Camshafts

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Sureboss

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A while back I asked Dad about Camshafts and how they work. He gave me a couple of Petersen manuals (they have price in American dollars and from the 60s) and I was thinking just how clever they are and the people who make them work must be, in relation to timing.

Anyone here ever worked with camshafts? Care to maybe put GTP into your knowledge?
 
I take it they run of the drive belt in an OHC engine? And as they spin the "knobs" (for lack of a better technical term) push the valves open and shut. I wanna know how a push rod works.
 
the "knobs" are called lobes and yes they open the valves - the lobes can be different sizes for valve open duration and lift they do not close the valves - thats the valve springs job.

Honda VTEC Cam for a DOHC engine with 16v has 6 lobes per cylinder now thats enginuity.
 

:lol: Makes sense. As for the diagrams, I already knew them things from a cut-away boxer-engine display at a recent auto show on a Subrau stand. Plus I've seen them before, but that's OHC, I'd like to see how a pushrod engine works. And the part I can't remember, is the camshaft spun by the drive belt?

Edit: barryl85, I knew them things about the springs and lift too, lobes makes more sense for terms though. So.....pushrod engine.
 
How would that work? That'd be 24 lobes in the whole block, yet only 16 valves, right?
 
I imagine they don't all press on the valves at once in a V-Tec, once the acclerator is depressed far enough or whatever triggers the increase the camshafts must move along to the larger lobes for larger intake and exhaust volume.
 
Yep thats true, well its usually one lobe per valve on your conventional engine which would require 16 lobes for a 16valve engine, but when VTEC engages (which is conducted by the ecu and oil pressure) the middle valve operates two valves at any one time - which means 8 lobes controlling 16 valves and all it does is give them an increased lift and duration
 
Did you mean the middle lobe? I'm a little confused now.
 
DOHC VTEC engine have 3 lobes per cylinder. 2 lobes on the intake cam (little and large) and one lobe on the exhaust cam as VTEC is activated through the Intake cam and not exhaust. Basically as mentioned above when the engine rpm gets to a certain speed the ecu notices this and once oil pressure is strong enough it pushes the smaller follower on the small lobe and locks it in place to bind it with the larger lobe.

Hence why VTEC controllers are pointless when lowering the VTEC engagement to say 3000rpm because the car doesnt have enough air volume/density for each cylinder to compliment the fuel supply.

My mate has a AE86 with a Honda F20c engine and when it was mapped it has a VTEC solenoid that can be switched "on" or "off" from idle. makes the car idle perfect when off and sound like a lumpy old mk2 escort rally car when on. sounds great but pointless and no power gains...only drinks Sunoco which is €110euro for 25 litres! lol
 
No they have 6 lobes per cylinder - and DOHC VTEC is active through both Intake and Exhaust

Honestly did you read what you wrote? 3 lobes per cylinder when they have 4 valves?? and one little and one large lobe on intake - do you want it to open one valve further than the other?
 

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Here's a pic of a 6 lobe/cylinder V-Tec engine. I'll be damned if I can see how itworks though :confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:K20_head.jpg//

Edit: I read this site http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question229.htm and now I understand. In the picture above in my post you can see one two valves there are 3 lobes. When the 2 smaller ones are spinning the larger one is not. When the larger one is spinning the 2 smaller ones are not. The larger one I assume is the bigger power one and will open both valves earlier for better high engine speed efficiency and larger for more gas intake/exhaust expulsion. Is that right? So how the hell they spin them separately is beyond me. And in an average engine what makes a camshaft spin in the first place?
 
Hence why VTEC controllers are pointless when lowering the VTEC engagement to say 3000rpm because the car doesnt have enough air volume/density for each cylinder to compliment the fuel supply.

My mate has a AE86 with a Honda F20c engine and when it was mapped it has a VTEC solenoid that can be switched "on" or "off" from idle. makes the car idle perfect when off and sound like a lumpy old mk2 escort rally car when on. sounds great but pointless and no power gains...only drinks Sunoco which is €110euro for 25 litres! lol

Erm VTEC does not engage when idling unless you have a vtec controler set to 0rpm but i do not think thats possible.

Oh and in the K20 - i-VTEC can advance the intake camshaft with its computer controlled, oil driven adjustable cam gear while driving
 
Oh, the camshafts are driven by the crankshaft via the timing belt.

*In Ralph Wiggum voice* I'm learnding. :dopey:

Edit: And now I understand pushrod and SOHC engines.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft1.htm

I'm not quite sure why the weight of pushrods and the load they place on valve springs limits engine speed, but I'll go with it.
 
Here's a pic of a 6 lobe/cylinder V-Tec engine. I'll be damned if I can see how itworks though :confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:K20_head.jpg//

Edit: I read this site http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question229.htm and now I understand. In the picture above in my post you can see one two valves there are 3 lobes. When the 2 smaller ones are spinning the larger one is not. When the larger one is spinning the 2 smaller ones are not. The larger one I assume is the bigger power one and will open both valves earlier for better high engine speed efficiency and larger for more gas intake/exhaust expulsion. Is that right? So how the hell they spin them separately is beyond me. And in an average engine what makes a camshaft spin in the first place?

