' because it's likely the full admission protocol won't be followed as there simply isn't enough staff to deal with the demands of the ward. It is a general medical ward, and has on average a 10 on 1 ratio.
Patient falls, misses meals and becomes dehydrated due to lack of fluid input.

NHS FTW!

Scaff
Now your also conflating the level of care driven by the patients needs and condition with offering a different standard of care based solely on a persons race and/or religion. The former is not what you are stating has a basis in law, the second is what you are claiming has a basis in law, not only doesn't it have a basis in law, but it is in itself illegal.
We know it's illegal, but the population is expecting us to work sometimes with 3 nurses for 36 patients (the last night shift on my ward) and treat everyone equally. THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE. We identify who is most likely to complain (pushy families, Asians as they are always on the ward and respect their elders much more than the indigenous) and give them preferential treatment so as to hide the fact that many wards are past breaking point. Complaints are bad. We get called into meetings for complaints and matrons can be changed because of them. One of the complaints we received was that staff were caught making a toast for themselves from the loaves reserved for the patients. Bear in mind a lot of us take reduced breaks in a 12 1/2 hour shift and frequently stay over our allotted shift time end.

The public don't care that NHS workers are little more than slaves.

If you want a report on Government findings on the state of care provision, look up the Francis Report

Scaff
I'm not the first and I didn't do the second, explain my preferential treatment.
I said "if your elderly relative". We are talking about elderly patients.

Scaff
That still doesn't give it a 'basis in law', not even close to one, as such you are still making what is clearly a misleading claim.
I was careful to never say "based in" (you said that not me) or has a "basis in" (again your words). I only ever said based on the law - it's a minor distinction but can change the meaning somewhat. If it makes everyone feel better should I say "based on statistics that suggest a more likely outcome of activity against the law"? I didn't realise I was writing a scientific paper.

Scaff
So Leicester/Birmingham/Bradford/London have ghettos that are the same as the Lebanon and now are also jails? That people can and do get radicalized in jail is not exactly a huge surprise, they also lead to an increase in gang activity and membership and turn first-time inmates into repeat offenders with better criminal skills. Are the jails now also ghettos and our Lebanon now as well?

I'm beginning to think that you have seriously lost the plot on this now, given that the only other place I have seen leaps made on this nature are from Britain First and its associated groups.
I.....er....what? You are dismissing this as well with personal attacks? Have you even watched the programme?

Straightforward question: Is this Country's most immediate threat from Islamism?

EDIT: Since you brought up Lebanon, I'm presuming in a reference to my suggestion of looking up the background of Islamic infiltration I'd also recommend reading about the Deobandi branch of Islam, since this accounts for the major proportion (near 1/2) of all mosques in the UK. I'd look up the "Silk Letter Conspiracy" and advise getting familiar with what Imams and scholars can believe. As an example:

Medina in Birmingham Najaf in Brent
Sheikh Ibrahim Mogra is the sort of imam with whom the British establishment feels relatively comfortable . He is involved in interfaith work; he gives talks that are sufficiently uncontroversial to appear on BBC Radio 4’ s Thought for the Day; and during the World Cup he drives round his adopted home of Leicester with a St George flag adorning his car. Elsewhere in Leicester another scholar, Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari, warns against excessive integration by advising followers to be polite to non-Muslims but not to take them as close friends. 1 Both men are the product of the Deobandi school of Islam and of its most important British institution, Darul Uloom al Arabiya al Islamiya, an Islamic seminary near Bury in Lancashire.

Or you can call me an impartial bigot who has lost the plot. (Well, someone else is more likely to say that)

It was also suggested by someone that all Bengalis needed to escape being a statistically proven 'drain' on society was even more help and understanding. Have a look at the latest news to come from the crook they were forced to vote in

http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk/home/rahman_passes_immoral_care_cuts_amid_outcry_1_3988772

Understand that you are dealing with village politics of Pakistan and Bangladesh before you come with your idealistic nonsense that such communities are a victim of governments ignoring them. As I say time and time again, all other minorities faced hardship. It's time for them to grow up.


The mayor’s promotion of programmes teaching immigrants their “mother tongue” instead of investing in English was criticised by Conservative councillor Andrew White, who accused him of failing

to promote community cohesion.

“There are 22 foreign languages spoken by residents but we are only teaching Bengali, Somali and Lebanese,” he

said.

“How is community cohesion served if we are only teaching language for three mother tongues?”

He recommended prioritising English language programmes.

But Cllr Rabina Khan responded with hostility, citing the slave trade and imperialism.

“Don’t lecture me about cohesion when you forget the history of this country,” she said.

“People in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh were not expected to ‘learn’ English. It was forced upon them and slaves.”
 
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But that's what you're doing! You're taking personal, anecdotal experiences to dismiss my claims. For the record, I have worked in hospitals ranging from a suburban DGH (District General Hospital) to a London teaching hospital to a specialist heart hospital that takes everyone from the homeless to Premiership football managers (I won't go further as it may identify a patient). Your experience does nothing to counter my point: we give a certain standard of care to the elderly according to staffing levels. The only thing I would change is that it is usually a shocking standard. You've picked an example that will virtually always have a good staff to patient ratio! Let's take a look at your mother in law's presentation (please correct as you see fit as I'm generalizing since I don't have specifics):

She phones 999 with symptoms of an MI - that is 1 on 1 with a dispatcher.
This is a priority call, as such an ambulance aims to be there within a nationally agreed upon target. There is a first responder paramedic in a rapid response vehicle and 2 staff arrive shortly after with transport to the hospital. This is 3 on 1.
She is taken to A+E resus where there is a nurse per 2 patient, or 4 patients if stretched. Since it wasn't winter I will assume it's 2. This is 2 on 1.
ECG performed, Trop T test done and a diagnosis of "Query: Acute MI" is given. She is given drugs and taken for a PCI. This is 1 on 1.
Recovery ward she is placed in a bay for observation. There is a nurse for every bay. 4 on 1.
She is moved to CCU, where she stays until discharge. 4 on 1 again.

