Buying from Uncle Mao: US Cherry Models

[JCE]

I would guess that the bulk of the Cherry sales will be leases and not full 5-year loans.

 

[a6m5]

I would guess that the bulk of the Cherry sales will be leases and not full 5-year loans.

Now, if their cars actually get favorable review in the U.S. upon the release, a "lease" option would be interesting. I mean, it's gotta be dirt cheap, right? Makes you think a little bit.

P.S. I'm laughing at your sig.

 

[niky]

RE: Chinese cars, honestly, if you've never seen or driven one, how can you judge?

Well, I can. They sell them here. Now.

I like new Koreans, with interior materials and tech five years out of date now instead of ten, they're arguably good value for the money, and aren't far behind on reliability and refinement... but that depends on the brand... There are still some brands that live in the stone age.

Chinese cars... I find it hard to take any of them seriously. They sell them here at very low prices, with pretty skins but cut-rate interiors and dubious mechanicals. While Chinese cars in the future may be worth a look at, would you want to risk being the proud owner of what could be the next Daewoo?

At least the Protons and some of the old Hyundai/Kias we've gotten were licensed tech from Mitsubishi and Mazda, so parts were interchangeable.

A major hurdle in preventing any brand from developing an unsavory reputation is the availability of spares from alternative sources. One good way for any new brand to penetrate the US market is to use a fair percentage of local parts (ACs, electricals, electronics) or to seed the market or provide a good stock of spares.

Hyundai/Kia spent a long time building up their brand reputation and working on getting their act right. They licensed technology from proven brands in order to ensure at least decent quality and reliability for their cars. Yes, they did make some crap, but they've worked to improve on it.

Some of these Chinese companies, however, are starting from bare scratch. They're either making their own designs and mechanicals on a lower budget than other makers, or outright stealing some of their technology... which isn't as easy as licensing, because you can only learn so much from reverse engineering. You could, for example, make a con-rod look the same, but to the same quality and durability specs as the original item?

Therein lies the major problem... whether they're in manufacturing seriously, and for the long haul, or whether they're out to make a quick buck by selling loads and loads of cheap products.

 

[NSX-R]

I have seen and driven Chinese cars, and to me, they are only acceptable for sedative drives from A to B. However, did you drive a CHERRY? Or just a Chinese car? Would you say a Merc must be good because you had a pleasant experience with a BMW?

Guys, let's look at it this way: if you are a track racer for 20 years, and a "ricer"(for a lack of better word) comes up to you and say, "I want to put my past behind me and start to get serious, would you help me?".

Would you say "welcome", or "get lost"?

If Cherry is planning to put Quantity of Quality in US or anywhere else in the world, they are going to learn a lesson... in the hard way. Darwanism applies to the bussiness world more harshly then in the ecosystem nowdays, so stop worrying! If they deserve to survive, they will! And vice versa.

For those of you who are judging Cherry by the record of Landwind, think about this: Would you hold Dodge accountable for Ford's record? Think about it.

 

[Jim Prower]

I'll wait for the underhood and body panel quality before I decide anything.

oh, it's not "Cherry," It's Chery.

 

[a6m5]

Guys, let's look at it this way: if you are a track racer for 20 years, and a "ricer"(for a lack of better word) comes up to you and say, "I want to put my past behind me and start to get serious, would you help me?".

I do see where you are coming from. But this isn't a "Chery Support Board" or a fan club of sort. We are analyzing, judging, speculating, etc., etc. It's pretty much the main purpose of this discussion board.

We could have 20 members taking turns going, "Good luck, Chery!" "I hope you do well in the NA Market!". Or we can look at it realistically and discuss our thoughts on the subject. We are not blowing smoke up their you know what, but we are not Anti-Chery group either.

For those of you who are judging Cherry by the record of Landwind, think about this: Would you hold Dodge accountable for Ford's record? Think about it.

Yes, I am. Again, I hear you loud and clear, but you are looking at it wrong in my opinion. The way I look at it, and playing by your example, United States has never before exported their own cars to the Market X. They are known to be one of the worst cars around, while pretty much photocopying Japanese SUV designs(which is illegal in most countries). Under the circumstance, no matter which of the Big 3 is coming into the Market X, they would all be looked at the same way, because it's not like one is spectacularly better than the other.