The engine belt/chain does. Pictured here:



It's really not that difficult to understand.



Those are the rockers on which the cam lobes press. You can see them under the cams in the previously posted pic.



The "activation" of v-tec is not in the cam, but in the rockers. The rockers have a sectioned pin and sleeve running through them. When the sleeve (v-tec) is not engaged, each rocker opens and closes independently based on its cam lobe. When v-tec kicks in yo, and the sleeve is pushed over the sections of the pin via a hydraulic system, it locks the rockers together so that both valves on that section of the head open and close more simultaneously. You can see all of this in action in these youtube videos:


 
Erm VTEC does not engage when idling unless you have a vtec controler set to 0rpm but i do not think thats possible.

Oh and in the K20 - i-VTEC can advance the intake camshaft with its computer controlled, oil driven adjustable cam gear while driving

I know it doesnt NORMALLY engage at idle (900+/-rpm) but when fitted with a standalone ECU which my mates drift car is you can manually switch on/off the VTEC enagagment solenoid from whatever RPM band you like.
 
No they have 6 lobes per cylinder - and DOHC VTEC is active through both Intake and Exhaust

Honestly did you read what you wrote? 3 lobes per cylinder when they have 4 valves?? and one little and one large lobe on intake - do you want it to open one valve further than the other?

Yes of course what the hell was i thinking!! lol...sorry! :crazy:
They have 3 lobes per cam = 6 per cylinder. sorry.

I was thinking of VTEC-e with no VTEC on the exhaust side...thats what happens when your busy in work and also trying to post on a forum. ha.
 
The engine belt/chain does. Pictured here:



It's really not that difficult to understand.



Those are the rockers on which the cam lobes press. You can see them under the cams in the previously posted pic.



The "activation" of v-tec is not in the cam, but in the rockers. The rockers have a sectioned pin and sleeve running through them. When the sleeve (v-tec) is not engaged, each rocker opens and closes independently based on its cam lobe. When v-tec kicks in yo, and the sleeve is pushed over the sections of the pin via a hydraulic system, it locks the rockers together so that both valves on that section of the head open and close more simultaneously. You can see all of this in action in these youtube videos:



Thanks, that makes much more sense again. The 2nd video was wierd and I didn't get it so I watched the 1st around 5 times and got it.

Edit: So the rockers are just pads above and connected to the valve/valve springs, and the cam pushes on the rockers which push on the valve?
 
Hence why VTEC controllers are pointless when lowering the VTEC engagement to say 3000rpm because the car doesnt have enough air volume/density for each cylinder to compliment the fuel supply.

I know it doesnt NORMALLY engage at idle (900+/-rpm) but when fitted with a standalone ECU which my mates drift car is you can manually switch on/off the VTEC enagagment solenoid from whatever RPM band you like.

So why do you say VTEC Controllers are pointless? - you say your mate has his vtec constant and yet you also say its pointless?
 
I'm not quite sure why the weight of pushrods and the load they place on valve springs limits engine speed, but I'll go with it.

Because the more something weighs the more force is required to move it and stop it moving, so lighter vales and rods can be moved quicker than heavier ones. Pushrods add (in comparison to the overall valve weight) quite a bit of mass into the system. They also used to cause potential problems with pushrods flexing at higher engine speeds (and that you do not want happening), and this used to limit engine speeds for pushrod units as well. However modern materials have reduced this considerably, allowing pushrod engines to rev a lot higher than they ever used to.

Valve weight is a major issue in performance and competition engines, to such a degree that most valves are manufactured from lightweight metals and many are hollow and gas filled to reduce mass and allow faster engine speeds.

Take for example Del West Engineering, a company that manufactures nothing but valves and associated parts, including titanium ones for F1, WRC, NASCAR (and who said NASCAR was low tech - the oldest lie in the book).

The real pinnacle of this is the Formula 1 engine, some of which have done away with valve springs altogether, using pneumatically-driven valves instead. No value spring mass to worry about at all and more accurate timing as well, which you need if you want to run an engine at 18,000rpm. just to put that into perspective, 18,000rpm means that the engine is completing one full cycle every 0.003 seconds!!!


Regards

Scaff
 
So why do you say VTEC Controllers are pointless? - you say your mate has his vtec constant and yet you also say its pointless?

LOL...ok now we are getting wires crossed! i said that - "My mate has a AE86 with a Honda F20c engine and when it was mapped it has a VTEC solenoid that can be switched "on" or "off" from idle. makes the car idle perfect when off and sound like a lumpy old mk2 escort rally car when on. sounds great but pointless and no power gains...only drinks Sunoco which is €110euro for 25 litres! lol"

I never said it was left like this but it was something we toyed around with when it was being mapped. So at the time of doing this we said its pointless to leave it always ON because all it does is 1. sound good and 2. drink lots of expensive race fuel....so sence prevailed and it was switched off and left to come on at the RPM point it was originally mapped.

:)
 
Never mind, slow typer.
 
Thanks, that makes much more sense again. The 2nd video was wierd and I didn't get it so I watched the 1st around 5 times and got it.