This is of course presuming she wasn't moved to a general medical ward, but I'd have to wait for more details from you to address that.

Let's take a more typical presentation:

Elderly man has a fall in a care home, with worsening confusion. Dispatcher downgrades the call since it is not a priority leading to a 2 and 1/2 wait for transport to hospital with a 2 man crew. 1 on 1, then 2 on 1.
Taken to A+E minors where the nursing staff is routinely pulled into majors so the average time spent with patients is pretty poor. In fact he'll be lucky to see much of the nurse before being taken to a ward to ease the strain on A+E. 5 on 1.
This patient is transferred to a ward before the bed is ready to be swapped. He bypasses AMU and is left in a corridor while the nurses handover. This practice is known as 'boarding' and is recommended by the RCEM (Royal College of Emergency Medicine). Zero nurse cover temporarily.
The patient is 'admitted' to the ward. I say 'admitted' because it's likely the full admission protocol won't be followed as there simply isn't enough staff to deal with the demands of the ward. It is a general medical ward, and has on average a 10 on 1 ratio.
Patient falls, misses meals and becomes dehydrated due to lack of fluid input.

NHS FTW!

No I'm not doing the same, because I'm not projecting it onto the whole organisation.

I've not said that the experiences you have had are not real, nor have I said that they are not representative of the hospitals that you have worked in. What I am saying is that you can't take your experiences and project them onto every part of the NHS.


We know it's illegal, but the population is expecting us to work sometimes with 3 nurses for 36 patients (the last night shift on my ward) and treat everyone equally. THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE. We identify who is most likely to complain (pushy families, Asians as they are always on the ward and respect their elders much more than the indigenous) and give them preferential treatment so as to hide the fact that many wards are past breaking point. Complaints are bad. We get called into meetings for complaints and matrons can be changed because of them. One of the complaints we received was that staff were caught making a toast for themselves from the loaves reserved for the patients. Bear in mind a lot of us take reduced breaks in a 12 1/2 hour shift and frequently stay over our allotted shift time end.
If you know its illegal then it's clearly not based on law, but back to that in a minute.

I know full well how the NHS functions within quite a few areas of the country. Do you honestly think that no-one else has friends and/or family that works within the NHS?



The public don't care that NHS workers are little more than slaves.
Citation required.


I was careful to never say "based in" (you said that not me) or has a "basis in" (again your words). I only ever said based on the law - it's a minor distinction but can change the meaning somewhat. If it makes everyone feel better should I say "based on statistics that suggest a more likely outcome of activity against the law"? I didn't realise I was writing a scientific paper.
Its not based on the law either.

You are aware that its not legal to break the law because you think someone else may break the law? As such its not based on the law.



I.....er....what? You are dismissing this as well with personal attacks? Have you even watched the programme?

Straightforward question: Is this Country's most immediate threat from Islamism?
In my opinion, and looking at the country as a whole, no.


EDIT: Since you brought up Lebanon, I'm presuming in a reference to my suggestion of looking up the background of Islamic infiltration I'd also recommend reading about the Deobandi branch of Islam, since this accounts for the major proportion (near 1/2) of all mosques in the UK. I'd look up the "Silk Letter Conspiracy" and advise getting familiar with what Imams and scholars can believe. As an example:
I didn't bring up Lebanon, you did.


Or you can call me an impartial bigot who has lost the plot. (Well, someone else is more likely to say that)
See the other thread.

I do however have to say that for someone who makes a great deal out of complaining about others crying 'victim' you appear to be heading down the exact same path.

This comment adds nothing to the discussion, has no relevance to the person you are quoting (me) and makes inferences that you will do well to steer clear off from now.
 
No I'm not doing the same, because I'm not projecting it onto the whole organisation.

I've not said that the experiences you have had are not real, nor have I said that they are not representative of the hospitals that you have worked in. What I am saying is that you can't take your experiences and project them onto every part of the NHS.
That's fair enough you reach that conclusion based on your evidence - this isn't a fascist country. I'm happy that the Government (Francis Report), NMC (Response to Francis Report) and GMC (future Medical School curriculum changes) disagree with you.

Scaff
If you know its illegal then it's clearly not based on law, but back to that in a minute.
I'm confused. We are talking about legality on two separate things (abortion and treating everyone equally)

Scaff
Citation required.
It's called working a week on any medical ward in any NHS Trust hospital on the frontlines (Doctor, HCA, Nurse, Sister, Matron).

Scaff
Its not based on the law either.

You are aware that its not legal to break the law because you think someone else may break the law? As such its not based on the law.
Wait you're confusing the two arguments I think. One is talking about the legality of abortion (the conditions not met), the other is legality regarding equal treatment (elderly patients).

Scaff
In my opinion, and looking at the country as a whole, no.
Fair enough. Major cities across the country, and random homes in random towns losing their sons and daughters to ISIS may disagree with you but sure. What do you think is then? Russia? Economic instability?

Scaff
I didn't bring up Lebanon, you did.
Huh? As a history lesson? I don't remember saying the ghettos were like Lebanon. Palestine maybe.

------

I got a conundrum for anyone interested.

You are a concerned, white parent of a teenage, white girl living in London. You know that as the amount of Muslim taxi drivers has increased, the incidence of sexual assaults in cabs has increased (Met Police statistics). Let's ignore the female only cab services as it's a busy weekend and your daughter is in a rush. Would you a) request for a non-Muslim taxi driver from the cab company, b) request a cab and not discriminate on race/religion etc, c) another option. Your daughter, your knowledge, your choice.
 