 

[a6m5]

I'll wait for the underhood and body panel quality before I decide anything.

oh, it's not "Cherry," It's Chery.

You are not worried about under the body or the electronics(computers)?

Edit: Sorry. Double Post!

 

[NSX-R]

Of course this is a disscussing board, that's why I'm expressing my POV. I never said "You gotta agree with me because I'm strong enough to sweep the floor with you!".

Yes, stereotyping will always exist. I can see that Chery (I did that just for you Jim) has done nothing to impress you all, but it hasn't copied designs that I am aware of.

 

[a6m5]

Of course this is a disscussing board, that's why I'm expressing my POV. I never said "You gotta agree with me because I'm strong enough to sweep the floor with you!".

What I was getting at was that we were having a discussion about Chery, and you criticized some of us for not morally supporting them. Feel free to support Chery, just don't tell us that we have to do the same. That's not the point of this thread.

Yes, stereotyping will always exist. I can see that Chery (I did that just for you Jim) has done nothing to impress you all, but it hasn't copied designs that I am aware of.

I don't know if Chery copied anybody, I was talking about the whole country(China/in my example, the U.S.).

I apologize if I come across as rude. I don't mean any disrespect.

 

[NSX-R]

Sorry if I sounded rude, but nothing can be further from the truth. I respect you guys with all my heart.

However, you are contradicting yourself. First you say that this thread is about Chery, then you said this is about the country... I'm confused...

I never said you HAVE to do the same, I just said "think about it". Persuasion and Force are very different concepts.



By the way, if anyone feels that I was criticizing you guys morally, I would like to appologize. I meant nothing of the sort.

 

[Tornado]

Yes, I am. Again, I hear you loud and clear, but you are looking at it wrong in my opinion. The way I look at it, and playing by your example, United States has never before exported their own cars to the Market X. They are known to be one of the worst cars around, while pretty much photocopying Japanese SUV designs(which is illegal in most countries). Under the circumstance, no matter which of the Big 3 is coming into the Market X, they would all be looked at the same way, because it's not like one is spectacularly better than the other.

The differene is, however, that the only reason Chery is allowed to sell cars in the U.S. realistically is that

1. They do not sell copies of cars in China.
2. They meet certain safety, emmisions, etc. standards.

Number 2 alone means that they are more serious about putting out quality products, which means they should not be held accountable for other companies actions. I'd like to see Jainling try to sell the Landwind here as a comparison. Not only would they be sued the second they sold one, but they would also have to be recalled for being unsafe. Unless both of these apply to Chery (which I don't think will happen, after reading up on their U.S. launch plans), it is unfair to apply most of China's car companies to Chery.

 

[a6m5]

Sorry, guys. I got little sidetracked.

NSX-R: Glad to hear it. We are cool. 👍

However, you are contradicting yourself. First you say that this thread is about Chery, then you said this is about the country... I'm confused...

Again? I'm not contradicting myself, let me explain. This thread is about Chery. I mentioned countries to make a point in my example, because you said that we shouldn't judge Dodge for something Ford did(something along that line).

I never said you HAVE to do the same, I just said "think about it". Persuasion and Force are very different concepts.

You are right, you never said what we "have to" do the same. But I thought you were being pretty persistent.

The differene is, however, that the only reason Chery is allowed to sell cars in the U.S. realistically is that
They do not sell copies of cars in China.

I don't think that is any kind of requirement, but that didn't stop me from doing this either.

Chery Altima

Chery Maxima
These comparisons are just too cool. While I don't condone piracy, you gotta admit, it's kind of cool in a amusing way.

And for your "#2" requirement(meeting safety, emission standards), that doen't mean anything other than they passed the bare minimum to sell in the U.S. I'm not criticizing Chery here, I'm just saying what that means.

These new generations of Chery cars will be better than the "rest" from China(question of course is how much?). I'm not doubting that at all. But I'm surprised that, you of all people don't get what I am saying, when I bring up what all the Asian manufacturers went thru, when they first opened for business in the U.S. What makes Chery so special, that their car will be as good as the competitors on the first try? Hyundai couldn't do it, and they were much more established company compared to the likes of Chery, even at their start.

