British Built, American Powered! Arash AF10

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harrytuttle
How exactly do they suffer? The Saleen S7 gets rave reviews from what I can see. From what I can tell, the companies of the past who have used American V8s are more likely poorly run or marketed. DeTomaso's problems were hardly related to the engine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Tomaso
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Tomaso
You misunderstand. Most people in the exotic car marketplace could care less whether the engine is reliable. The want an exotic, revvy engine. Not a V8. That is why the Pantera failed. And it had nothing to do with the Italian steel. It had to do with the overall build quality and oil embargo. Besides, on the Pantera alone their are multiple factual errors in that article.
 
Caution: long post, many examples, manic poster, fool on the loose.

Toronado
You misunderstand. Most people in the exotic car marketplace could care less whether the engine is reliable. The want an exotic, revvy engine. Not a V8. That is why the Pantera failed. And it had nothing to do with the Italian steel. It had to do with the overall build quality and oil embargo.

Yeah, I'm definitely misunderstanding, because while I admit that the Marcos and Ultima cars have sales in the single digits, I was under the impression that the Saleen was an exception. Isn't it pretty much selling out year after year? Isn't the Koenigsegg sold out? Wasn't that why they are on their third iteration?

But I do understand that the appeal of 7-liter V8 "supercars" is quite limited. However, I think the reasoning is more complex than just having an American muscle car engine. Generally, LS*-equipped cars are sold by companies that do not have the financial backing of Lamborghini or Ferrari. Marcos was run poorly (all three times) and the car was not the best handler since the engine overpowered the chassis. The Ultima is two hex bolts shy of being a kit car. The DeTomaso debacle even became associated with MG/Rover, which didn't end well, to say the least.

There's other companies who've used engines that are exotic and still don't attain the recognition they might have gotten had their cars not been shoddy or if circumstances been different. Mega used a Mercedes V12, and went nowhere. Pagani used a Mercedes V12, and is now considered a real contender. The difference? The rest of the car, not the engine.

Even Mercedes' own SLR McLaren essentially uses a modified AMG 5.5L supercharged engine. Does that make the car any less exotic or special? Even when half the cars in Greenwich, CT, are **55 AMG's?

Lister, the former Jaguar tuner, made the Storm out of a highly modified Jaguar V12. Sales? About 4. The reason was the price was too high for what was considered an unknown supercar maker, but at least they made it to Gran Turismo 2. A few years later Steve Saleen does the exact same thing. So far 48 cars have been delivered, with quite a bit of a waiting list still to go.

TVR makes a great inline-6, and are one of the few small-scale manufacturers able to make their own engines. But their sales are so low they had to temporarily close one of the factories. Why? Their reputation of reliability was poor, and the cars were too uncompromising for most people. For the same price, they could have the wonderful 911 C4S, and often do.

Spyker uses an Audi V8 and has a fantastic look. No clue why their sales are stagnant.

Vector's semi-exotic V12 and aeronautical engineering didn't save them worth a damn.

Noble uses a rather common, if highly modified, Ford V6. They may actually be able to enter the US market soon.

Yamha had a very cool 3.5L V12 in the OX99-11 (the most remembered "forgotten" supercar), but its problems were everything but the engine.

It's not the engine, but what you do with it that matters (don't read into that any more than the obvious). The chassis, the interior, the styling, the whole package of the car. Like I said, low budgets and US V8's generally go together for companies that create low-volume cars, mostly because the engine is cheap. But there are those that succeeded in spite of that engine, and those that failed miserably even with bespoke engines.

---------

As for whether people care that their exotics are reliable or not, I can give plenty of evidence to the contrary. The few people I know that own 70's and 80's Italian icons (308GTS, F456, 25th Anniversary Countach, a few others) generally don't drive them. It's all semi-rolling sculpture as far as they're concerned. The cars are beatiful, but the term "expensive to own" exists for a reason. These cars need a lot of maintenance if you expect to drive it like a similar-era Porsche or 60's muscle car. The demand for such older supercars is all about rose-tinted glasses and delusions of emulating Thomas Magnum.