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You are a concerned, white parent of a teenage, white girl living in London. You know that as the amount of Muslim taxi drivers has increased, the incidence of sexual assaults in cabs has increased (Met Police statistics). Let's ignore the female only cab services as it's a busy weekend and your daughter is in a rush. Would you a) request for a non-Muslim taxi driver from the cab company, b) request a cab and not discriminate on race/religion etc, c) another option. Your daughter, your knowledge, your choice.

Hang on, so only "brown" taxi drivers assault women? Oh, quite right. White people never commit sexual assault and illegal minicabbing never happened until we opened up the borders.

Puh-lease.
 
Hang on, so only "brown" taxi drivers assault women? Oh, quite right. White people never commit sexual assault and illegal minicabbing never happened until we opened up the borders.

Puh-lease.
Living in Swindon I can state for a fact that they do assault women.

Oh and B, I would however ensure I used a licensed cab service (and this is not based on speculation but on the week my daughter spent on work experience in London).

I'm confused. We are talking about legality on two separate things (abortion and treating everyone equally)
You may be, I'm not. I'm talking about your claim that withholding information from parents from certain backgrounds about the sex of an unborn child is based on law. Its not and you have failed to demonstrate that it is.


It's called working a week on any medical ward in any NHS Trust hospital on the frontlines (Doctor, HCA, Nurse, Sister, Matron).
Now lets look at this. You have made a claim that you seem so certain of that it was underlined and in bold, a claim that....

The public don't care that NHS workers are little more than slaves.

......and it turns out that its based on a claim that you speak for the entire NHS and woudl have had to meet every NHS patent to make such a claim. Tell me which member of staff were you that dealt with my mother in law? Were you the receptionist or the nurse that dealt with my ear last week and on Friday just gone?

Come to think of it how can you make a claim that would require me to not care that NHS workers are little more than slaves? That goes well beyond presumptuous.


Wait you're confusing the two arguments I think. One is talking about the legality of abortion (the conditions not met), the other is legality regarding equal treatment (elderly patients).
To repeat myself:

You may be, I'm not. I'm talking about your claim that withholding information from parents from certain backgrounds about the sex of an unborn child is based on law. Its not and you have failed to demonstrate that it is.


Fair enough. Major cities across the country, and random homes in random towns losing their sons and daughters to ISIS may disagree with you but sure. What do you think is then? Russia? Economic instability?
Sorry but based on what mandate do you speak for major cities across the country and the parents of people losing sons and daughters to ISIS?



Huh? As a history lesson? I don't remember saying the ghettos were like Lebanon. Palestine maybe.
My apologies I meant to say Palestine, and no maybe existed for you in the past:

It is taking its toll - I can't vent in public for fear of being labelled racist and I am genuinely scared for their future as this is a community relegated to an almost second life as they watch the world pass them by and become increasingly resentful of them (we've inadvertently created Palestine).

Oh and we haven't created Palestine,

You're right. We've created scores of them.

No maybe, no hint of doubt and its scores of them across the UK.
 
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Hang on, so only "brown" taxi drivers assault women? Oh, quite right. White people never commit sexual assault and illegal minicabbing never happened until we opened up the borders.

Puh-lease.
Point to where I said that. Go ahead. No, can't find it? Maybe I should add that this is how some of the victims of the grooming gang scandals were targeted and shuttled around cities (Muslim taxi drivers). Clear? Good let's move on shall we.

Living in Swindon I can state for a fact that they do assault women.

Oh and B, I would however ensure I used a licensed cab service (and this is not based on speculation but on the week my daughter spent on work experience in London).
Oh dear, another single case to back up an argument.

The correct answer for anyone not out of touch about living in London is c) use Uber. Any rape would be highly detrimental to their multinational business so you have a much lower chance of a scrupulous character, Muslim or not driving your family around. Safest bet you have with cabs (this is probably nationally now).

Scaff
You may be, I'm not. I'm talking about your claim that withholding information from parents from certain backgrounds about the sex of an unborn child is based on law. Its not and you have failed to demonstrate that it is.
Alright look, I'm not in the business of repeating myself. I don't know what else I can say. I explained my side and I why I don't believe I was wrong.

Scaff
Now lets look at this. You have made a claim that you seem so certain of that it was underlined and in bold, a claim that....

The public don't care that NHS workers are little more than slaves.

......and it turns out that its based on a claim that you speak for the entire NHS and woudl have had to meet every NHS patent to make such a claim. Tell me which member of staff were you that dealt with my mother in law? Were you the receptionist or the nurse that dealt with my ear last week and on Friday just gone?

Come to think of it how can you make a claim that would require me to not care that NHS workers are little more than slaves? That goes well beyond presumptuous.
Congratulations, you got me. I can't prove the unprovable. All the nonsense I deal with from the public and seniors because of the public is in my head.

If the public cared about our working conditions they would get private health insurance. As it is now they expect hotel like healthcare for their NI contribution. This comes at the expense of NHS workers quality of life. If you cared about my dedication you would go private - simple as that.

Scaff
Sorry but based on what mandate do you speak for major cities across the country and the parents of people losing sons and daughters to ISIS?
Major cities = the ghettos; parents = the kids I deal with saying their more secular parents beat them and Aunts and Uncles cry over them because they fear they are "going to Syria".

Scaff
No maybe, no hint of doubt and its scores of them across the UK.
You really have no clue what these places are like do you. It will take riots to make the public see I guess.

------------

I would like to ask, if 1400 Muslim girls were raped by gangs of white men in one bloody town, do you think the reaction would be the same. If you are honest with your answer then you will have to admit there is something wrong with what Britain has become.

