Camera position changes car behavior

  • Thread starter Voodoovaj
  • 122 comments
  • 9,111 views
2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
I was looking through the forum and didn't find this mentioned anywhere, so I felt it needed to brought to light. This all started for me when I saw a video of ORMA_Snow driving in roof view and I wondered if it would help my lap times. I assumed, the better visibility would help me find the line better, and it does, but it does far more than that.

I want to help people get faster. If you like your cam view, fantastic! I'm merely passing along my findings.

What I have found is that the cars all seem to be pivoting around the camera's position relative to the car rather than pivoting around the car's own center. This is why, for instance, the Gr3 Huracan is so difficult to drive in bumper cam, but so much more docile in cockpit and roof view.

Today, for Interlagos, I took the Megane and tested all the cams in order to get to the bottom of which camera is fastest. I have been a bumper cam user since GT1, but it looks like roof cam is the fastest cam in the game and not just because of visibility reasons. My current pole time is 1:38:5, which I achieved with roof cam.

This is what I have found:

Bumper cam - Lapping in the high 1:39's and dipping into the 1:38's. I know this is everyone's favorite view, so this is an important topic. The car seems to be following the camera rather than driving the camera. I am a die hard bumper cam user and I just could not get better than a 1:38:9 with almost all laps being mid to high 1:39's.

Chase cam - 1:40's - 1:41's Similar to the bumper cam, the cars are pivoting around a point part way between the car and the camera. I can't say for sure that this was causing under steer, but I could not follow the line at all. Yes, I am sure with practice I could get better, but the handling was still not what it should have been. The Megane seems to always be way wide of the mark and the arc it followed through a line seems to always send it wide.

Cockpit cam - high 1:38's to low 1:39's. I think this one is pivoting close to where we are all assuming every cam is pivoting, but I get the sense that the car is pivoting with a slight offset because of the driving position. I could put the car where I wanted it on left turns, consistently, but had challenges to the right. I was chalking it up to visibility at first, but after seeing the behavior of the other cams, I am not so sure. It sure feels like there is an offset pivot. We can't really know without having the exact same car set up with two driving positions. It may just be visibility, but I'm doubtful. I was expecting it to behave the same as the roof cam, but it's definitely different.

Roof cam - mid to high 1:38's - This is very much like the cockpit cam but the pivot is centralized. This is likely where everyone believes all cars are pivoting regardless of camera, but it is definitely not the case. The location does remove some of the feel and feedback of the cockpit cam, but it makes up for it in consistency.

I don't know if this is a bug or if this is intended behavior. All I know is that I am now doing my best to get my skills up to par for roof cam. Roof cam is also (currently) going to have to be the camera for tuning. I say that because, if you tune out a behavior using one of the other cams, the car is going to have issues. I don't know if this was an issue in GT6 because I never bothered to try the other angles for more than a few moments.

Anyways, now you all know.
 
655
United States
United States
FluffaRaptor
I thought all the cameras besides chase cam put you in the cockpit and then the various car parts disappear accordingly. This can't be right if that is the case. Which is true?
 
4,160
Germany
Fürstentum Lippe
GTP_Nuschel
I have always been a roof cam user but recently started using the bumper cam as it has a rear view mirror. It still pisses me off that the roof cam doesn‘t have one... well, never had one 🤬

I also think this theory could be true as I always felt in chase cam you were a) turning the track and not the car and b) felt that the car was indeed having it‘s „center“ in the rear.
 
2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
I thought all the cameras besides chase cam put you in the cockpit and then the various car parts disappear accordingly. This can't be right if that is the case. Which is true?

I thought this same thing. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be the case.

This sounds really crazy. If you do some objective, reliable testing of corner speeds then I might be able to believe this. Or show different behaviour comparing them in replays.

The Huracan Gr3 is the smoking gun. Try it back to back. It's just way easier for everyone to grasp it if they experience it for themselves. To so many people, even evidence won't convince them.
 
451
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
oppsijustkilledu
I think it's just a you can better judge where your car is on the track in cockpit cam thing. Bumper cam isn't actually the bumper it's like 3ft inside the front of the car. I personally don't notice any difference in lap times between them all when I use the different camera views now as I know the tracks so well.
 

