Can a real life racer explain racing physics?

[ACE_N_RANDIE]

Okay, so when I used to play GT4 on the PS2 I always thought I was a pretty sweet driver. I always thought that if I could've played the game online against others I would have been a force to be reconed with...and then GT5 came out... I get online and frankly I'm not that great. I still can't get past most of the S license events. So I'm practicing and what not. But what I was hoping was to get some people on here who are more seasoned drivers in real life who could explain some of the physics that completely screw me up when I'm racing some of these cars.

FIRST ISSUE: When ABS is turned completely off I have a terrible time braking, it's as if the brakes completely lock up at the slightest tap. However when I turn ABS to just 1 on the settings I can slam them as hard as possible and nothing locks up and sends me into a wall. I guess I could start racing with it set on 1 but I would like to have all my lap times etc be all me. Without electronic help. So my question here is; are there anyone out there who race without ABS in the real world? Also, what is the key to braking without locking the system up everytime? Why are they locking up?

SECOND ISSUE: I never race with traction control on, in fact I never drive my personal vehicle with the traction control on(unless road conditions permit of course), however I find myself spinning out exiting corners with any rear wheel drive vehicle in the game. So I assume there is a balance obviously of turning and throttle control, my problem is that if I am cautious about it I end up leaving a corner far too slow and getting passed anyway, but if I go for it I end up with a bunch of wheel spin that either getts me passed anyway or sends me sideways. So basically I was wondering if there was any kind of formula or rule of thumb used when cornering to still get through quickly and still retain position? Also, I question the realism here because I never have experienced this in real life. Now I've never driven a 500bhp vehicle, which I'm sure is a large part of said formula, but I have my rear wheel drive 170hp and have never lost control of it exiting a corner running wide open. The amount of all out control loss in GT5 seems a little over the top to me. Can someone explain this? Also, when I begine to get wheel spin in GT5 is immediately let off the trottle completely and coast, when I do I gain traction again but the car gets jerked off course and I end up swerving around a little bit trying to get back into the line.

I really wish I could post a video or something, if you need more explanation on what I mean by anything let me know. Thanks for all your help in advance!
Peace

 

[Duke]

One important key to racing quickly is smoothness. It sounds as if modulating throttle and brakes is difficult for you. What controller are you using? At a minimum you want to be using the analog sticks. If you're already doing that, step up to a wheel and pedals. If you're already using a wheel, then you really just need to practice smoothly applying your control inputs.

Old-time racing great Jackie Stewart used to put it this way: imagine there is a large bowl on your hood with a tennis ball in it. This represents your traction. If you make harsh inputs, you're going to make the ball fly right out of the bowl, even at low speeds. But if you are smooth, you can roll the ball very far up the side of the bowl without it flying off.

 

[Rocket Punch]

A) You are over driving the car.
B) If you turn ABS off, set you brakes at 2~3 in the QTS.
C) Don't use aids like it is something that will clean up your mess, treat it like a safety net.
D) Slow in, Fast out.
E) Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast.

 

[the Interceptor]

Your problems are not uncommon, and Duke has already pointed you to the key. It does take some time to learn this even with a wheel, I for myself still can't control some RWD cars completely throughout a race. Again and again, I come to think that what this gaming experience is lacking (and I can't blame it) is physical input on the body. In a real car, you would feel that you brake too hard and the wheels are locking up, just like you would feel that you are losing the rear end coming out of a corner. The game can't give you those inputs, so you'll have to rely on what you see and what you hear, which is not easy at times.

Maybe this helps a bit with oversteer: I did a few laps in the tuned Vette on Daytona 750PP yesterday. More than ever, I noticed that giving the car too much throttle while having too much steering angle is what makes the rear end step out. So what I learned step by step is that I only feather the throttle a tiny little bit at first, and with slowly bringing the steering wheel back to the middle, I gently press the throttle further down. Imagine it like a countertrade: take away here, put in there. It does take some practice to get it right, and at times, I still spin out. But once you get the hang of it, you can pull a 600+ hp car out of a 2nd gear turn quite quickly and fluently.