This is the crux of my argument, and I want someone to answer me honestly. No ducking out of this one if anyone wants to continue apologising for a movement that has given us beheadings, flag burning, blown up buses, gender segregation, removal of dietary choice in menus, racial bullying, school curriculum changes, soldiers hacked in a London street, infringement on our freedom of speech, intimidation of the indigenous and migrant population, my local trust having the highest rate of FGM in London (120 in January alone), returning soldiers having to go into hiding, police being advised not to wear their uniform unless necessary then it really is your damn funeral. Don't expect any of your Islamist friends to turn up to it though.

If anyone wants to know the latest manifesto brought by the Muslim community to Parliament please find here:

http://muslimmanifesto2015.com/draft-muslim-manifesto/

We would ask our parliamentary friends to:

  1. Defend the right to a Muslim way of life, including halal meat; religious clothing; circumcision; and flexible working to accommodate Ramadan and festival observance.
  2. Oppose all forms of hate crime, including Muslim-hate, Anti-Semitism and all other types of racism, whilst also promoting and enhancing community safety.
  3. Promote good relations, understanding and cooperation between all of the UK’s communities.
  4. Support efforts to accurately remember Muslim and non-Muslim histories including oppressive and genocidal actions against Muslim peoples by British and European peoples.
  5. Commit to ethical British foreign policies that uphold the human rights of all peoples.
  6. Affirm the importance of faith schools within the overall provision.
  7. Support the provision of religiously and culturally sensitive youth and social care services.
  8. Promote a more just and sustainable future in the UK and abroad; supporting efforts to tackle poverty, environmental degradation including climate change, human rights abuses and the misuse of arms.
  9. Celebrate and support Muslim heritage and cultural institutions.
  10. Eliminate the root causes of institutional discrimination against Muslims and introduce tougher legislation to prevent it.
  11. Significantly reduce poverty in Muslim communities.
  12. Reduce higher than average unemployment in Muslim communities.
  13. Reverse rising criminalisation of Muslim youth.
  14. Boost secular educational attainment of Muslims in Britain.
  15. Significantly improve health and well-being in Muslim communities.
  16. Provide assurance and evidence that foreign funding is not causing/promoting violent extremism in the UK.
  17. Introduce more robust legislation to curb media hate campaigns against Muslims.
  18. Guarantee the Muslim community the opportunity to evolve independently of government social engineering programmes.
  19. Acknowledge that the holy scripture of Muslims (the Qur’an) does not endorse terrorism and the murder of innocents.
  20. Acknowledge and celebrate Muslim contributions to knowledge and civilization including European civilisation.
  21. Support all reasonable measures not to view Muslims with suspicion and through a security perspective.
  22. Encourage enquiry into the effects of oversexualisation of public spaces upon young people.
  23. Support the introduction of more rigorous and analytical religious education in all British schools that takes a balanced and critical approach to all the major world religions.
  24. Provide more holistic and relevant curriculums in schools with a high proportion of Muslims pupils.
  25. Support a holistic improvement of faith school education and stop the current securitization agenda.
  26. Support greater development of the Muslim arts and cultural sector to nurture more mainstream Muslim cultural leaders and role models.
  27. Allow Muslims greater access to decision-making processes in the security services.
  28. Recognise Muslims have a distinct ‘way of life’ (deen) which opposes any understanding of religion or faith as separate from other aspects of life.
  29. Withdraw all economic, military and other support for oppressive governments in Muslim and non-Muslim countries.
  30. Promote the positive shared Abrahamic history of Moorish, Christian and Jewish culture in Europe.
  31. Highlight and promote the Muslim Diaspora’s contribution to the British economy.
  32. Encourage the development of a 21st century Muslim ideological narrative conducive to living peacefully in the West whilst remaining true to the values of Islam.
  33. Oppose all unfair exploitation of resources owned by Muslim and non-Muslim countries.
Baby a section of the population and this is the results. Wake up.
 
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Oh dear, another single case to back up an argument.

The correct answer for anyone not out of touch about living in London is c) use Uber. Any rape would be highly detrimental to their multinational business so you have a much lower chance of a scrupulous character, Muslim or not driving your family around. Safest bet you have with cabs (this is probably nationally now).
I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to the point that attacks by cab drivers can occur from the white community (and uber is not always the answer either) with an example that is local to me.

I didn't reply directly to you for the simple reason that all you did was make a claim without any sourced evidnce and presented correlation as if it were causality.


Alright look, I'm not in the business of repeating myself. I don't know what else I can say. I explained my side and I why I don't believe I was wrong.
You made a factual claim, as such I expect you to be able to provide proof of it. Not exactly a big ask if its the fact you made it out to be.


Congratulations, you got me. I can't prove the unprovable. All the nonsense I deal with from the public and seniors because of the public is in my head.

If the public cared about our working conditions they would get private health insurance. As it is now they expect hotel like healthcare for their NI contribution. This comes at the expense of NHS workers quality of life. If you cared about my dedication you would go private - simple as that.
Then in future don't claim it as if it were fact and don't assume to speak for an entire organisation or group of people if you don't represent them.

The AUP is quite clear about making misleading claims, yet you seem to believe that this doesn't apply to you.


Major cities = the ghettos; parents = the kids I deal with saying their more secular parents beat them and Aunts and Uncles cry over them because they fear they are "going to Syria".
I don't see a mandate in that?



You really have no clue what these places are like do you. It will take riots to make the public see I guess.
And you're back to making assumptions about people.

The great thing here is that you, by your own admission, have not been to many of these places. They are nothing like Palestine, the one place that was like that (Belfast during the Troubles) I have already mentioned and I have been to that (as well as many of the areas of Leicester and Birmingham that have been mentioned), so yes I do have a clue what these areas are like.



I would like to ask, if 1400 Muslim girls were raped by gangs of white men in one bloody town, do you think the reaction would be the same. If you are honest with your answer then you will have to admit there is something wrong with what Britain has become.
The reaction from whom? Because the general reaction that I have seen is that of abject horror at what as happened and a call for those who carried out the attacks to be held accountable and those who covered up the attacks to be held accountable.

