Britain - The Official Thread

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How will you vote in the 2024 UK General Election?

  • Conservative Party

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Labour Party

    Votes: 14 48.3%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Other (Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland)

    Votes: 1 3.4%
  • Other Independents

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other Parties

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Spoiled Ballot

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Will Not/Cannot Vote

    Votes: 8 27.6%

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
I'm not sure what you mean about "standing up". If you suddenly find yourself to be a member of a war cabinet it's hard to wrestle your leader to the ground without hard evidence against the case for war.

Had they known at the time that the WMD report had been massaged there might have been more internal opposition but hindsight is 20/20. It sounds like you were saying those members of his cabinet who disagreed with him should have been openly disloyal and fought it out in the commons instead of resigning.

Why would they? The case for war was made based on the intelligence available. The fact that the intelligence was faulty wasn't known at the time. Are they to magically read something in it differently?

Maybe I should say 'questioning' rather than 'standing up'.

Yes what turned out to be inaccurate intelligence was presented to the cabinet and this was what they acted upon but the criticism is that the cabinet should have not taken the intelligence presented to them at face value with such ease. You are about to invade a country, is no one questioning the evidence?, seriously assessing the severity of doing this regardless of what they know to be true?

They let Blair all too easily roll into Iraq because he believed in Bush's mission, it is the cabinets job to challenge or at least offer some grounded guidance/judgement rather than simply being yes men.
 
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I must admit I haven't read any of the report but from the bits and bobs I've heard on the news it tells people nothing that they didn't know already.
If you went down the pub last week you would have heard most of what I've heard from Chilcot from Dave the plumber who has a vague interest in politics.

They needed this report for what? To confirm what people knew already?
 
So when do Tony Blair and his chief dossier sexer-upper Alastair Campbell go to prison?

Interesting to note that Robin Cook and Charles Kennedy both suddenly died, just like David Kelly...
 
So when do Tony Blair and his chief dossier sexer-upper Alastair Campbell go to prison?

Interesting to note that Robin Cook and Charles Kennedy both suddenly died, just like David Kelly...
I don't think the report is in the nature of a criminal indictment. However, Blair may be subject to a civil suit from the parents of deceased soldiers.

Personally, I have long ago condemned Blair in harsh terms, and today I'm running low on invective. It's really up to you guys to judge him and do with him what you will. Best of luck, Blair is slick.
 
Maybe I should say 'questioning' rather than 'standing up'.

Yes what turned out to be inaccurate intelligence was presented to the cabinet and this was what they acted upon but the criticism is that the cabinet should have not taken the intelligence presented to them at face value with such ease. You are about to invade a country, is no one questioning the evidence?, seriously assessing the severity of doing this regardless of what they know to be true?

They let Blair all too easily roll into Iraq because he believed in Bush's mission, it is the cabinets job to challenge or at least offer some grounded guidance/judgement rather than simply being yes men.
Again. With stunning 20-20 HINDSIGHT yes the intelligence was wrong. Now find a time machine and tell them that. You can only make decisions on WHAT YOU KNOW. If it is wrong, you are not magically going to see that it is wrong at the time.
 
Yes, if all they'd heard was

Well I wasn't going to quote everything I have heard on radio, the BBC, itv etc.

But what I was getting at was if there were any major revelations they would have been on the news. As I say all of what I have heard was fairly common knowledge already.

Has it unearthed anything we didn't know previously?
 
Well I wasn't going to quote everything I have heard on radio, the BBC, itv etc.

But what I was getting at was if there were any major revelations they would have been on the news. As I say all of what I have heard was fairly common knowledge already.

Has it unearthed anything we didn't know previously?
So far it hasn't seemed to do that. But it has apparently strongly confirmed what was already known or suspected. It is a damning report and in no uncertain terms.
 
Well I wasn't going to quote everything I have heard on radio, the BBC, itv etc.

But what I was getting at was if there were any major revelations they would have been on the news. As I say all of what I have heard was fairly common knowledge already.

Has it unearthed anything we didn't know previously?