Edit: So the rockers are just pads above and connected to the valve/valve springs, and the cam pushes on the rockers which push on the valve?

Yeah, the 2nd video was mainly to demonstrate the hydraulic system that pushes the sleeve over.

And, yes, that is correct. The valves are acted on by the rockers which are acted on by the cams.

So, anyway, I think v-tec activated at zero RPM is possible but would give you a really rough idle. You need the circulation that's generated by high engine speed to guide the air in and out of the cylinder when both valves are opened near simultaneously like that.
 
I'd love to articulate how a pushrod engine works with the camshafts, but the problem is, I don't know how to put it into words (much less, use the correct ones). Its the same idea (for the most part), however, there are more moving parts going about despite the overall simple design.

The main difference is that there is only one camshaft at the center of the engine, the pushrods moving up and down as the cam turns which in turn move the roller-rocker arms that lift or close the valves on each cylinder. Thats the most basic way I can describe it.
 
Because the more something weighs the more force is required to move it and stop it moving, so lighter vales and rods can be moved quicker than heavier ones. Pushrods add (in comparison to the overall valve weight) quite a bit of mass into the system. They also used to cause potential problems with pushrods flexing at higher engine speeds (and that you do not want happening), and this used to limit engine speeds for pushrod units as well. However modern materials have reduced this considerably, allowing pushrod engines to rev a lot higher than they ever used to.

Valve weight is a major issue in performance and competition engines, to such a degree that most valves are manufactured from lightweight metals and many are hollow and gas filled to reduce mass and allow faster engine speeds.

The real pinnacle of this is the Formula 1 engine, some of which have done away with valve springs altogether, using pneumatically-driven valves instead. No value spring mass to worry about at all and more accurate timing as well, which you need if you want to run an engine at 18,000rpm. just to put that into perspective, 18,000rpm means that the engine is completing one full cycle every 0.003 seconds!!!


Regards

Scaff

Thanks, so I have a pushrod V6, blessedly awesome engine with kick-butt power and torque curves. Is geting better pushrods a performance option? I also just realised, pushrod engines that get really bad power drop off, is that because of pushrods flexing at the higher RPM?
 
Because the more something weighs the more force is required to move it and stop it moving, so lighter vales and rods can be moved quicker than heavier ones. Pushrods add (in comparison to the overall valve weight) quite a bit of mass into the system. They also used to cause potential problems with pushrods flexing at higher engine speeds (and that you do not want happening), and this used to limit engine speeds for pushrod units as well. However modern materials have reduced this considerably, allowing pushrod engines to rev a lot higher than they ever used to.

Valve weight is a major issue in performance and competition engines, to such a degree that most valves are manufactured from lightweight metals and many are hollow and gas filled to reduce mass and allow faster engine speeds.

Take for example Del West Engineering, a company that manufactures nothing but valves and associated parts, including titanium ones for F1, WRC, NASCAR (and who said NASCAR was low tech - the oldest lie in the book).

The real pinnacle of this is the Formula 1 engine, some of which have done away with valve springs altogether, using pneumatically-driven valves instead. No value spring mass to worry about at all and more accurate timing as well, which you need if you want to run an engine at 18,000rpm. just to put that into perspective, 18,000rpm means that the engine is completing one full cycle every 0.003 seconds!!!


Regards

Scaff

Pneumatic valves are only now becoming common engine components in MotoGP bikes....only about 15+years after F1. :crazy: F1 teams are looking into using Electro hydraulic vales for more stable and accurate valve control at the RPM they run now with NO camshaft at all. This is also to reduce moving parts and engine mass and surprisingly to improve valve control aswell. How long before its common in every day cars?
 
VTEC at idle is possible - they are called TODA VTEC Killer Cams - VTEC isnt something magical its just a bigger cam lift that activates after a certain RPM

And rough idle isnt the word lol

The killer cams to be honest get rid of VTEC but its because its a constant huge cam lift so you would never need VTEC to give you a bigger lift
 
Thanks, so I have a pushrod V6, blessedly awesome engine with kick-butt power and torque curves. Is geting better pushrods a performance option? I also just realised, pushrod engines that get really bad power drop off, is that because of pushrods flexing at the higher RPM?

Pushrods are considered to be the weakest part of the valvetrain because of the workload they carry. As a performance option they should be the foundation to build a good head on. Tapered pushrods should be used in engines that are equipped with roller rockers/lifters, increased valve lash, high ratio rocker arms and operate at high rpm.
 
VTEC at idle is possible - they are called TODA VTEC Killer Cams - VTEC isnt something magical its just a bigger cam lift that activates after a certain RPM

And rough idle isnt the word lol

The killer cams to be honest get rid of VTEC but its because its a constant huge cam lift so you would never need VTEC to give you a bigger lift

Yeah heard of them! wud be pretty kool alrite and come to think of it im pretty sure its those cams or similar that he wants to use when he gets a chance to fit ITB's to the F20c. id say they are awesome. If it idles anyway like it does on the standard VTEC cam then it will sound mean. :crazy:
 
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