Is that wrong?



This is the crux of my argument, and I want someone to answer me honestly. No ducking out of this one if anyone wants to continue apologising for a movement that has given us beheadings, flag burning, blown up buses, gender segregation, removal of dietary choice in menus, racial bullying, school curriculum changes, soldiers hacked in a London street, infringement on our freedom of speech, intimidation of the indigenous and migrant population, my local trust having the highest rate of FGM in London (120 in January alone), returning soldiers having to go into hiding, police being advised not to wear their uniform unless necessary then it really is your damn funeral.
I'm sorry who has been an apologist for any of this here?


Don't expect any of your Islamist friends to turn up to it though.
Define Islamist.


If anyone wants to know the latest manifesto brought by the Muslim community to Parliament please find here:

http://muslimmanifesto2015.com/draft-muslim-manifesto/

We would ask our parliamentary friends to:

  1. Defend the right to a Muslim way of life, including halal meat; religious clothing; circumcision; and flexible working to accommodate Ramadan and festival observance.
  2. Oppose all forms of hate crime, including Muslim-hate, Anti-Semitism and all other types of racism, whilst also promoting and enhancing community safety.
  3. Promote good relations, understanding and cooperation between all of the UK’s communities.
  4. Support efforts to accurately remember Muslim and non-Muslim histories including oppressive and genocidal actions against Muslim peoples by British and European peoples.
  5. Commit to ethical British foreign policies that uphold the human rights of all peoples.
  6. Affirm the importance of faith schools within the overall provision.
  7. Support the provision of religiously and culturally sensitive youth and social care services.
  8. Promote a more just and sustainable future in the UK and abroad; supporting efforts to tackle poverty, environmental degradation including climate change, human rights abuses and the misuse of arms.
  9. Celebrate and support Muslim heritage and cultural institutions.
  10. Eliminate the root causes of institutional discrimination against Muslims and introduce tougher legislation to prevent it.
  11. Significantly reduce poverty in Muslim communities.
  12. Reduce higher than average unemployment in Muslim communities.
  13. Reverse rising criminalisation of Muslim youth.
  14. Boost secular educational attainment of Muslims in Britain.
  15. Significantly improve health and well-being in Muslim communities.
  16. Provide assurance and evidence that foreign funding is not causing/promoting violent extremism in the UK.
  17. Introduce more robust legislation to curb media hate campaigns against Muslims.
  18. Guarantee the Muslim community the opportunity to evolve independently of government social engineering programmes.
  19. Acknowledge that the holy scripture of Muslims (the Qur’an) does not endorse terrorism and the murder of innocents.
  20. Acknowledge and celebrate Muslim contributions to knowledge and civilization including European civilisation.
  21. Support all reasonable measures not to view Muslims with suspicion and through a security perspective.
  22. Encourage enquiry into the effects of oversexualisation of public spaces upon young people.
  23. Support the introduction of more rigorous and analytical religious education in all British schools that takes a balanced and critical approach to all the major world religions.
  24. Provide more holistic and relevant curriculums in schools with a high proportion of Muslims pupils.
  25. Support a holistic improvement of faith school education and stop the current securitization agenda.
  26. Support greater development of the Muslim arts and cultural sector to nurture more mainstream Muslim cultural leaders and role models.
  27. Allow Muslims greater access to decision-making processes in the security services.
  28. Recognise Muslims have a distinct ‘way of life’ (deen) which opposes any understanding of religion or faith as separate from other aspects of life.
  29. Withdraw all economic, military and other support for oppressive governments in Muslim and non-Muslim countries.
  30. Promote the positive shared Abrahamic history of Moorish, Christian and Jewish culture in Europe.
  31. Highlight and promote the Muslim Diaspora’s contribution to the British economy.
  32. Encourage the development of a 21st century Muslim ideological narrative conducive to living peacefully in the West whilst remaining true to the values of Islam.
  33. Oppose all unfair exploitation of resources owned by Muslim and non-Muslim countries.
Baby a section of the population and this is the results. Wake up.

Some of those are quite reasonable, around a third of them are identical to the Jewish Manifesto and a number of them I object to on the ground that faith and state should be separate (but again are not much different to the views of other faiths).

I have to say I'm not exactly sure what is so terrifying about "Encourage the development of a 21st century Muslim ideological narrative conducive to living peacefully in the West whilst remaining true to the values of Islam." for example. It scares you that part of the Muslim Manifesto is to develop a 21st century form of Islam that encourages peace?

Quite frankly as long as anyone following Islam does so without impacting on the rights of any other person I don't have an issue (and to go further you can replace Islam with any other faith or group), you it seems do.

I take it you will also be having a good moan about how we have babied the Jewish and Christian sections of the population (they both have manifestos after all) and how we need to wake up to that?
 
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Let's call a stalemate. I have a girl going into a quasi-arranged marriage texting me and the very real possibility that I will have to work 13 hours tomorrow with a half hour break and my hearts not in this any-more.

The only thing I will reply to is the Uber thing. Everyone should consider it for their female relatives. Yes you posted a link to an Uber rapist in India. So far zero have made the headlines for the whole of England, whereas there were over 50 reported rapes in London alone in cabs for a year in the noughties.

It is well worth considering.

Also the Muslim manifesto event was organised by Azad Ali. Yes him.
 
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The public don't care that NHS workers are little more than slaves.

Slaves can't quit if they're not cut out for it. Is the information listed on this website accurate? http://www.rcn.org.uk/support/pay_and_conditions/pay_rates_2014-15

Congratulations, you got me. I can't prove the unprovable. All the nonsense I deal with from the public and seniors because of the public is in my head

You are not every healthcare worker in the country.