Jump_Ace

Compare Yourself To The Best Of Your Own Abilities
Staff Emeritus
8,603
United States
Portland, OR
Jump_Ace
JUMPxACE
I've used roof cam since, the first slalom test in GT4 (I couldn't see how close I was to the barriers in chase cam). I'm glad to know that I've chosen the best cam for driving and tuning :lol: The bad news is, I can't suddenly go any faster :( Can anyone else confirm this? I do trust the OP, but just want a 2nd opinion so to speak.


Jerome
 
88
United States
Austin, Texas
I am not sure as I think that your perspective on what the car is doing is changing depending on the cam position. I would use the roof cam except for no rear view. I instead race from the cockpit as it allows me to best judge the car from a natural seating position (I do wish I could zoom just a touch more).
 
657
Canada
Canada
TeknoBug75
BSDGuru
For some people it's easier to look further ahead on the track on the roof view, this was the case in Project CARS, people drove better on the roof view over the cockpit or hood view. For me it feels awkward on the roof view, I'm always using bumper view, I personally prefer cockpit but during races it lacks indicators of other drivers near/beside me.
 
349
Brazil
Brazil
Im a bumper cam since always, this weekend Ive played with my friends on split screen and used the chase cam for some races and felt that the car was different... maybe it wasnt just my feelings.
 
798
Canada
Vancouver
Nando_deBem
I tried bumper cam, hood cam and cockpit cam thinking one of them would make me faster because of the POV.
It’s just adjusting yourself to the new view, but the car is the same. In a couple of laps, I was able to be within 1 tenth on every view.
No measure in the car is changing because of the camera. Rotating should be easier because of the distance between front and rear axles, for example, not the cam position.
 
2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
You probably have a better sense of pivoting due to higher and “rearer” position of the Cam. It’s easier to notice lateral roll too. I don’t think they would implement physics based on the camera position. Makes no sense to me.

I know it makes no sense,. I know it should not be the case.

Huracan Gr3 - Dragron Trail - Bumper cam best lap is 1:41.8.

I have driven bumper cam forever. I am a a bumper cam driver.

Huracan Gr3 - Dragon Trail - Roof cam - First attempt after trying to set a fast lap with the bumper cam - 1:38.7

This isn't an opinion. These are my findings. I encourage everyone to go see for themselves.

I tried bumper cam, hood cam and cockpit cam thinking one of them would make me faster because of the POV.
It’s just adjusting yourself to the new view, but the car is the same. In a couple of laps, I was able to be within 1 tenth on every view.
No measure in the car is changing because of the camera. Rotating should be easier because of the distance between front and rear axles, for example, not the cam position.

Try it with the Huracan Gr3 or the NSX Gr3
 
798
Canada
Vancouver
Nando_deBem
I know it makes no sense,. I know it should not be the case.

Huracan Gr3 - Dragron Trail - Bumper cam best lap is 1:41.8.

I have driven bumper cam forever. I am a a bumper cam driver.

Huracan Gr3 - Dragon Trail - Roof cam - First attempt after trying to set a fast lap with the bumper cam - 1:38.7

This isn't an opinion. These are my findings. I encourage everyone to go see for themselves.



Try it with the Huracan Gr3 or the NSX Gr3

I think it’s the POV. It’s wider, so it’s easier to judge rotation in hairpins, for example, and that makes you a lot faster. You’ll know when to turn in, when to stop turning and when to get back on throttle more easily. It’s also a lot higher, so you know exactly where you are.
 
618
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
jamiemb17
I know it makes no sense,. I know it should not be the case.

Huracan Gr3 - Dragron Trail - Bumper cam best lap is 1:41.8.

I have driven bumper cam forever. I am a a bumper cam driver.

Huracan Gr3 - Dragon Trail - Roof cam - First attempt after trying to set a fast lap with the bumper cam - 1:38.7

This isn't an opinion. These are my findings. I encourage everyone to go see for themselves.



Try it with the Huracan Gr3 or the NSX Gr3
I just can't see this being possible in such a high-quality game without a glitch or error on your part being involved. But then again I haven't tried it for myself.
 