 

[kikie]

When the speed of your car is still high, the forces are too high for the brakes to overcome, so they don't lock up. When the car is slowing down, the force are dimishing and the force applied by the brakes is higher than the force produce by the car's speed.

When you start to brake, apply maximum brake (not 100% but the amount of force on the brake pedal that is necessary to stop the car or slow down the car for a certain corner). When the car is slowing down, you must let go off the brake pedal gradually, dimishing the forces created by the brakes, and prevent the brakes from locking up.

 

[Juice476]

Well first are you using a wheel or pad? Second the thing about the brake's is right now we are using regular production car's with regular production car parts, not race cars with high end brake's, tyre's, high down force ect.... Third alot has to due with getting the right setup for the car, track and your driving style.

Now I will say this game does need the ability to mess with dead zone's, and sensitivity for wheel's. I know when I use my G25 without ABS when I have about 25% compression on the brake the game puts it a 100% brake, I dont know if its the same for other wheel's but there does seem to be some issue's with the G25.

But when I use R tyre's the locking seem's to get better, and when I tweak the bias it gets better yet. I have tried some advanced setup's that have really tweaked the dampers and springs and ride hieght ect.. that also seems to help.

Honestly this game is like every other sim out there when it come's to brakeing without abs it just takes alot of tweaking both on the car (software) and the wheel/pedal's (hardware). Then its practise from there just practise your trail brakeing.

 

[homeforsummer]

If you're using the pad then your braking issues without ABS are probably down to the buttons simply not having enough control. I'm not sure what it's like with a wheel and pedals, but locking the wheels is generally caused by two things - braking too hard and too quickly (sharply) for the conditions.

In a real car it's much easier to modulate the brakes than in a game - I've only locked my wheels on the road twice in 5.5 years of driving, both on wet and greasy country roads, once at around 40mph and the other time at only 20mph ish. Both were as a result of braking too harshly. I've locked the wheels in an MX5 race car before too, usually an inside front going into a corner, and again this is as a result of hard braking with some steering input breaking the limits of grip.

Hard braking and turning together without ABS are mutually exclusive. It's a sliding scale - the more you want to brake, the less you'll be able to turn, and vice-versa. Brake smoothly but quickly for a corner, then start to bleed off the brakes as you start to turn until you're turning as much as you want with no braking, then feed in the power in the same way, less turning as you put on more power, then full power when you're straight. Obviously different cars react in different ways, a 4WD will let you put more power on sooner.

Generally it's best to keep ABS on in the game - there's nowhere near the tactility of driving a real car.

 

[C.D]

The physics this game revolves around are simply ridiculously flawed and that's it; I can drive my moderately fast however-not-quite-a-supercar RL ride smoothly at a decent pace in the mountain roads nearby without any electronic aid (and I'm actually a pretty skilled driver) while I can barely steer around any curve of Eiger with a friggin 100k+ Euro sportscar at 40 Km/h without drifting hopelessly in the guard rail general direction or make the wheels spin like there's no tomorrow, which is just ludicrous.

To tell the truth, the fact people can handle a F1 car in Suzuka without any previous training should label this game as unrealistic even to the dullest observer, whether he's partially in denial or not but let's not go there.

I think that those who strive to advocate Polyphony Digital take on racing simulations should get a driving license before thinking they're good at even just understanding how driving works in a real environment and keep in consideration that these guys are still making a game after all, something that has got to be both fun and challenging to...15 yr old kids who've never driven anything aside from their BMX.

I've only locked my wheels on the road twice in 5.5 years of driving,

You better be joking, lol.

 

[kart racer]

I have never raced with abs in the real world but I do leave it on in the game as I can't get the same feedback as to what the tires are doing. As for tc, I have just started to turn it off as I have become familiar with the pad.

