Buick or Pontiac Must Go?

[Solid Lifters]

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P112987.asp?GT1=6301

More trouble for GM. Wow, these guys can really screw things up. Asleep at the wheel again.

 

[skip0110]

Excellent, just after they invested in new vehicles for these two brands (LaCrosse, G6, Rendezvous/Aztek, and the Northstar/LS1 powered Pontiacs).

 

[Ev0]

Well, when you make mediocre cars, expect poor sales. At least GM is starting to turn around though; Cadillac as we all know is doing very well now, and the Solstice looks very promising (finally, a performance car from GM's 'Performance' division...).

But I'd wager Buick won't be going out of business. They're selling very well in China right now, since they have a very strong history there from the pre-communism era.

 

[a6m5]

Buicks are one of the worst cars on the road today. Everytime I see one, they are topping out before they reach the posted speed. They are also very bad handling cars. Usually drivers must slow down to about 5 mph to take an corner. Lastly, they are very dangerous. I see them trying to ram into other vehicles. I'm not sure if it's due to the large blind spots or some sort of faulty brakes or steering, but I try not to get close to one. Behind the wheel in Buicks are usually very experienced drivers(age 70 - 150), but even they have hard time handling those cars.

I like Pontiacs. They do come out with silly/ugly cars sometimes, but I think they deserve another chance. Just change the GTOs' name to something else(cool car, but doens't strike me as an GTO IMO) and bring back the "Grand Am" name to their sedan.


P.S. Whatever happened to Oldsmobile? Are they still around?

 

[Emohawk]

I think Olds got the axe several years back.
If one of the two has to go, I vote Buick.
...And Saturn, GMC, and Vauxhall.

 

[McLaren]

IT might be Buick. Pontiac has already released a crap load of cars recently and still have a more.

But I don't mind both at all.

 

[a6m5]

I think Olds got the axe several years back.
If one of the two has to go, I vote Buick.

Yeah, you're right. I guess GM decided on Olds' fate back in 2000, I think they got phased out last year. I feel sad for Oldsmobile and I can't believe Pontiac or Buick might face the same fate.

...And Saturn, GMC, and Vauxhall.

Saturn is an unique company and they make unique looking cars. I like them.

 

[McLaren]

Yeah, you're right. I guess GM decided on Olds' fate back in 2000, I think they got phased out last year. I feel sad for Oldsmobile and I can't believe Pontiac or Buick might face the same fate.

Saturn is an unique company and they make unique looking cars. I like them.

Agreed.

The VUE Redline is terribly underrated as is the Ion Redline, which I owned a 2004 model in black. 👍
Nice pickup for a company that made "granny cars."

 

[MrktMkr1986]

You should have put this in the Stock Exchange thread...

In my opinion, Buick is more likely to go than Pontiac. Pontiac has both the GTO and the new Solstice to help boost sales.

GM's stock price collapsed on March 16th, falling as low as $27.98 the following day.

Good thing I sold it before that happened. Analysts EPS trends were a big help.

 

[The359]

Buicks are one of the worst cars on the road today. Everytime I see one, they are topping out before they reach the posted speed. They are also very bad handling cars. Usually drivers must slow down to about 5 mph to take an corner. Lastly, they are very dangerous. I see them trying to ram into other vehicles. I'm not sure if it's due to the large blind spots or some sort of faulty brakes or steering, but I try not to get close to one. Behind the wheel in Buicks are usually very experienced drivers(age 70 - 150), but even they have hard time handling those cars.

Ugh, worst opinion ever...

Most of the Buicks in their fleet have the same Supercharged V6 as the Pontiac Grand Prix. So if you think they're having trouble reaching speed limits, you're on something. And considering most of them share most of the suspension work from the Grand Prix and Bonneville, then you'd know that they handle nearly as well. And no, their brakes and steering are not faulty either.

I've worked at a Buick dealership and I drove these vehicles on a daily basis. There's nothing wrong with the cars themselves, especially for the group they cater to.

Saturn is no longer unique, however due to that they're also the least likely to be killed off by GM. GM has poured a lot of money into Saturn and is trying to turn them into an upscale brand, in fact almost on par with Buick.

 

[bone324]

Saturn is no longer unique, however due to that they're also the least likely to be killed off by GM. GM has poured a lot of money into Saturn and is trying to turn them into an upscale brand, in fact almost on par with Buick.

Yeah, Saturn was started as a "different" kind of car company. It had it's own engines, chassis, everything. It was supposed to compete against the Japanese. Now, they share architecture and engines with every other GM brand. They've taken the place of Olds. There is a market for crappy cars, just not 5 different brands of the SAME crappy cars. I can't see them abandoning Pontiac or Saturn yet. I put my money on Buick dying next.

 

[a6m5]

Ugh, worst opinion ever...

Sorry 359, it was a joke. Almost everytime I see Buicks, there's an senior citizen behind the wheel, driving nervously, doing 10-15mph under the speed limit. I always get stuck behind one, when I'm in a hurry.

I actually like Buicks. It was a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Saturn is no longer unique, however due to that they're also the least likely to be killed off by GM. GM has poured a lot of money into Saturn and is trying to turn them into an upscale brand, in fact almost on par with Buick.