 

[ozyran]

Well, I hope their safety rating is better than the one the Jiangling SUV got a little while back:

Supposedly, they've been redesigned, but we'll see.

 

[NSX-R]

REPLY TO A6M5:

Persistency is one of the most important element in persuasion, so there is no question why I was persistent, right?

Chery QQ vs. Chevy Spark
Honestly, I really, swear to god, never heard of Chevy Spark. Search on google, and apparently the original design is from Daewoo. QQ is suprisingly succesfull in China, so I heard. The Spark and Daewoo are not sold in China and QQ is a "domestic" car only, so financially they are not hurt. But I'm disturbed by the fact that Chery stole the design. One for a6m5.

Chery Tiggo vs Toyota RAV4
I didn't know what that Chery SUV was, but googled "RAV4 Chery", and there it was. Stylisticaly alarmling similar, as these picture shows:

I have no ideal about the mechanical lay-out piracy, but I wouldn't doubt it if Chery copied most of the design too (on account on their theft on appearance)

Chery Avensis vs Nissam Altima
Again, I had to search for the car (where did you find all this buddy? Amazing!). You are right, they are identical twins... However, the Avensis looks smaller and less technologically advanced. Temperarily I believe the mechnical lay-out should be distinct, and is in the same class as... Sentra. But if anyone shows me any relevant evidence that the entire car is copied, I would believe him/her.

Chery A5 vs Nissam Maxima
Searched for them, and for sure, appearance cues are copied, but... well let the picture say for itself...

Not exactly stealing Maxima's customers, but still not a respectable act.

Thank you, a6m5, for pointing out for us. I take back what I said (In previous posts I said there were no copies that I was aware of... which was true). I guess this goes out to show that the Chinese auto-industry is not mature... at all. There is a lack of human resourses and incentive to develop a legitimate car. But now they are comming out, I see this as a big step forward because they are showing signs leaving (I hope) their "copied" past. Frankly, the prototypes posted in the first post are infinitively better and more legitimate than the ones a6m5 posted. I'm kindda bumed and disappointed but still have hope for the future.

 

[a6m5]

Thanks, NSX.

Copying somebody else's designs are not good. But I think you are right, when you say that they are probably trying to stop this trend.

I know I sounded Anti-Chinese or something to some members in this thread, but in reality, Chery is going to be playing with the big boys for the first time. They might become a major player in North America, but not for few years at least. That's my prediction.

 

[niky]

Lack of resources isn't all of it, it's short-cutting, really.

We always get a laugh out of each new Chinese motor show, Chery isn't the only big offender at those.

By the way, the Chevy Spark is probably one of the few Daewoo rebadges that's actually worth buying, mainly because it's so cheap. Most of their other ex-Daewoo cars are pretty... meh. (this is just so you know I'm not a total Korean fanboy... ).

Like I've said: it's a wait and see whether the Chinese makers get serious about market penetration and building a good customer base, or are merely out to make a quick buck. Again, I bring the Koreans into this... the over-use of the Pininfarina badge and claims of "Italian" design just go to show... where there's a will, there's outsourcing. Many of the Chinese automakers don't budget for stuff like this, stuff that's important in the long run.

And, RE: Crash tests? That's another wait-and-see. Given the current state of development, it may take them a long while to get these right. But if any Chinese car posts three stars or more in the EPA crash tests, I will wipe it off my "never ever consider" list and put it on the "interesting alternatives" list.

But considering it's Bricklin (I finally remembered!) that Chery's partnered with, I feel sorry for them. He seems cursed never to meet the success his wild (kooky?) ideas should give him.

 

[ozyran]

Bricklin? Wow, I guess he's (they're?) still at it in the automotive industy. If these cars post a decent crash rating, they'd be interesting alternatives. However, I think they should consider a more unique design philosophy. Or, at least pirate decent designs, like the 1970 'Cuda, the 1976 Nova, the 1974 AMC Gremlin...
(j/k. Don't believe in piracy and never will)

 

[NSX-R]

"Quick Money" for Chinese automakers are sorely in China, because they can put-out a "patrotic" spirit on advertisments.