If the public cared about our working conditions they would get private health insurance. As it is now they expect hotel like healthcare for their NI contribution. This comes at the expense of NHS workers quality of life. If you cared about my dedication you would go private - simple as that.

That is utterly ridiculous.

I am a member of the public, I pay around nearly £10,000 a year in income tax, I spend nearly all of what I earn, and much of what I buy has value added tax of 20% on it, not to mention additional taxes on Beer and Fuel (that constitutes a surprising amount of expenditure :D), I've worked my ass off for 15 years to get to the equivalent of a Band 7 payscale (6 days a week for most of it, less holidays in the past 8 years than anyone taking 1 year of their full annual holiday allowance, working from 6 am to mid-night if necessary - because that's one of the things it takes to make an SME successful), and one of our rewards as a successful company is to give a large chunk of our profits to the government by way of corporation tax (I would estimate about £132,000 over the last year).

... one of the things I expect from the government, in return for all this money they get from me/us, is a reasonable standard of basic healthcare. Personally I don't think that is unreasonable, and so far, thankfully, I can count my visits to hospital on one hand, and that includes being born. And, as it happens I pay for BUPA too.

the tl;dr of all that is, STOP applying your micro to the macro. Your perception does not equal everyone's reality.
 
one of the things I expect from the government, in return for all this money they get from me/us, is a reasonable standard of basic healthcare.
It's a pity then that they provide you with a bloated, resource-glutton system of bureaucracy that actually hinders patient care then, really.

That you can pay some of your money each month and not have to spend money on a hip replacement or chemotherapy isn't the NHS. That you have to wait 6-18 months for the hip replacement and four months to start cancer treatment is exactly what the NHS is about.
 
Slaves can't quit if they're not cut out for it. Is the information listed on this website accurate? http://www.rcn.org.uk/support/pay_and_conditions/pay_rates_2014-15
Yes. I make half of what those guys who say "Mind the Gap" on TFL make at the moment. When I'm a Core Training doctor (step up from Junior Doctor) I'll still make less than a TFL train driver.

MatskiMonk
You are not every healthcare worker in the country.
If you want a good indicator of how widespread my view is consider this: Last year the Royal College of Midwifes took industrial action for the first time in their 133 year history.

Frankly we're sick of working as slaves, and sick of being treated as such. I speak to Midwifes doing bank/agency shifts all the time and it is borderline madness in maternity units. We JUST. CAN'T. COPE.

MatskiMonk
That is utterly ridiculous.
I invite you to observe a medical ward shift. I can get the necessary clearance.

MatskiMonk
I am a member of the public, I pay around nearly £10,000 a year in income tax, I spend nearly all of what I earn, and much of what I buy has value added tax of 20% on it, not to mention additional taxes on Beer and Fuel (that constitutes a surprising amount of expenditure :D), I've worked my ass off for 15 years to get to the equivalent of a Band 7 payscale (6 days a week for most of it, less holidays in the past 8 years than anyone taking 1 year of their full annual holiday allowance, working from 6 am to mid-night if necessary - because that's one of the things it takes to make an SME successful), and one of our rewards as a successful company is to give a large chunk of our profits to the government by way of corporation tax (I would estimate about £132,000 over the last year).

... one of the things I expect from the government, in return for all this money they get from me/us, is a reasonable standard of basic healthcare. Personally I don't think that is unreasonable, and so far, thankfully, I can count my visits to hospital on one hand, and that includes being born. And, as it happens I pay for BUPA too.
You deserve that, but you won't get it because too many people don't contribute like you do, and we have to treat them equally. You are a big provider but a minimal user: congratulations. Don't expect anyone to give a damn when you sidle onto an endocrine ward and we're dealing with a recent immigrant with a DKA or an Eastern European suffering DTs from alcohol withdrawal.

Do you know how much it sucks to have to put such patients ahead of patients who burned half their body flying in a Lancaster that had to crash land - an accident that he was the only survivor of. I'd say he contributed more to this Country than you, and yet because of the NHS I will have to give priority to the immigrant who has paid close to zero into the system just because he complains to the Ward Sister about the slightest thing he can find about our provision of care. Then there's the patient who says "don't mind me, I know your busy" who you later found out spent all his life teaching state school kids from a wheelchair because he was left disabled by a botched NHS operation.

I laugh at your childish expectations and envy having such an innocent view of the world.

MatskiMonk
the tl;dr of all that is, STOP applying your micro to the macro. Your perception does not equal everyone's reality.
Lol no thanks. I back up my statements with facts that are conveniently ignored. I suppose unions don't count as 'everyone' anymore.

*I use immigrants a lot in this post because my hospital is one of the most ethnically diverse in the Country. In reality the biggest "drain" on NHS resources is poor social care caused by neglect of the elderly after disintegration of the family by the White-British.

-------

I know I was going to cool it from this thread but because healthcare is a passion of mine I don't mind talking about it. As it stands the Country needs weaning off the NHS (everyone knows the NHS is changing - we are focusing in the coming years on community care to lessen the strain on primary (GP) and specialist (hospital) care. What do you guys think of this proposal to start the ball rolling?

The NHS provides coverage for everything up to 25, and for any conditions that are diagnosed before 25 for the rest of your life. Past 25 you have to also hold private medical insurance. This covers everything else in your life post 25, including social care once you lose capacity to even pay premiums. We could also add in additional subsidies in the form of penalties to make everyone appreciate the service, like a fiver for a DNA (Did Not Attend) or a contribution if you are admitted to A+E because of alcohol intoxication. This system would reduce the amount you pay through taxes (it gets rid of costly conditions associated with ageing - by FAR the biggest taker of money) and introduce Britain to the world of most other healthcare systems (they have universal, but it is more complicated than a one size NHS model).
 
