C&D Z06 vs F430 vs 997TT

[Dave A]

Obviously, the total weight remains the same, I don't think anybody would ever disagree with that. That's a mute point, at best.
okay, great. Is a car a solid board, with one spring?
put the board, on four springs, at each corner. now lean it over. (like a car in a corner) which side has the most weight on it? the lowest. (the outside)
Now lean it a little less. the outside (lowest) still has the most weight on it, but not as much as when you lean it farther.

Yes, but if you replace thoes with stiffer spirngs and apply the same pressure to the same point it won't lean as much but the force pressing down will be exactley the same.

 

[Scaff]

Yes, but if you replace thoes with stiffer spirngs and apply the same pressure to the same point it won't lean as much but the force pressing down will be exactley the same.

Off topic but quite right.

As long as the spring and damper rates are the same at each corner (which would be very rare) then softening or stiffening them all by the same amount will not significantly affect the load transfered either longitudinaly or lateraly (or a combination of both during corner entry or exit.

Yes increased roll will have a small effect as it does alter the cars centre of gravity, but the change is almost always very small, and often negligable.

Its the relationship between front and rear suspension settings that will effect how this load is distributed between each tyre, not the overall softness or stiffness of the suspension.

This was covered very well by Greyout in this thread.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=57625

This is however now well off-topic (something I was as guilty of as anyone else), but can we now keep it on-topic. Anyone wishing to discuss the area of load transfer in relation to suspension set-up can do so here

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13110


Regards

Scaff

 

[Duke]

Communication is only important to the semi-serious, or non-serious, who won't be driving their car all that much, or simply won't explore the limits of that car often, or ever.

I'm gonna come right out and say that this is dead, flat wrong. Sorry, pal, but your entire (lengthy) argument is mostly incorrect; this statement being the most incorrect of all.

 

[YSSMAN]

Someone had a test of the Noble M15 in their newest issue, Top Gear if I'm not mistaken. Anyone care to post numbers?

 

[Scaff]

Someone had a test of the Noble M15 in their newest issue, Top Gear if I'm not mistaken. Anyone care to post numbers?

Top Gear tested it (and were very, very impressed) on the last in the current series of the TV show.

I've just had a check in the current issues of Top Gear, Evo and Autocar and none of them has a review of the M15 yet.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Poverty]

Someone had a test of the Noble M15 in their newest issue, Top Gear if I'm not mistaken. Anyone care to post numbers?

I have the latest issue but havent bothered to read it yet. Let me go look see.

 

[///M-Spec]

Communication is only important to the semi-serious, or non-serious, who won't be driving their car all that much, or simply won't explore the limits of that car often, or ever.

Yeah. Cars like the 911 GT3 and Exige are made for only the semi-serious and non-serious driver. You know... for people who won't explore the limits of the cars.

That's why they communicate so well.


M

 

[=V8 Power=]

I find it funny how much C/D change their opinions about cars. In the October 2005 magazine, C/D couldn't say enough about how crazy fast the Z06 was. They even had it on the cover as "Corvette from Hell" Yet when it is put up between two other cars it gets last place?? I know handling and other aspects must be considered but still? Its a 7.0L V8??

 

[neanderthal]

obviously in isolation it was good, but in context, it wasnt quite the same.

give parolee a burger and hed probably say its the greatest thing since sliced bread. then give him a nice succulent steak and suddenly that burger might taste like ration meat.

 

[YSSMAN]

If it was a test of all-American supercars, the Z06 would have won against models like the SRT-10 Coupe and Ford GT, quite easily I would assume. Context was indeed the issue, and given the cheaper nature of the car (far, far, far less than the competition) it kinda pushed itself out with the cheaper interior and exterior.

It's still the everyman's sportscar, and thats the thing that keeps people comming back. They know that they can build twards a Corvette at some point in their life, and in any incarnation of the car, it still holds presence.

But you really can't complain much at less than $70K when you are getting performance to rival that of the world's best supercars...

 

[niky]

obviously in isolation it was good, but in context, it wasnt quite the same.

give parolee a burger and hed probably say its the greatest thing since sliced bread. then give him a nice succulent steak and suddenly that burger might taste like ration meat.

Exactly the kind of thing I keep touching upon when I review cars in GT4 or in real-life. In isolation, anything will feel good. Especially when filtered through a playstation joypad. Drive it back to back to back with similar cars and cracks start showing, and you start to see the imperfections there.