 

[homeforsummer]

The physics this game revolves around are simply ridicolously flawed and that's it; I can drive my moderately fast however-not-quite-a-supercar RL ride smoothly at a decent pace in the mountain roads nearby without any electronic aid (and I'm actually a pretty skilled driver) while I can barely steer around any curve of Eiger with a friggin 100k+ Euro sportscar at 40 Km/h without drifting hopelessly in the guard rail general direction or make the wheels spin like there's no tomorrow, which is just ridicolous.

To tell the truth, the fact people can handle a F1 car in Suzuka without any previous training should label this game as unrealistic even to the dullest observer, whether he's partially in denial or not but let's not go there.

I think that those who strive to advocate Polyphony Digital take on racing simulations should get a driving license before thinking they're good at even just understanding how driving works in a real environment and keep in consideration that these guys are still making a game after all, something that has got to be both fun and challenging to...15 yr old kids who've never driven anything aside from their BMX.

Right, where to start...

Ah yes, "what a load of tripe". There have been so many physics discussions about GT5P on this forum that I've lost count, and invariably we come down to the fact that people who criticise the physics in the manner you've done are simply those who aren't much good at the game.

Also, I don't spot a single piece of constructive advise for the original poster in your reply, maybe I'm not looking hard enough?

You better be joking, lol.

I'm sorry, what exactly are you implying with that comment and your hijacking of my user name in the quote?

Looking at your sig gives me the impression you've joined this forum for no other reason than to criticise GT.

 

[C.D]

I've probably joined this forum long before you did and I've been a faithful lurker since, just haven't felt like posting very often, does this make my opinion less valid than your questionable statements? Don't think so. Also, you'd think someone with an automotive blog thingy going knew better than this.

 

[homeforsummer]

I've probably joined this forum long before you did and I've been a faithful lurker since, just haven't felt like posting very often, does this make my opinion less valid than your questionable statements? Don't think so. Also, you'd think someone with an automotive blog thingy going knew better than this.

I'm still not following you. "Questionable statements"... My description of braking behaviour was fairly accurate to the best of my knowledge. How exactly is it questionable?

As for "you'd think someone with an automotive blog thingy going knew better than this"... why should me having locked my wheels in adverse driving conditions be something I should know better about? And what relevance does that have to me having a recently-started car blog? The connection between my writing ability and my driving ability is a very tenuous one and completely irrelevant to this thread.

I'll concur it appears you joined long before I did, and it appears your few posts have been equally as patronising as your posts to me have been.

 

[RedSuinit]

C.D clearly you are not the type to enjoy the Gran Turismo series. That can be seen by your sig. I have not been a member for forever, and you have been a member indeed longer than I have but, I put your posts to shame. Another thing, unlike you I have had criticizing thing to say and uplifting things to say, and you seem to in most of your posts, attack this game, and attack the people on this forum, if you dislike the game great, that's for you. Don't make us suffer reading your errant, and clearly lopsided posts.

One more thing, all because a car is expensive, doesn't mean its AMAZING and SUPERFAST. A stock 90-99 MKII MR2 Turbo, (which retailed for just over 15,000) could outrun and out drive even some Ferrari's. If you don't believe me go research on the web for yourself. My father in law OWNS one, and I have driven it, ON THE TRACK, and it handles similarly to the one in GT4 although I will admit, the snap oversteer is less, but one could also state that my Father in laws in a 91, and since Toyota designed the suspension to handle like a top notch sports car it had the tendency to overtsteer, but in 93+ models the standard suspension is softer and a LSD was added to reduce the tendency to snap oversteer due to the fact that the media displayed the 91-92 MKII MR2 as "dangerous to drive".