When I say "unique" company, I'm referring to way they sell their cars. Something I noticed about Saturns are that they go at their own pace. You don't see them challenging Camry/Accord to an deathmatch like Taurus/Malibu/Lumina/Spirit(Dodge) and all the others. Also, as everybody knows, they have set prices on their cars, so while you won't get killer deals on them, you won't get ripped off either. Until Scion came along, I think Saturn was the only company operating this way in North America.

On their cars, I said unique "looking" cars. I've never driven an Saturn and don't know anything about them either. I'm just saying Saturn cars has unique designs and I like them!

 

[Emohawk]

Several of you have stated my reason for axing Saturn now, although you think it's a reason not to.
Saturn no longer is what it started as. If I recall correctly, it was not only supposed to compete with Japanese cars, but do so in the Japanese market. It didn't. Now their reimaging is just sucking up money that could have been spent on Pontiac.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Several of you have stated my reason for axing Saturn now, although you think it's a reason not to.
Saturn no longer is what it started as. If I recall correctly, it was not only supposed to compete with Japanese cars, but do so in the Japanese market. It didn't. Now their reimaging is just sucking up money that could have been spent on Pontiac.

Saturn is selling more cars than Buick, though.

 

[1X83Z]

P.S. Whatever happened to Oldsmobile? Are they still around?

Oldsmobile was canned after 2004; their last car was the Alero.

The VUE Redline is terribly underrated

Why? All it is is a Vue V6 with a couple body mods. It's a damn joke. The star of that line is the Vue V6 - the Vue Redline is like the Lancer OZ Rally: all show, no extra go.

Most of the Buicks in their fleet have the same Supercharged V6 as the Pontiac Grand Prix. So if you think they're having trouble reaching speed limits, you're on something. And considering most of them share most of the suspension work from the Grand Prix and Bonneville, then you'd know that they handle nearly as well. And no, their brakes and steering are not faulty either.

I've worked at a Buick dealership and I drove these vehicles on a daily basis. There's nothing wrong with the cars themselves, especially for the group they cater to.

Saturn is no longer unique, however due to that they're also the least likely to be killed off by GM. GM has poured a lot of money into Saturn and is trying to turn them into an upscale brand, in fact almost on par with Buick.

I agree with all of what you said to an absurd extent except the parts highlighted in red. Most Buicks do not offer the supercharged 3.8 and to suggest Saturn is moving up to Buick level is to completely overestimate Saturn and totally underestimate Buick. Basically, it's totally wrong. Otherwise, spot-on. I love Buicks, I agree that Saturn is no longer unique, and I definitely agree Buicks have no faulty parts (they're actually super-reliable, as much of GM is these days).

Buick would go before Pontiac, but neither will fall anytime soon.

 

[a6m5]

it was not only supposed to compete with Japanese cars, but do so in the Japanese market. It didn't. Now their reimaging is just sucking up money that could have been spent on Pontiac.

I forgot about that. That went really well, didn't it?

 

[bone324]

Several of you have stated my reason for axing Saturn now, although you think it's a reason not to.
Saturn no longer is what it started as. If I recall correctly, it was not only supposed to compete with Japanese cars, but do so in the Japanese market. It didn't. Now their reimaging is just sucking up money that could have been spent on Pontiac.

I think Saturn AND Buick should die. Cadillac has the luxury segment covered. Chevy can do vanilla and fleet sales (and the Vette). GMC and Chevy can handle all the SUV and truck sales. Pontiac COULD be the performance division they're supposed to be. There's no place for Buick, and Saturn is just competing against Chevy and Pontiac. And I recently drove a Saturn VUE Redline. It's nowhere near "upmarket". In fact, it was the cheapest interior I've EVER seen. I've driven Kias with nicer interiors. I also wasn't impressed with it's performance. I just think Saturn is too new and GM won't kill it off so quickly.

 

[1X83Z]

I think Saturn AND Buick should die. Cadillac has the luxury segment covered. Chevy can do vanilla and fleet sales (and the Vette). GMC and Chevy can handle all the SUV and truck sales. Pontiac COULD be the performance division they're supposed to be. There's no place for Buick, and Saturn is just competing against Chevy and Pontiac. And I recently drove a Saturn VUE Redline. It's nowhere near "upmarket". In fact, it was the cheapest interior I've EVER seen. I've driven Kias with nicer interiors. I also wasn't impressed with it's performance. I just think Saturn is too new and GM won't kill it off so quickly.

You're missing the point. They should make the divisions compete. Audi doesn't go out of business because BMW exists, they compete instead. Same deal.

Insulting the Vue V6's performance is a lost cause since it's the second-quickest small SUV ever produced and in Red Line form it handles somewhat well also. The interior may be cheap but I prefer features to a cheap interior, as does the buying public, car enthusiasts aside.

 

[a6m5]

Audi doesn't go out of business because BMW exists, they compete instead. Same deal.

Isn't that Audi and VW?

 

[1X83Z]

Isn't that Audi and VW?