I'm pretty sure that these companies know that North America is one of the most demanding market of them all. The sign of them comming out is the sign of them getting serious.

They are already bringing wooden sticks to a gun fight, so I would assume that they would bring their best "weapons".

 

[niky]

We'll see what happens, but with major players starting to crowd the budget end of the market, it'll be a struggle.

Chery is aiming at a square cross-section of the market, it seems, and to be fair, they won't be as far behind in looks and technology as the Koreans were when they first took the plunge in NA. But they really should look at producing unique products or even bringing in Asian market (smaller) products to the US. People are starting to look downward, so introducing a new SUV at this time, with unproven reliability, performance and cachet, might be kind of suicidal.

Small cars might just work, and they could sell enough to erect a decent service and dealership network. Heck, that's how Bricklin started, with the Subaru 360... of course, that didn't work very well, but the idea was interesting.

 

[GT4_Rule]

If Chery wants to sell cars in the US, then they will have to stop copying the styling from established companies. Honestly, that's plagiarism. (sp?)

 

[Tornado]

No they don't, so long as they don't sell said copyrighted designs where they are actually copyrighted. If Chery wanted to, they could sell picture-perfect copies of Alfa Romeo's here for two years before any trouble started.

 

[a6m5]

they won't be as far behind in looks and technology as the Koreans were when they first took the plunge in NA.

Get out! You really think so? Hyundai came in with the Mitsubishi design, Kia didn't look that bad either. Daewoo..... well, you know, they are Daewoo.

On Hyundai Excel, looks and technology I thought were solid(of course, I was like 12 when I first saw one). It was the reliability, or lack of it, that was a issue with them. And yes, they were notorious for the paint coming off.

 

[1X83Z]

Get out! You really think so? Hyundai came in with the Mitsubishi design, Kia didn't look that bad either. Daewoo..... well, you know, they are Daewoo.

I actually agree with him. Hyundai didn't have Mitsubishi styling, they had Mitsubishi engines. Their styling was all Korean:

A photo taken in 1985 of a 1986 Hyundai Excel just arrived on a dealer's lot

Kia was no better:

It wasn't bad, but it screamed "average" - especially because it was putting out like 94 horsepower. The Chinese cars aren't breathtaking but they're leagues better than this - they'd basically have to be, since car styling has progressed so much since the mid-80s and mid-90s.

 

[a6m5]

Good job finding the dealer photo.

Doug, he wasn't comparing the upcoming Chery models with the Korean models from 80's and 90's. He thought the Chinese models will be more competitive in looks and technology than the Korean cars were, when they entered the U.S. Market.

P.S. I thought the Excel was designed by French designer. I've always liked the looks of Excels. Sephia's didn't look bad.

 

[1X83Z]

Good job finding the dealer photo.

It wasn't easy - do note that the number written on the windshield is the selling price.

Doug, he wasn't comparing the upcoming Chery models with the Korean models from 80's and 90's. He thought the Chinese models will be more competitive in looks and technology than the Korean cars were, when they entered the U.S. Market.

I know - when I said "'80s and '90s" I was referencing the entrance of the two major Korean brands in the US market: Hyundai debuted in 1986 and Kia in 1994.

 

[niky]

Hmmm... maybe not the looks, then. Those do look darn contemporary (for their time). Damn these rose-tinted glasses...

 

[harrytuttle]

Tried to post this two days ago when the power went out. (Router dead, computer fried, all sorts of unhappiness.) Sorry if it's slightly out of context:

A car is a major investment, surpassed only by a house for most people - and if the car doesn't live up to the expectations of the buyers, of course there would be lots of negativity. The Japanese started off making quality products, such as radio transmitters, transistors and such. China started off making pirated and unreliable products - see the difference?

Actually, Japan started pretty much the same way as China is now. Most of the early products were definitely inferior 50 years ago. This, combined with the strong anti-Japanese tendencies just after WWII, meant Japan was fighting an extremely difficult climb. It wasn't until the 70's gas crisis that Japanese cars were taken seriously (because US manufacturers just couldn't get it together to make fuel-efficient cars), and it wasn't until Sony's revolution in the early 80's that the electronics industry gained any respect.