Came across a bit in a Guardian article which I thought summed up the significance/importance of the report quite nicely:

Some will say that none of this is really new, that Chilcot simply repeated everything the critics had said about this war from the beginning. But that means a lot. This was the voice of the establishment, not a placard at a demo or a trenchant Guardian column. The Chilcot report is the official judgement on the 2003 invasion. For those who stood against the war, including the families of those who lost their lives, that represents belated vindication. For Blair it means a verdict that damns him for the ages.
 
Why did Britain involve itself in the Iraq(fake)war anyway?

Your guess is as good as anyone else's?

steve1.jpg


That's why.
 
There's a precedence for this. Someone went to gaol for a joke about April Jones, the missing-and-murdered Machynlleth girl.
 
So, in the UK you can now get fined for "Banter".

Man gets fined for Hillsborough Disaster t-shirt

It's a bit of an arse thing to do... but seriously, getting charged for it? The legendary British sense of humour is a threat!
When looking at the guy's actions with any serious awareness, one would have to say that he was (at least) temporarily acting atrociously & needs to learn not to be a dick?
Should that mean that he's acted criminally by trying & massively failing to be funny?
I'd prefer not to treat it as a crime & just hope that the rest of society tells him he's being a dick & that if he stops that, we'll give him another chance.
 
When looking at the guy's actions with any serious awareness, one would have to say that he was (at least) temporarily acting atrociously & needs to learn not to be a dick?
Should that mean that he's acted criminally by trying & massively failing to be funny?
I'd prefer not to treat it as a crime & just hope that the rest of society tells him he's being a dick & that if he stops that, we'll give him another chance.

Point taken... but behaving in a way that you know is going to create a great deal of hostility is, rightly, an offence. His actions constituted incitement as he notes himself.
 
Point taken... but behaving in a way that you know is going to create a great deal of hostility is, rightly, an offence.
Does that mean that protesting in Parliament Square should still be an offence (it was for a period)? It leads to hostility just as speaking in the House of Commons does.
[Edit: A better example would be participating in any political campaign or arguing any point anywhere, ever.]
His actions constituted incitement as he notes himself.
Perhaps, but is he a legal expert?
 
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Does that mean that protesting in Parliament Square should still be an offence (it was for a period)? It leads to hostility just as speaking in the House of Commons does.

That's really a separate issue, I think. As I understood it that was a "security" measure. If one is going to protest in a way that is likely to be seen as genuine incitement then of course that should be an offence.

Perhaps, but is he a legal expert?

Does he need to be? If you go into a pub near Liverpool shortly after the Hillsborough verdict wearing a t-shirt which claims that the disaster was God's way of helping Rentokil then shouldn't you be responsible for your idiocy or lack of foresight?

"Le Bants" hasn't been made an offence as was claimed. His actions were stupid.
 
[Edit: A better example would be participating in any political campaign or arguing any point anywhere, ever.]
Only if they come into your local pub to do it, it sounds like.
 
Straw poll:

In light of "Mother" Theresa May's apparent confirmation on Wednesday, do you:

- Think the current "choose a party, that party chooses its own leader" process is fair?
- Want a general election in light of that at all?

Major and Brown were two other "unelected" Prime Ministers.
 
So before the euro vote I had the for and against brigade knocking on my door handing me leaflets which went straight in the bin with a bugger off please and don't come back no politicians tell the truth in my eyes.

I was wondering how other people have taken the decision on a personal level I mean what difference has it made for them personally because it has made no difference to me at all not a jot.
Or am I thinking about this to early after the vote to notice any changes yet.

To be honest when I hear about the pound is up or down and interest rates up/down what difference does it actually make to you personally as it makes no difference to my life at all.
I can't see what all the fuss is about.
I heard one bloke saying we will be ruined now we are out? really why is someone going steal everything in the country shops, pubs, doctors, hospitals, Sandwich shops, petrol stations, dentists etc No so what difference does it make on a personal level.
 
If you look at the Big Ben, the clock looks stopped. But you know it is moving.

It's a bit like that. Nothing happens fast, especially in a country that has a sound economy (In Greece it took only 6 months of irresponsability to make people face real hardship. In my country it would be one year I guess).

But if you think ahed you know much is at stake. Take Port Talbot as an example, because those were already like a microcosmos of an economy on the verge. Will anybody now invest in the British Steel industry? Well, my guess is that YOU (if you are a taxpayer) will.