Then of course there's the NSX. It's a victim of some rather unrealistic expectations on Honda's part, since they hardly updated the car, but it's initial sales year was quite high for something that was essentially a competitor of the F348. It kicked the entire supercar segment in the rear, forcing them to create reliable cars.

And then Ferrari sales began to rise again.... Sure, nowadays, Ferrari is all the rage, Lamborghini is poster material again, and the NSX is being phased out with no guaranteed replacement, but it took the Italians 15 years and a lot of effort to get to this point.


Toronado
Besides, on the Pantera alone their are multiple factual errors in that article.

Like what? No, really: what's wrong with the article? Because I can't find anything else that contradicts the Wiki article. If something's wrong with a Wiki article, sign up & fix it, provided you can back it up.
 
^^^ Very good post, and now that you have explained yourself completely, you are both right in your respective ways.

Most folks would probably take the Thurston J. Howell III approach when it comes to American power in their $200+K supercars, as it is a bit too "uncivilized" for their tastes. Reliability be damned, it isn't an all-out performer like something that came from Italy or Germany.

I guess it is kinda hard to explain from my point of view. Granted, if it works, it works. The S7 is so stupidly fast that it doesn't matter, and I find it funny that most folks don't have a problem with it's NASCAR-derrived V8. But get into something like a GT, and people have a problem with it sharing an engine with the SVT Lightning.

Some people care, some people don't. Whatever. As long as it is fast and somewhat reliable, I give the AF10 kudos. For $200K, even with the American V8, it is still a good deal if it can match the S7 or Mosler MT900S.
 
While you are very very right, harrytuttle, there is a few problems with your view:
No American company in particular was mentioned. Now I know that might not have been the point you were going for, but saying "Mercedes V12" as in Pagani is better in many exotic car cliente than "American V8," if only because of the snob appeal about American cars.
Vector as a company failed because the car that they actually produced was far overrated. And the M12 was hardly anything more than an overpriced Lamborghini (nor was it in any way and American car), so that really doesn't count anyways.
Lister and it's Storm were designed from the start to make large amounts of money to pay off the tooling costs if only 3 cars were sold. 4 were sold, and the price of the 4th was all profit because of it.
Noble's are little more than kit cars (in my eyes), and hardly count as exotics regardless as they are mostly used as track cars.
I point not only to DeTamaso at being a failure at "American" supercar, but also at Vector and Shelby.
Now I agree that in most cars the fact that sales stagnate is hardly due to the engine, but in pretty much every American supercar they have. DeTamaso sold nearly 5000 cars in four years when they cost $10,000. As soon as Ford pulled out and prices went up to other Italian car levels, sales went down to 1000 cars from 1974 to 1994 when he car ended production. Granted, when Ford pulled out they also ended U.S. distribution, but that is also my point: Europeans are not willing to pay Ferrari prices for things that are not Ferrari exotic. The S7 is the exception to the rule, but I'm quite sure it loses sales due to it's powerplant as well, because I've seen some overly biased views against the car.
The Ford GT is another example. It sold well, but all many Europeans did was complain about the engine noise, and power delivery, supercharger whine and other such crap. Part of the reason it sold well was because it cost considerably less than it's real rivals.
Yet another example is the Shelby Series 1. It was fast as hell, and had a relatively smooth drivetrain. But it cost the same as a 360 Modena. Even if it was just as fast, it still had that stigma.
The NSX was another example. In the curves, nothing could touch it. But because it was short on power and had a V6, for the last 5 years of it's life it was ridiculed.
harrytuttle
Like what? No, really: what's wrong with the article?
The date it the car stopped being manafactured for one. The reason for it being another. They were going to build the Pantera, in the form of the Pantera 200, alongside the Guara, but the worldwide recesion of 1994 that killed pretty much every supercar killed the Pantera. They stopped selling them in 1994.