Luke

 

[Scaff]

The physics this game revolves around are simply ridiculously flawed and that's it; I can drive my moderately fast however-not-quite-a-supercar RL ride smoothly at a decent pace in the mountain roads nearby without any electronic aid (and I'm actually a pretty skilled driver) while I can barely steer around any curve of Eiger with a friggin 100k+ Euro sportscar at 40 Km/h without drifting hopelessly in the guard rail general direction or make the wheels spin like there's no tomorrow, which is just ludicrous.

Sorry but that's just simply not true, if you are having difficulties getting any car around the corners at Eiger at 40 km/h then I strongly suggest that the problem is with you rather than GT5.

Simply put I think you will find that your opinion will be in the minority here, and that includes a large number of people with a wealth of automotive experience. GT5's physics have been compared very favourably (and not just here at GT Planet) with some of the benchmark driving sims on the market. Look around here and you will find links to real world racing drivers who have commented on how accurate the simulation is.

Is it perfect? No of course it isn't, but the physics are most certainly not "ridiculously flawed", far from it. However here's an idea, rather than simply posting with attitude (and let me assure you here and now, it doesn't matter how long you have 'lurked' here, the AUP applies to all and unless you can contribute in a civilised manner then I suggest you go back to lurking), how about you explain exactly how the physics model is flawed in relation to the following points.

1. Load transfer
2. Yaw around the COG and its effect on tyre grip
3. Braking distances and what factors effect them
4. Tyre slip under acceleration and how its influenced by engine speed and torque
5. Traction circles and how GT handles the compromises

That should get you started, I'd like to know your views on how GT should be modelling these (with reference to how these effect vehicle dynamics in the real world) and why its "ridiculously flawed".

Drving a car 'fast' on the road is not comparable to driving one on the limit on a track or closed road, nor are the input devises we use (wheel or controller) going to ever match those of a car, nor do we get the same level of sensory feedback that we do in a real car. All these factors need to be taken into account, and none of then make the physics engine "ridiculously flawed".

To tell the truth, the fact people can handle a F1 car in Suzuka without any previous training should label this game as unrealistic even to the dullest observer, whether he's partially in denial or not but let's not go there.

By that token every racing sim ever made is unrealistic to a huge degree, which does beg the question. Why are you lurking at a site at which the main topic of conversation is racing and driving sims?

However read any article about people who have driven F1 cars and they will tell you that they can be driven to within a few seconds a lap of an F1 driver (a recent article in Autocar in the UK detailed exactly that), the difference in the real world is getting those extra couple of seconds, doing it consistently for an hour and a half or more, all while in racing conditions and managing the huge stresses placed on your body by the g loading.

In ANY racing sim these factors are removed and that makes a rather big difference to things, in reality very few people can consistently take 3gs of lateral load over 70+ laps. In a sim anyone can, because you don't get to feel that.

Fire up GT5 and every time you take a fast sweeper get two friends to push with all the force they can on your head and neck, do it for an hour or more and come back here and honestly tell us that anyone could endure that and produce consistent,fast lap times.

I think that those who strive to advocate Polyphony Digital take on racing simulations should get a driving license before thinking they're good at even just understanding how driving works in a real environment and keep in consideration that these guys are still making a game after all, something that has got to be both fun and challenging to...15 yr old kids who've never driven anything aside from their BMX.

I think you should think about the tone you use in any of your future posts.

That aside I think you will find that a good number of use here have had driving licences for quite a while, I've had mine now for 2 decades. In that time I've driven a good range of race and track prepared cars (from hatches and saloons to open wheel formula cars to Radicals), rally cars and most of the volume production cars sold in the UK. I've spent most of my adult life working in the motor industry, and close to ten years of that in training, including the areas of vehicle evaluation, driver training and vehicle dynamics.

Its given my the opportunity to drive a very wide range of cars, on a wide range of tracks and proving grounds in the UK and Europe. So given that I've had more than a good opportunity to experience what a range of cars feel like at and over the limit and studied in great detail the theory behind it as well I'm fairly well qualified to make a comparison between GT5 and the real world.