Korea started very much the same way: Hyundai was a joke for a very long time, and sort of still is, but they've really earned their place recently. Their reliability is rivalling Toyota, and the design is no longer as "icky".

However, China is the least Westernized of all Asian countries, and the government still has very strong anti-West methods & practices that show exactly what they think of the rest of the world. They also have the loosest and least-enforced copyright and anti-piracy laws in the world. Copying things is not the necessity it was in post-war, do-or-die Japan; it is a way of life in China, and they're starting to thrive on it. There's no reason for them to change things.

They've also got a mostly captive market from which is slowly emerging a semi-middle class, and many are starting to be able to afford cars for the first time. Being the cheapest on the block (for many reasons) means sales will be sky high, and those same designs (mechanical, structural, visual) will be shared with the rest of the world for at least the medium-term, if not for the long term.

On the other hand, the car industry is very different from how it was 50 years ago. It used to be easier (but certainly not easy) to start a small car company, and you could pretty much guarantee that the cars would be unreliable for a long time since you had to make most of your own parts. These days, anyone with a few billion dollars can start contracting to large parts suppliers, build a giant factory or two, and slap your logo on the front door. Reliability will be up drastically compared to how a 60's small-volume manufacturer would be, but then again who cares when the car collapses like it's made of papier mache (stand up please, Chery)?

Having the right parts and knowing how to build cars are two extremely different things. China understands what goes into a car, but I'm pretty sure they are still learning how to put the blocks together. Don't forget that they'll be exported to any 3rd World country that is in a similar economic situation as China. I forsee plastic Fisher-Price cars coming from the big red state for the next 30 years. And they all will be poo.

Someone was questioning whether Chery would be different than Landwind. I doubt it. Chinese is a communist country, where everything is government owned....

 

[JCE]

The Hyundai Excel was just a Toyota Tercel wasn't it? I swear Toyota had somekind of hand in it somewhere.

My mom had a 1987 Excel 5spd and she put ~240,000 miles on it with no problems. Never once had an issue with it...and you should have seen the dirt roads lived down and we (my parents) had to drive on back then.

 

[a6m5]

Someone was questioning whether Chery would be different than Landwind. I doubt it. Chinese is a communist country, where everything is government owned....

Yeah, if you are talking about Chery, I believe it is state owned. They've been growing, but I read somewhere that Chery were really small scale operation until just recently.

I don't know about 30 years, but I do agree that it will be few years, at least a decade until Chery cars in America will be worth a look.

The Hyundai Excel was just a Toyota Tercel wasn't it? I swear Toyota had somekind of hand in it somewhere.

My mom had a 1987 Excel 5spd and she put ~240,000 miles on it with no problems. Never once had an issue with it...and you should have seen the dirt roads lived down and we (my parents) had to drive on back then.

I could swear that it was essentially a Mitsubishi car, though M5Power says different. It's definitely not a Toyota anything though. MMC did sell it under Mitsubishi name in the States as well. I forget what it was called, but I remember they restrained from putting the "three diamond" emblem on the grill.

 

[Jay]

The Hyundai Excel was just a Toyota Tercel wasn't it? I swear Toyota had somekind of hand in it somewhere.

My mom had a 1987 Excel 5spd and she put ~240,000 miles on it with no problems. Never once had an issue with it...and you should have seen the dirt roads lived down and we (my parents) had to drive on back then.

1987? that would have been a X1 Excel, the carby version? I'm not sure of the reliability of them but,

My mum had a 1991 X2 Excel and from 80,000km's (50,000miles) onwards it gave us nothing but problems, mainly electrical. The ECU was replaced twice, the MAF sensor was replaced once, at around 130,000km's (81,000miles) the distributor gear sheared off while my father was driving which obviously caused the engine to shut off immediately.

Not to mention all the headache inducing intermediate stuttering problems that came and went due to electrical connections and faulty sensors. Finally my parents had enough of patching that engine so at 180,000km's (111,000miles) my father just changed over the engine with another one he got cheap, which ran fine for about 20,000km's (12,500miles) then started having the same problems.

with about 200,000km's (125,000miles) my parents just got rid of it and bought a N15 Pulsar and never looked back.