Now, let me set this straight: I'm fine with this "ARASH" car. I think it looks cool. But I think, for the price they are selling it at, they are commiting bankruptcy before one even leaves the lot. You could probably buy a 599GTB for $240,000. So why would they buy this? It may be fast, but many people will look at the drivetrain and blow it off. And that's not even mentioning the far cheaper Corvette Z06 and Mosler which will likely be identically fast.
 
harrytuttle
TVR makes a great inline-6, and are one of the few small-scale manufacturers able to make their own engines. But their sales are so low they had to temporarily close one of the factories. Why? Their reputation of reliability was poor, and the cars were too uncompromising for most people. For the same price, they could have the wonderful 911 C4S, and often do.
I agree with your general reasoning in your post but I just have to point out that whatever has lead you to this conclusion is missinformation, the factory is not closed becaseu they arn't making enough models, it's closed because they're moving into a new factory that will handle being able to build more cars per week. They are also a lot cheaper than the wonderful 911 C4S and the bottom spec TVR's that are half the price of the C4S are faster than the C4S. Build quality is an issue, reliability isn't but it was in the past. TVR's normally do sell out, but right now is a big time for TVR and for TVR buyers because the Cerbera replacment is looming on the horizon and is expected to appear next year, the Cerbera is the biggest selling TVR ever by a long shot, so a lot of people have been waiting for he erplacment rather than buying a T350 or Tuscan 2 now which has affected TVR sales ut not in a company crippling way, they are still moving into the new factory and production re-starts with updated models later this year or early next year, they have overproduced cars recently so theyhopefully won't run out of new cars to sell in that time period.
 
It's clever, but it looks like something that was designed in Photoshop to look pretty, not like something that can be a car.

And besides, the LS7 is hand built in Kentucky, it's not as common as one would think. So with GM's incredibly crappy situation with money as it sits, I don't think they would build the LS7 for some other company.

But that's just my .02¢
 
Roo09511
And besides, the LS7 is hand built in Kentucky, it's not as common as one would think. So with GM's incredibly crappy situation with money as it sits, I don't think they would build the LS7 for some other company.

Ummm, the Chevrolet LS7 is hand built at the GM High Performance Build Center in Wixom, Michigan. Yes, the cars themselves are built in Bowling Green, Kentucky, but all of the engines have almost always been built back in Detroit or Windsor.

The LS7 is actually available for purchase through any Chevrolet dealer that is part of the GM High Performance network, or you can also buy the engine from Jegs or Summit racing parts as well. Retail pricing on the engine is $12999.99 in the May/June 2006 Jegs catalog that I have right here, page 25-K if you care to look.

GM usually builds the engines for anyone who wants them, as it keeps the workers busy. But really, who wouldn't want them to power their next supercar? I wondering how long it will be until Mosler ditches the LS6 in the MT900S and moves up to the LS7 that allready starts off with an extra 45 BHP over the standard model.
 
A lot of what engine is chosen comes down to the feel and attitude of the car that the makers want to create. Making a car isn't as simple as that engine seems okay, and this part seems good value ect, a V8 has certain charecteristics an inline 6, V6, V10 and a V12 don't, and likewise for the other engines, they have character traits a V8 doesn't have, theres a lot more to character traits than the cylinder configuration ofcourse, but thats one aspect of choosing an engine, what character you want the car to have, some cars definitely benefit from the glorious sound of a well tuned V12 while other from the rumble of a V8 and then some from the rather unique roar of well tuned an inline 6.
 
$12999.99 HOLY CRAP! lol



Well oh, I thought it was a Corvette only thing (and yeah, I get the Bowling Green plant mixed a lot... dammit, gotta work on that).
 
Hey, don't worry about it, mistakes happen.

I'll give you a secret: Check out the Wikipedia, there is a lot of valueable information to be found there. I know I've learned a lot about models I could generally care less about, as well as the names for different parts and where they are made, etc.
 
Well on the bright side if I ever have $13k laying around I can always shoehorn one into sometihng like a Sprinter Tureno.... Come to think of it, that would be quite the badass car...


Back on topic, I kinda hope this thing goes to production, but it's a tad expensive.
 