Regards

Scaff

 

[RedSuinit]

Whoa, someone remind me to never upset Scaff. (Cowers in fear in the corner )

Edit: Oh and Scaff, sorry about the double post, I wasn't thinking, thanks for fixing that for me.

Luke

 

[Lain]

Epic post, Scaff. I would love to see what C.D has to say in response.

 

[panjandrum]

The only real-life racing I do is Autocross, which is at very low speeds but with extremely sharp corners and lots of bits designed to upset the balance of a car. Very different than "real" racing, but still a lot of fun and difficult (been going, oh, about 3 years now and only recently took home my first "vintage class" win). I also owned and drove (sometimes in far too spirited a manner) a few quite powerful american muscle cars.

From my limited experience I do believe that GT5P is pretty darn accurate. Might need a bit of work in a few areas, but overall I think it is extremely good.

One of the best bits of advice I was given was "the slower you look like you are going, the faster you are going." Just a different way of saying smooth smooth smooth. From my limited experience this is 100% true. The more drifty, the later the braking, the more squealing the tires, the slower the lap time will be.

Every time I start to get frustrated with GT5P physics Scaff slaps me down and I come back to one thing:

Our pedals aren't good enough! That's really the biggest problem. It isn't a software problem, it is hardware. They are simply so much more sensitive than their real-life equivalents that it is very difficult learn to properly manage them. My advice is just practice practice practice. Learn to barely touch the gas and the brake. Also, you can mod many pedal sets to make them at least a bit stiffer and easier to control.

 

[BaldurKn]

Once again an excellent piece from Scaff.

Just wanted to quote him from another thread earlier about a similar discussion because you mentioned videos ACE_N_RANDIE, this is what he had to say then:

GT5 physics are a serious improvement over GT4, with all aspects of the cars handling much more accurately modelled, particularly that of weight transfer and oversteer. Its also now easier are more accurate in regard to throttle control (power over and lift off oversteer are far better modelled.

Now as far as it being overdone, and speaking as someone with a fairly large amount of track and proving ground experience, while GT5 is not perfect (and no sim is) its certainly not as bad as quite a few are making out.

Part of the issue is that we do not even come close to driving these cars in the same way you would in the real world, and we lack almost all of the non-visual feedback we rely on normally. Lets take the Ford GT as an example, it develops peak torque at 4,500rpm and has a fairly flat torque curve, so as a rough figure it will be at around 500ftlbs at 100mph in 2nd. The 2nd gear ratio is 1.71 and the final drive is 3.36 and as torque is multiplied by the gearing we get a torque figure at the wheels of over 2,800 ftlbs of torque or 1,400 ftlbs per rear tyre. Given its static weight dist of 57/43 (rear to front) and that some of that will of course get moved back under acceleration, lets be generous and say its 70/30, with a curb weight of 3454 lbs that's 1,200lbs of load on each rear tyre.

If we assume that these tyres have a fritional co-efficent of 1.0 with the road (which is again being generous), we can see that under straight line acceleration the tyre is already at its limit (1,200ft/lbs of torque on a tyre that can handle 1,208lbs), the moment you turn the wheel and add directional slip into the equation you are going to be over the tyres grip limit (without ever factoring the new load change from side to side that will reduce grip on one of the tyres).

Then add in that we are dealing with a mid-engined car, meaning that any change of direction and therefore loss of control is going to happen quickly and its no wonder that when driving them you need (unless you have one hell of a lot of talent) to accelerate and brake only when you are in a straight line and on long sweeping corners keep your throttle position and steering steady, with any inputs made smoothly.

Now I've posted the following video a few times (as have others), but it does illustrate quite clearly what happens when you don't keep the above in mind and just throw the throttle open while cornering in a low gear...



...and that Ferrari has a lot less torque to deal with than the GT.

Sims and games also have one other problem that exaggerates this, controllers and to a lesser degree wheels and pedals, allow us to go from zero throttle to wide open far more quickly that we would be able to or want to when driving a car in the real world.