 

[YSSMAN]

According to the Top Gear BBC webpage, the Noble M15 recieved a 1.23.9 around the track, which isn't too shabby. I think the BBC's threats have chased away some posters on YouTube, so I have been unable to see the test, as I refuse to download the episode over two days using BitTorrent.

The car performed about where I had expected it (a few steps behind the Vette), so kudos to the boys a Noble for making a great car!

 

[vectradriver]

The Vectra communicates about as well as a deaf-mute, but I've certainly found its limits and gone beyond them once in the rain. Once you know a cars limits, then you can learn to drive it to get the best out of it. The Vectra prefers smooth cornering with a lift of the accelerator, which allows the grip to get on with it. The steering may be vague (very vague, like a dual-shock), but thankfully it's accurate enough on road to apex corners (while in your own lane of course, not truly apexing it, I'm not a tool).

 

[Poverty]

According to the Top Gear BBC webpage, the Noble M15 recieved a 1.23.9 around the track, which isn't too shabby. I think the BBC's threats have chased away some posters on YouTube, so I have been unable to see the test, as I refuse to download the episode over two days using BitTorrent.

The car performed about where I had expected it (a few steps behind the Vette), so kudos to the boys a Noble for making a great car!

Get a proxy and watch it on the website.

 

[YSSMAN]

Caught it on YouTube, surprisingly, and it seems like quite the nice car. Too nice to be imported to the US as kit car. A 911 killer? Could be, depends on how they price them in the US before I make the call...

Either way, its faster than the F430 and just a hair behind the Vette, and thats pretty damn good for what is still somewhat of a startup brand.

 

[TopHat]

Holy cow, my post did this??!?

The point of the post was that there are way too many idiots around here and they should be flogged till the point of knowledge!

Also the Verdict in the test was bogus, you cant compare a f/r car to a m/r
and a r/r!

Also they once compared the GT500(20000 less than a corvette, with 5 less hp) to..... A CORVETTE ZO6!

It absolutely infuriates me!

Also, hope this wasn't a repost!

 

[Tornado]

The point of the post was that there are way too many idiots around here and they should be flogged till the point of knowledge!

Okay, great. But then...

Also the Verdict in the test was bogus, you cant compare a f/r car to a m/r
and a r/r!

You pst this. Why the hell not? the Z06 is faster than the MR, and slightly slower than the R4WD (there hasn't been a RR 911 Turbo since 1989).

Also they once compared the GT500(20000 less than a corvette, with 5 less hp) to..... A CORVETTE ZO6!

I'm not sure where you are going with this, but I agree. The GT500 shouldn't be compared to the Z06. It should be compared to the SVT Cobra '03-04 and SVT Cobra R, which are both faster than it in a straight line and in turns, yet cost $20,000 less when new (well, about the same for the Cobra R).

 

[TopHat]

Okay, great. But then...

You pst this. Why the hell not? the Z06 is faster than the MR, and slightly slower than the R4WD (there hasn't been a RR 911 Turbo since 1989).

I'm not sure where you are going with this, but I agree. The GT500 shouldn't be compared to the Z06. It should be compared to the SVT Cobra '03-04 and SVT Cobra R, which are both faster than it in a straight line and in turns, yet cost $20,000 less when new (well, about the same for the Cobra R).

The reason they shoudn't be compared is the PRICING!

 

[YSSMAN]

When Car and Driver did the GT500 versus Vette comparo, it was a Z51, NOT a Z06. That would put it down 100 BHP to the Mustang, and a few pounds as well. Funny enough, the Mustang still had it's ass handed to it, as the car recieved way too much hype, and didn't live up to it.

Its completely fair to compare the two cars as well. They cost about the same, perform similarly, and sell to the same kind of people. The only way the competition would be better would be to get a 505 BHP GTO or Camaro at the line, but even then the Mustang would STILL lose...

 

[McLaren]

When Car and Driver did the GT500 versus Vette comparo, it was a Z51, NOT a Z06. That would put it down 100 BHP to the Mustang, and a few pounds as well. Funny enough, the Mustang still had it's ass handed to it, as the car recieved way too much hype, and didn't live up to it.

Its completely fair to compare the two cars as well. They cost about the same, perform similarly, and sell to the same kind of people. The only way the competition would be better would be to get a 505 BHP GTO or Camaro at the line, but even then the Mustang would STILL lose...

I read the same article. The only thing it showed was that Ford proved once again, Americans like to build cars with lots of power that is only good in a straightline.

I believe the same copy also reveiwed the C4 Stingray to a GT500. And I'm not exactly sure, but I also believe the magazine showed the '07 GT500 weighed more than what it "paid respect to."