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It's a pity then that they provide you with a bloated, resource-glutton system of bureaucracy that actually hinders patient care then, really.

That you can pay some of your money each month and not have to spend money on a hip replacement or chemotherapy isn't the NHS. That you have to wait 6-18 months for the hip replacement and four months to start cancer treatment is exactly what the NHS is about.

One of the reasons why our company has been so successful has been thanks to it's move into Healthcare and Pharmaceutical markets, the reason why it was a successful move, was because we arrived with a background of supplying the automotive industry - low margins - constant price pressure - terrible payers... we arrived in the healthcare market with a cost plus approach, because that's how automotive works... turns out we accidentally massively undercut our competitors who charge market price. I don't know what the NHS spends on consumables, but much, much richer people than me acknowledge that it's the cash cow to milk so even that one facet I get to see tells me something is wrong, but then I compare my limited experience with the NHS and I don't see the issues you're talking about. Between my visits to A&E for stupid injuries, my Mums's visits for Lymphoma, Diabetes and Arthritis, and my Grandma's recent nosedive thanks to dementia I mostly can't fault what I've seen. Is it perfect? Nope. Is it better than nothing... Yes, by a very very long way, I get to see how bad it can be in other parts of Europe! It can't do everything for everybody, and a culture of providing ones self with further healthcare should be encouraged, I totally believe this, not just for healthcare, but in all aspects.. old age, child care etc. etc.

Yes. I make half of what those guys who say "Mind the Gap" on TFL make at the moment. When I'm a Core Training doctor (step up from Junior Doctor) I'll still make less than a TFL train driver.

If you want a good indicator of how widespread my view is consider this: Last year the Royal College of Midwifes took industrial action for the first time in their 133 year history.

Frankly we're sick of working as slaves, and sick of being treated as such.

And? Don't like it, go say "Mind the Gap" all day, or learn to drive a train,... contrary to what you and your colleagues seem to think, you are not slaves. You have the right, and the choice to go and do something different. I am not saying it's right and if I got to allocate where my tax money went I wouldn't mind if more of it went to people working in Hospitals - but that isn't the case.

I speak to Midwifes doing bank/agency shifts all the time and it is borderline madness in maternity units. We JUST. CAN'T. COPE.

Show me the piece of paper that says benefits paid to families with two parents and more than 1 child would instead go to supplement the NHS and I'll sign it. You are saying you can't cope, I don't think anyone is saying you are lying, but you seem to be targetting a very small percentage of the population as the cause, simply because it's the majority within your area.

I invite you to observe a medical ward shift. I can get the necessary clearance.

Did you even read what I replied to? Stating that (to paraphrase) if we cared we go private is simply retarded. Apply that to everything that you spend money on, and see how stupid it is. You don't "care about" the person unless you are spending as much as possible on their service? You must be a riot in the supermarket, or local restaurant, or pub, or infact anywhere that charges a market value.

You deserve that, but you won't get it because too many people don't contribute like you do, and we have to treat them equally. You are a big provider but a minimal user: congratulations. Don't expect anyone to give a damn when you sidle onto an endocrine ward and we're dealing with a recent immigrant with a DKA or an Eastern European suffering DTs from alcohol withdrawal.

Simply answer me this. In terms of total man hours, does the NHS spend more time treating immigrants or natives? Actually, I see you answer this with your last point, it's the Elderly, neglected by the natives. So most likely, if I'm neglected it's because my demented Gran has got into the bath with her electric blanket on. Besides which, I'm quite likely to go and find some southeastern Europeans and crack open a bottle of Palinca to combat the DT's.

Do you know how much it sucks to have to put such patients ahead of patients who burned half their body flying in a Lancaster that had to crash land - an accident that he was the only survivor of. I'd say he contributed more to this Country than you, and yet because of the NHS I will have to give priority to the immigrant who has paid close to zero into the system just because he complains to the Ward Sister about the slightest thing he can find about our provision of care. Then there's the patient who says "don't mind me, I know your busy" who you later found out spent all his life teaching state school kids from a wheelchair because he was left disabled by a botched NHS operation.

I didn't see anyone in this thread say the system is perfect, and I doubt anyone is questioning the emotion behind what you are saying, probably just the way you are applying it to the entire country. But a system has to have rules. Mostly my Gran didn't pay into the system either, since 'back then' women stayed at home and did the housework - so what does the system do to differentiate her from Johnny the Pole.

I laugh at your childish expectations and envy having such an innocent view of the world.

Trust me, there is nothing to envy, I make money when we (as a nation) stockpile supplies in case of chemical weapon and dirty bomb attacks, I make money when in some ****hole warzone soldiers lay dying with no real medical attention and not much but the freezing-cold desert moon for company. I make money when people get sick, when they have personal bits of themselves removed, when they're on medication, drugs and treatments. I've had family members directly affected by terrorist actions of people that have the same colour skin as me, that speak my language, that also celebrate Christmas the way I do. I've paid out of my own pocket for loved ones to have operations because their situation has not been as fortunate as mine, and they can't fall back on the NHS.

... my expectation is that the government correctly appropriates funds in order to provide a reasonable standard of basic healthcare. If you think that it is a childish expectation (irrespective of what is actual delivered) of an organisation that recieves a hundred billion pounds a year from public money then I'd say you've been blinded by your own self-centric martyrdom.

Lol no thanks. I back up my statements with facts that are conveniently ignored. I suppose unions don't count as 'everyone' anymore.

Slaves have unions now? Slavery isn't what it used to be.



___



Since I often can't be bothered to maintain arguments on forums these days, I'll just finish my saying that in my first response to you in this thread, I agreed there are problems, and I agree, mostly these issues need addressing, but I still think your assessment of the overall situation is narrow-minded, however broad you personal experience may be.
 