2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
I think it’s the POV. It’s wider, so it’s easier to judge rotation in hairpins, for example, and that makes you a lot faster. You’ll know when to turn in, when to stop turning and when to get back on throttle more easily. It’s also a lot higher, so you know exactly where you are.

All true, I agree, But there's also a strange pendulum effect with the Huracan and NSX that simply isn't there in cockpit and roof cam. They both oversteer far more in bumper cam regardless of line.

As I said above, cock pit and roof cam and likely both just fine and any differences is just because of the visibility and such, but with the other two, the car is definitely rotating around a different point. Oddly enough, I found the RSR to have less oversteer in bumper cam.
 
21
Australia
Sitting down
The car handling doesn't change, your perception of the handling does, however.
The experience for most people in a car is from, the inside. Nobody I know drives one while sitting on the roof, the bumper, or on the end of pole stuck out the back. So our expectations and perceptions of what the car should be doing in relation to its surroundings are different.
Cockpit cam looks the most realistic, but others in a game can be easier to use because they visually relay more information. I found bumper cam to be quicker for me personally, not because the car's handling is different, but because I can see more, and have a better visual sense of speed - This is important because, in a game, you are not actually moving, therefore the brain is not getting all the same data that relays a sense of speed, like vibration, wind noise, G force etc.

Cheers
BF
 
9,771
Sweden
Sweden
eran0004
All true, I agree, But there's also a strange pendulum effect with the Huracan and NSX that simply isn't there in cockpit and roof cam. They both oversteer far more in bumper cam regardless of line.

As I said above, cock pit and roof cam and likely both just fine and any differences is just because of the visibility and such, but with the other two, the car is definitely rotating around a different point. Oddly enough, I found the RSR to have less oversteer in bumper cam.

Physics doesn't work like that. The reason why you get this feeling of different pivoting centers is probably because when you're using "bumper" cam it's easy to believe that the camera is at the front of the car, when in fact it's in the middle of the car.
 
2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
Physics doesn't work like that. The reason why you get this feeling of different pivoting centers is probably because when you're using "bumper" cam it's easy to believe that the camera is at the front of the car, when in fact it's in the middle of the car.

That all depends on how the game camera has been implemented. When they did the PSVR work, the likely had to re do the game camera. We don't know what approach they took. For instance, the cockpit cam is not rigidly coded to the car. The cockpit is allowed to move around the camera. With the (front cam, first person cam, bumper cam, whatever you want to call it) it's more rigid.

Again, I sound like a broken record, go drive the Huracan Gr3 in the different views and let me know what you think after you've done that.
 
74
Norway
Norway
The camera view is stationary and so the camera will sway with the car in corners. The camera on the bumper is more stable as it is lower on the car and has an more stable center of gravity.
This picture kinda explains why the camera positions feels different the higher you get on the car and why the bumper view makes it feel like the car is following the camera view and vise versa
 

Attachments

  • 63042-004-46046993.gif
    63042-004-46046993.gif
    12.7 KB · Views: 51
9,771
Sweden
Sweden
eran0004
That all depends on how the game camera has been implemented. When they did the PSVR work, the likely had to re do the game camera. We don't know what approach they took. For instance, the cockpit cam is not rigidly coded to the car. The cockpit is allowed to move around the camera. With the (front cam, first person cam, bumper cam, whatever you want to call it) it's more rigid.

Again, I sound like a broken record, go drive the Huracan Gr3 in the different views and let me know what you think after you've done that.

There is no way that the camera is interfering with the physics. The car and the camera are two separate systems.
 
435
Iceland
Iceland
The car handling doesn't change, your perception of the handling does, however.
The experience for most people in a car is from, the inside. Nobody I know drives one while sitting on the roof, the bumper, or on the end of pole stuck out the back. So our expectations and perceptions of what the car should be doing in relation to its surroundings are different.

Cockpit cam looks the most realistic, but others in a game can be easier to use because they visually relay more information. I found bumper cam to be quicker for me personally, not because the car's handling is different, but because I can see more, and have a better visual sense of speed - This is important because, in a game, you are not actually moving, therefore the brain is not getting all the same data that relays a sense of speed, like vibration, wind noise, G force etc.