No, you missed the point too. Assumably, if GM couldn't allow brands to "overlap", it would cancel all competing brands. But that would mean, by that "logic", that there would only be one brand in each segment, GM or not. Competition breeds profit, so GM needs to make their brands compete, just as two rival manufacturers would. The goal should not be to develop Buicks less because Cadillac holds that segment, it should be Buick and Cadillac jointly develop a car that can smash the competition.

 

[a6m5]

Ah, ok. I thought you were talking about two companies by same ownership. Sorry about that!

P.S. VWs' and Audis' products overlap quite a bit too though. Especially with some VW going bigger and Audis' smaller.

 

[1X83Z]

Supposedly Volkswagen is aiming for Mercedes and Audi for BMW. Which is stupid since the average American buyer sees little difference between Mercedes and BMW. Volkswagen should be the upscale Toyota...

 

[a6m5]

Supposedly Volkswagen is aiming for Mercedes and Audi for BMW. Which is stupid since the average American buyer sees little difference between Mercedes and BMW. Volkswagen should be the upscale Toyota...

Volkswagen aiming for Mercedes? I don't see it either. I agree that VW should be an more upscale/premium alternative to companies like Toyota.

 

[Ev0]

I agree with you guys on VW. I have no idea what they were smoking when they decided to go after Mercedes with cars like the Phaeton and the Touareg (good cars, but who the hell is going to pay $100,000 CAD for a VW?).

 

[Sniffs]

HELLO! you guys should read the likes of motortrend and Car and Driver more often
it's VAG...volkswagen Audi group...they share platforms, and the VW Taoureg shares a platform with Porsche's Cayenne

the story is that the guys running GM at the time didn't know what the hey to do with olds...they couldn't find it's right market niche untill near the label's centennial...then they killed it off anyway after finally getting it right...when they should have been applying those Ideas to Pontiac.

caddy is finally being turned into beamer/benz beaters because they're trying to sell caddilac to a younger market!...ditto with buick. saturn is moving up into Olds's old slot...early saturns turned up total crap in the engine department.

 

[The359]

and to suggest Saturn is moving up to Buick level is to completely overestimate Saturn and totally underestimate Buick. Basically, it's totally wrong.

Saturn is being moved upmarket, as many people have said, to fill the whole left by Oldsmobile.

Considering Oldsmobile was right below Buick on the GM hierarchy, that would make Saturn nearly on par with Buick.

 

[bone324]

You're missing the point. They should make the divisions compete. Audi doesn't go out of business because BMW exists, they compete instead. Same deal.

Insulting the Vue V6's performance is a lost cause since it's the second-quickest small SUV ever produced and in Red Line form it handles somewhat well also. The interior may be cheap but I prefer features to a cheap interior, as does the buying public, car enthusiasts aside.

No, I'm not missing the point. Saturn is building cars on the same platform as Chevy. The ION and the Cavalier are the same car. The engine, transmission, and chassis are all the same. The only difference is the looks and small features. This is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT "deal" than Audi vs. BMW. They are building carbon copies to compete with each other, instead of GOOD CARS to compete with other manufacturers. I DROVE the VUE Redline on a track, and I don't care how fast you think it is. It is crap. The seats were flat and slippery. The interior plastics were cheaper and thinner than the Coleman cooler in my garage. The tires had no grip whatsoever and the suspension wallows like a '73 Cadillac. I do like the exterior treatment on the VUE Redline, and I was looking forward to testing the performance of it's proven, 250hp Honda powerplant in a relatively lightweight vehicle. So what are these "features" you keep referring to? The most basic way to move a brand upmarket is to address interior material deficiencies, and they haven't bothered.

 

[Danny]

As an outsider (i.e. Non-USA), I prefer Pontiac to Buick.
I don't know why, but Buick conjures up images of boring sedans.

 

[Firebird]

GM: No plans to phase out any brands

By Jason Stein
Automotive News / March 24, 2005


DETROIT -- General Motors reasserted on Thursday it has no intention of eliminating any of its brands in the future.

Mark LaNeve, vice president of sales and marketing for GM, told Automotive News the automaker is investing heavily in all eight brands. Phasing out a particular division is not under consideration.

"We have no plans, or even discussions, of killing any brands," LaNeve said, "We're investing more heavily than ever in product and marketing programs."

On Wednesday, GM Vice Chairman Robert Lutz told a Morgan Stanley Automotive conference in New York if one of GM's "troubled brands" fails to turn around, "then we'd have to take a look at a phase-out," Lutz said.

Published reports linked Pontiac and Buick to Lutz's comments.

LaNeve reemphasized in a message to dealers Thursday that both brands are safe.

LaNeve also said GM is managing Buick, Pontiac and GMC as one channel and providing those divisions with a product portfolio "to service that channel and to focus " the lineup.

That represents a key difference from Oldsmobile, which GM killed last year, he said.

"These portfolios we're going to deliver we don't have to deliver an A to Z portfolio for those three brands," he said. "We can tighten and focus them. I'd rather have four or five great Pontiacs or Buicks than eight undistinguishable products. That business model makes a lot of sense."

 

[Double_R]

Isn't that Audi and VW?

Audi and VW dont compete. VW competes with the likes of ford and volvo.