I compare my limited experience with the NHS and I don't see the issues you're talking about. Between my visits to A&E for stupid injuries, my Mums's visits for Lymphoma, Diabetes and Arthritis, and my Grandma's recent nosedive thanks to dementia I mostly can't fault what I've seen.
That's because you're looking at the healthcare professionals and being impressed by them. They would be as good in any system, so to credit the NHS with what they're doing is not apt.

What you need to look at is cost and continuity of care. You mention four chronic conditions in your list there - conditions where the patient will be repeatedly going back to hospital in order to receive treatment or palliative care. In those circumstances, how often do you they get to see the same person they saw last time - compared to seeing someone they've never seen before whose only knowledge of their case and indeed entire medical history is what's written in a folder (by someone else who'd never seen them before)? Unless it's a vanishingly rare condition with a single specialist consultant in the trust, I'd wager "not many" - as I mentioned, the woman who was elbows deep in my wife's abdomen not only never saw her before that moment, but never saw her face at all and was one of four or five different obs/gynae consultants we saw in nine months.
Is it perfect? Nope. Is it better than nothing... Yes, by a very very long way
That's not really a sound argument either - it's not like the only alternative to tax-funded healthcare is nothing!
It can't do everything for everybody, and a culture of providing ones self with further healthcare should be encouraged, I totally believe this, not just for healthcare, but in all aspects.. old age, child care etc. etc.
Yes it should. With no concept of how much your own healthcare costs there is no motivation to give it any value - or live your life according to the value you give it.
 
One of the reasons why our company has been so successful has been thanks to it's move into Healthcare and Pharmaceutical markets, the reason why it was a successful move, was because we arrived with a background of supplying the automotive industry - low margins - constant price pressure - terrible payers... we arrived in the healthcare market with a cost plus approach, because that's how automotive works... turns out we accidentally massively undercut our competitors who charge market price. I don't know what the NHS spends on consumables, but much, much richer people than me acknowledge that it's the cash cow to milk so even that one facet I get to see tells me something is wrong, but then I compare my limited experience with the NHS and I don't see the issues you're talking about. Between my visits to A&E for stupid injuries, my Mums's visits for Lymphoma, Diabetes and Arthritis, and my Grandma's recent nosedive thanks to dementia I mostly can't fault what I've seen. Is it perfect? Nope. Is it better than nothing... Yes, by a very very long way, I get to see how bad it can be in other parts of Europe! It can't do everything for everybody, and a culture of providing ones self with further healthcare should be encouraged, I totally believe this, not just for healthcare, but in all aspects.. old age, child care etc. etc.



And? Don't like it, go say "Mind the Gap" all day, or learn to drive a train,... contrary to what you and your colleagues seem to think, you are not slaves. You have the right, and the choice to go and do something different. I am not saying it's right and if I got to allocate where my tax money went I wouldn't mind if more of it went to people working in Hospitals - but that isn't the case.



Show me the piece of paper that says benefits paid to families with two parents and more than 1 child would instead go to supplement the NHS and I'll sign it. You are saying you can't cope, I don't think anyone is saying you are lying, but you seem to be targetting a very small percentage of the population as the cause, simply because it's the majority within your area.



Did you even read what I replied to? Stating that (to paraphrase) if we cared we go private is simply retarded. Apply that to everything that you spend money on, and see how stupid it is. You don't "care about" the person unless you are spending as much as possible on their service? You must be a riot in the supermarket, or local restaurant, or pub, or infact anywhere that charges a market value.



Simply answer me this. In terms of total man hours, does the NHS spend more time treating immigrants or natives? Actually, I see you answer this with your last point, it's the Elderly, neglected by the natives. So most likely, if I'm neglected it's because my demented Gran has got into the bath with her electric blanket on. Besides which, I'm quite likely to go and find some southeastern Europeans and crack open a bottle of Palinca to combat the DT's.



I didn't see anyone in this thread say the system is perfect, and I doubt anyone is questioning the emotion behind what you are saying, probably just the way you are applying it to the entire country. But a system has to have rules. Mostly my Gran didn't pay into the system either, since 'back then' women stayed at home and did the housework - so what does the system do to differentiate her from Johnny the Pole.



Trust me, there is nothing to envy, I make money when we (as a nation) stockpile supplies in case of chemical weapon and dirty bomb attacks, I make money when in some ****hole warzone soldiers lay dying with no real medical attention and not much but the freezing-cold desert moon for company. I make money when people get sick, when they have personal bits of themselves removed, when they're on medication, drugs and treatments. I've had family members directly affected by terrorist actions of people that have the same colour skin as me, that speak my language, that also celebrate Christmas the way I do. I've paid out of my own pocket for loved ones to have operations because their situation has not been as fortunate as mine, and they can't fall back on the NHS.

... my expectation is that the government correctly appropriates funds in order to provide a reasonable standard of basic healthcare. If you think that it is a childish expectation (irrespective of what is actual delivered) of an organisation that recieves a hundred billion pounds a year from public money then I'd say you've been blinded by your own self-centric martyrdom.



Slaves have unions now? Slavery isn't what it used to be.



___



Since I often can't be bothered to maintain arguments on forums these days, I'll just finish my saying that in my first response to you in this thread, I agreed there are problems, and I agree, mostly these issues need addressing, but I still think your assessment of the overall situation is narrow-minded, however broad you personal experience may be.
You and your relatives are the type of patients we want to provide the service we are trained for but because of government and their laziness with the nhs we simply can't. I know you said if we don't like it become train drivers but that's simply not an option for us because a lot of us entered healthcare for reasons other than money. There is an alternative that will mean HCPs don't have to be treated like slaves and stop our future medics wanting to leave the country before they even qualify. This will have to be extensive and come pretty soon. Another winter like we just had would be a wake up call.
 
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