Cheers
BF
End of discussion I would say.
 
1,395
Congo Kinshasa
The Motherland
Manasseh257
Me personally I'm faster in bumper can and cockpit view due to my eyes being focused forward..

My finger reacts a little more accordingly and is a bit more steady.

My best times and results are from cockpit view but I don't trust racing in that view because I can never see any got damn thing around me.
 
112
United States
United States
I was looking through the forum and didn't find this mentioned anywhere, so I felt it needed to brought to light. This all started for me when I saw a video of ORMA_Snow driving in roof view and I wondered if it would help my lap times. I assumed, the better visibility would help me find the line better, and it does, but it does far more than that.

I want to help people get faster. If you like your cam view, fantastic! I'm merely passing along my findings.

What I have found is that the cars all seem to be pivoting around the camera's position relative to the car rather than pivoting around the car's own center. This is why, for instance, the Gr3 Huracan is so difficult to drive in bumper cam, but so much more docile in cockpit and roof view.

Today, for Interlagos, I took the Megane and tested all the cams in order to get to the bottom of which camera is fastest. I have been a bumper cam user since GT1, but it looks like roof cam is the fastest cam in the game and not just because of visibility reasons. My current pole time is 1:38:5, which I achieved with roof cam.

This is what I have found:

Bumper cam - Lapping in the high 1:39's and dipping into the 1:38's. I know this is everyone's favorite view, so this is an important topic. The car seems to be following the camera rather than driving the camera. I am a die hard bumper cam user and I just could not get better than a 1:38:9 with almost all laps being mid to high 1:39's.

Chase cam - 1:40's - 1:41's Similar to the bumper cam, the cars are pivoting around a point part way between the car and the camera. I can't say for sure that this was causing under steer, but I could not follow the line at all. Yes, I am sure with practice I could get better, but the handling was still not what it should have been. The Megane seems to always be way wide of the mark and the arc it followed through a line seems to always send it wide.

Cockpit cam - high 1:38's to low 1:39's. I think this one is pivoting close to where we are all assuming every cam is pivoting, but I get the sense that the car is pivoting with a slight offset because of the driving position. I could put the car where I wanted it on left turns, consistently, but had challenges to the right. I was chalking it up to visibility at first, but after seeing the behavior of the other cams, I am not so sure. It sure feels like there is an offset pivot. We can't really know without having the exact same car set up with two driving positions. It may just be visibility, but I'm doubtful. I was expecting it to behave the same as the roof cam, but it's definitely different.

Roof cam - mid to high 1:38's - This is very much like the cockpit cam but the pivot is centralized. This is likely where everyone believes all cars are pivoting regardless of camera, but it is definitely not the case. The location does remove some of the feel and feedback of the cockpit cam, but it makes up for it in consistency.

I don't know if this is a bug or if this is intended behavior. All I know is that I am now doing my best to get my skills up to par for roof cam. Roof cam is also (currently) going to have to be the camera for tuning. I say that because, if you tune out a behavior using one of the other cams, the car is going to have issues. I don't know if this was an issue in GT6 because I never bothered to try the other angles for more than a few moments.

Anyways, now you all know.

I made the switch from cockpit to roof and my times improved noticeably and consistently as well.
 
2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
There is no way that the camera is interfering with the physics. The car and the camera are two separate systems.

Not directly, but we don't know what they did with the camera/control.

There's a few methods for doing cameras in a game like this.

The first is what we assume they did, which is to mount cameras to the car (or "actor" if this were an action game) and we control the actor. The car has it's physics and we "drive" the car. The cameras get a bunch of parameters to smooth out their movement.

When it comes to games though, this type of control looks odd. The actor doesn't move as naturally so for action games they started implementing a method where the player controls a camera and the actor follows along.

IF (I am saying IF) that were to happen here, we as players would direct the camera and the car would do it's thing following along and looking really natural. The car physics remain the same, but if the camera is a "target" that the car is chasing, then it's behavior following that target would change. I'm not saying that IS what is happening, but that would explain why the car's behavior is different. As a player, you wouldn't be able to easily tell the difference.

Now, that's all speculation. All I am saying is the cars are driving differently. Why? Dunno. But they are.