That's nothing to hype about when you're remade version weighs more than the version before it, esp. when that version was built during the years people like to call "tank cars" and "gas guzzlers."

EDIT: Yep.
2007 Ford Mustang GT500 - 3,896 pounds.
1968 Shelby Mustang GT500KR - 3,780 pounds.

 

[niky]

I read the same article. The only thing it showed was that Ford proved once again, Americans like to build cars with lots of power that is only good in a straightline.

Correction... that Americans, in general, like to buy cars with straightline power over handling. There's a fine distinction, there.

 

[YSSMAN]

@ McLaren: It was a C3 Sting Ray, not a C4. The C4 Corvette was produced between 1984 and 1996, the C3 from 1968 to 1982. Yes, I realise there is a gap there, as there weren't any offical production Corvettes built in 1983.

I don't hate the GT500 for what it does, as I do think it is a pretty decent car overall. But when it was being billed as a Corvette and M3 killer for thousands less, and then proved to be the exact opposite, you have to find it quite funny.

The modern GT500 follows in the same vein as many American high-performance cars that are great to take in a straight line and will do it quite well, but isn't nearly as confident around the twisties. It isn't that the GT500 can't handle, as it does work quite well, but the lack of an IRS combined with the rather heavy 5.4L S/C engine hanging out over the front axle makes the car a no-go for some serious racing.

Maybe someone like Saleen or Rousch can clean the suspension up a bit and get things sorted out, but untill then, the Chrysler LX and GM Zeta cars still get my picks for best RWD American (or Aussie) models.

 

[Dave A]

Cars weigh more these days thanks to idfferent regulations, that's why the average Brtiish sportscar back then was under 1000kgs (2200lbs) but not now because the reuirements to built a production car are different.

 

[McLaren]

@ McLaren: It was a C3 Sting Ray, not a C4. The C4 Corvette was produced between 1984 and 1996, the C3 from 1968 to 1982. Yes, I realise there is a gap there, as there weren't any offical production Corvettes built in 1983.

I said C4? D*mn, I have to stop doing that with the C3 Stingrays.

 

[YSSMAN]

Quite allright, I know I occasionally get C1 and C2 Corvettes mixed up, early C2s in particular...

 

[SagarisGTB]

I hate to bring up a dead topic, but reading this and seeing the F430 getting crushed for being "too slow" was very disheartening.

Id also like to point out that Road and Track did a similar comparo in its september issue.

Lap times,
F430 F1 : 1'17.4
Z06 : 1'19.5
Turbo : 1'20.0

0-100 mph,
F430 : 8.3
Z06 : 8.9
Turbo : 9.5

0-100-0,
F430 : 12.5
Z06 : 13.1
Turbo : 13.4

other magazines have also compared the two cars with the F430 setting a better lap.

 

[Swift]

10 days is certainly not long enough to make a topic "dead" and you bring up good information.

what do you guys say about Sagaris's post?

 

[Scaff]

I hate to bring up a dead topic, but reading this and seeing the F430 getting crushed for being "too slow" was very disheartening.

Id also like to point out that Road and Track did a similar comparo in its september issue.

Lap times,
F430 F1 : 1'17.4
Z06 : 1'19.5
Turbo : 1'20.0

0-100 mph,
F430 : 8.3
Z06 : 8.9
Turbo : 9.5

0-100-0,
F430 : 12.5
Z06 : 13.1
Turbo : 13.4

other magazines have also compared the two cars with the F430 setting a better lap.

Your always going to get differences like this, so many variables are involved that something as simple as a different track surface or temperature can switch the results around when cars are this closely matched.

I wouldn't feel too bad for Ferrari amyway, remember the Z06 and 911 Turbo are currently the 'best' these two manufacturers have to offer, the 430 is the 'entry' level model in the Ferrari range. When it takes the best others have to offer to match your base model things are not that bad at all.

👍

Scaff

 

[Swift]

I wouldn't feel too bad for Ferrari amyway, remember the Z06 and 911 Turbo are currently the 'best' these two manufacturers have to offer, the 430 is the 'entry' level model in the Ferrari range. When it takes the best others have to offer to match your base model things are not that bad at all.

👍

Scaff

It also takes about $50K more.

 

[Scaff]

It also takes about $40K more.

True (but the difference is much smaller this side of the pond), but if you are in a position to seriously consider owning and running any of these then it starts becoming a rather academic point.

(and don't I wish I was in that position)



Scaff