Even then, you won't realize if you are better or worse, because the space time continuum won't let you see how you'd be if IN had won. And whatever speculative scenarios may be presented, they'll always be that: speculative. So ... play the game in the board that was given to you and good luck.
 
If you look at the Big Ben, the clock looks stopped. But you know it is moving.

It's a bit like that. Nothing happens fast, especially in a country that has a sound economy (In Greece it took only 6 months of irresponsability to make people face real hardship. In my country it would be one year I guess).

But if you think ahed you know much is at stake. Take Port Talbot as an example, because those were already like a microcosmos of an economy on the verge. Will anybody now invest in the British Steel industry? Well, my guess is that YOU (if you are a taxpayer) will.

Even then, you won't realize if you are better or worse, because the space time continuum won't let you see how you'd be if IN had won. And whatever speculative scenarios may be presented, they'll always be that: speculative. So ... play the game in the board that was given to you and good luck.

Only thing I ever invested in is my house and my cars and stuff for myself in England we are use to having a load of our wage robbed off us before we get it and know it is squandered on mostly rubbish the government call it tax and national insurance then with what we are left with from our wage we buy what we want and pay more tax on everything we buy then we have to pay council tax to have our bin emptied and to have a bloke mow the lawn at the local churchyard and a bit is chucked in to the police force so they can ignore you when you need them and abuse you when you don't.
As for british steel I haven't got a clue unless the government stop giving my wage/tax to there banker mates to play monopoly with and use it to keep a british business alive and men employed and profitable then I guess that's ok by me but on a personal level I won't know as my tax has gone before I see my wage so it won't make a jot of difference to me.

I think England has a reputation of being wonderful I know one of my friends who is rode island born and bred did but it isn't really it is a bit pants even worse in some places suppose it is how you view it and who you ask.
My Rode Island friend stayed over here for 2 months with a view to moving here permanently but then gave up on it as she couldn't believe how much tax we pay, the price of fuel made her ill and the price of property she was gobsmacked at so she went back home to live in Rode Island and drive a 4 litre convertible to Boston to work everyday and paid as much in fuel as I do to go to the next town and back. 69% of the price of fuel in the uk is tax, averages about £1.17 a litre of petrol. The most expensive in the whole of Europe.
On play the game I totally agree I don't think anyone knows what's going to happen next week never mind next year I just know I will keep plodding on buying my shopping and enjoy doing what I do personally and not worrying if some sap in Europe doesn't like the way we do business or some sap in government is flapping about a ftse whatever it is.
On a personal level it makes no difference to me and my family, can't see why it should bother anyone.
 
It could potentially make a huge difference to a huge number of people's lives, mainly with regards to employment (many businesses may move jobs abroad, people may find it harder to come to the UK and get jobs there or move to the EU and get jobs there); but also on many other levels. What happens to British nationals living in the EU, or to EU citizens living in the UK? What happens to British citizens whose partners are EU citizens? Will they be forcibly separated from their families? All of these questions are still wide open at the moment, and many are understandably worried.

The drop in the value of the pound will make the cost of living more expensive for many, while the end of EU investment could cut off a lifeline for many of Britain's poorest communities. The economic outcomes will hit everyone to some degree.

And then beyond that, on a cultural level, Britain's stock has been greatly devalued. Where once many saw sophisticated Great Britain, many now see only bigoted Little England. That's not necessarily an accurate viewpoint, but it's one that sticks. Many who voted Remain now feel detached from their national identity, ashamed to be associated with those racist fringes by their country alone.

Meanwhile, Britain, as of Wednesday, the UK will have a Prime Minister with very little accountability. Theresa May quietly opposed brexit, giving her an immediate scapegoat for anything which goes wrong under her leadership. Meanwhile, her apparent belief that the UK should leave the European Convention on Human Rights is absolutely terrifying.

Overall, the UK has a completely dysfunctional political system propped up by a barely democratic electoral system and a horribly misinformed public. If that weren't the case leaving the EU wouldn't necessarily be a particularly bad thing (although I'd personally struggle to argue in favour of it), but with that being the case, it seems a recipe for disaster.
 
"Mother" Theresa May
Although I understand what you're getting at regarding her apparent saintliness this might be a rather unfortunate choice of nickname given recent events surrounding her and her husband's inability to have children.
 
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