By comparison to cars like the Saleen S7 and Mosler MT900S, $200K is actually a fairly reasonable price. But if the performance isn't that great, I'd be worried about the cheaper Porsche 911 Turbo and even it's quasi-relative the Corvette Z06 eating up it's performance.
 
YSSMAN
But if the performance isn't that great, I'd be worried about the cheaper Porsche 911 Turbo and even it's quasi-relative the Corvette Z06 eating up it's performance.
Especially considering early reviews of the 911 Turbo have been calling it the best and fastest car Porsche has ever built that wasn't simply a homologation special (but not including the 959), barring (and only maybe) the Carrera GT.
 
Car and Driver's estimated numbers pegged it right at the benchmark left by the Corvette Z06, and given that estimates are often wrong, it is probably faster overall.
 
Toronado
Especially considering early reviews of the 911 Turbo have been calling it the best and fastest car Porsche has ever built that wasn't simply a homologation special (but not including the 959), barring (and only maybe) the Carrera GT.
It IS faster than the 959, the 959 was built in the 80's, a lot of modern Porsches would beat it in a race.
 
live4speed
It IS faster than the 959, the 959 was built in the 80's, a lot of modern Porsches would beat it in a race.
I probably should have worded it better. I meant it is faster than the 959, but not faster than other homologation specials such as the 911 GT1 or GT3 RS.
 
It's faster than the last gen GT3 RS too, including it's record lap round the Ring, we don't know how fast the 997 GT3 RS is yet. The new wave of 911's are certainly a force to be reckoned with, oh anf the 997 GT3 is faster than the 996 GT3 RS round the Ring too.
 
Porsche are plain crazy in a good way. I dont see how they manage to squeeze so much performance out of so little.
 
STLbarcelona5
In the words of Jeremy Clarkson.

"That's not a car, that's just pornography."
Isn't that only allowed for the Jaguar E-Type, Aston Martin DB5, Alfa Romeo Berra and Aston Martin DB9? Anyway I could see the Arash AF10 racing in the FIA GT.
 
TVR&Ferrari_Fan
Isn't that only allowed for the Jaguar E-Type, Aston Martin DB5, Alfa Romeo Berra and Aston Martin DB9? Anyway I could see the Arash AF10 racing in the FIA GT.
Can't be for the DB9. Too many people complain about the treatment of the rear end. The DB7, however...
 
I need an LS7 powered car.

It's plenty exotic in my eyes, I've listened to Ferrari V-12's idle, Dino V-6's scream, BMW M3's GOWMP! on down the road.

The whomp whomp of a 7 liter engine just has magical appeal too it.

7k Rpm of 427 is fun by any standard.

Yeah, the Corvette get's panned overseas because they don't like our insistence on using stuff that works, like the leaf springs.

If you notice though, I've never heard a single complaint about the engine, it's docile and quiet at cruising speed, and it's a roaring lion when you want it to be.

I can think of few better engines to build a car around these days.

For the money they're asking though...I have three letters and three numbers, 599 GTB.
 
Onikaze
For the money they're asking though...I have three letters and three numbers, 599 GTB.

But doesn't the 599 GTB push the $300K mark? I thought the F430 was the "value" Ferrari at just over $200K?
 
YSSMAN
But doesn't the 599 GTB push the $300K mark? I thought the F430 was the "value" Ferrari at just over $200K?
It's supposed to sell for 240K over here. I can't honestly want one of these if I could get one of those. And the F430 I beleive is closer to 150K.
 
You're right Tornado. I forgot that all the "good" options cost outrageous sums of money, and that most of the test-models come fully-loaded.
 
I call 620 Hp 6.0 Liter V-12's in an awesome handling chassis with an appropriately odd looking Ferrari body on it, value.

The F430 is great, but if I wanted a V-8 Ferrari it would have to be the fully stripped, barely legal CS.
 
ferraris' probably have a bit of a markup, and if you ordered one now you would have to wait 2-3 years for it to arrive.
 
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