Real world road driving bears no resemblance to how we drive in GT5 (or LFS or Enthusia, etc, etc), take a Ford GT out to the Eigar track and keep the throttle at no more than 40% open at any time, keep the revs below 4,000rpm and don't exceed say 70 - 80 mph and you will be in a situation that most 'spirited' road driving will be for a car of this nature. All of a sudden the GT become rather straightforward to drive and its only when we exceed these kind of parameters and step up to and over the limit that it becomes trickier (very much like the real world).

As for why 4wd cars are easier to drive in these situations, well go back to the Ford GT example I gave above and if it were 4wd the torque would be split between four rather than two wheels and as a rough approximation each would have 600 ft/lbs to deal with. Which is well below our 1,208 limit the two rear tyres were getting to.

Isn't physics fun.

Scaff


Edited to add - Road Rash it sounds a lot like you still have ASM switched on, as this will bog the cars down (and sometimes actually apply the throttle) to keep the car stable. Switching it off should help solve the problem.

Hope you don't mind me quoting you there Scaff 👍

 

[ACE_N_RANDIE]

Oh my sweet jee-wiz! I hardly expected this much feedback within 24 hours of posting... LIke I said in the original post thank you all a bunch(most of you). Within I think it was half an hour or an hour today I had already recieved the first three replys from Duke, Rocket Punch, and the interceptor. All of which helped massively. From there I am glad to report I got back to GT5(I had the day off of work) and proudly qualified second and third place in two of the S class events!
Also, wanted to give props to homeforsummer, juice476 for the in game advice and kikie for the real world explanation of why this happens.
And then, sure enough it happens, big round of congrats to C.D. for the lame post and throwing everyone off topic. Honestly, myself and C.D. are probably in and around the same skill level of racing, however instead of blaming the game which obviously was well researched(GT-TV anyone?), I know I'm doing something wrong and I work to fix it.
Scaff, obviously a moderator for a reason, thanks for your in depth analysis in the first post as well as your previous post brought in via BaldurKn, I would have been outside the car and crying like a school girl if that happened to me, maybe the amount of control loss isn't "over the top" like I stated before.
I found what LtiniusGT posted to be pretty interesting too. On a side note I've always liked the looks of the older MR2s, though I've never got to so much as sit in one. you reminded me of a video I watched way back a few years ago where a 40 or 50 thousand dollar Lotus Elise was able to stay with and eventually pass a Ferrari F50(proving technique and handling's reign over brute strength).
And finally Panjandrum, I probably have less real world experience than you do(congrats on your win by the way) I've been working on the slow is fast thing today. One more side note, I applaud auto-x, I've looked into it a lot but never could actually get the nerve to run my daily driver like that , just in case ya know? But I'm saving up to get a track car in a few years, it should be fun!

Anyway, I just wanted to recognize most of you individually for your time helping me out. I was able to read every post here and take something of value away from practically each one. I love the game and I look forward to seeing you all out on the tracks!
PSN: ACE_N_RANDIE

 

[kikie]

edit


Also, ingame, you have to choose the brake settings in the QTS very carefully in relation to the tires and cars you're driving. The more grip the tires generate, the higher the brake level in the QTS can be. A front engined car reacts differently than a mid engined car under braking. In GT5p generally, if you set the brake bias in the QTS much higher at the back than the front, the car will oversteer under braking. This is very uselful if you wnat to drift. Set the brake bias more to the front and the car will lock up the front wheels first resulting in understeer.

I'm not sure about this but I think I'm right:

the more grip the tires and the track (asphalt, dry, etc...) generates, the longer it takes for the brakes to lock up. So IRL with an F1 car, if the track is wet (it's raining hard) and the cars have full wets, they have to put the brake bias more to the back because the weight of an F1 car is higher on the rear wheels thus generating a little more grip than in front at these extreme wet conditions.

 

[klondike]

ACE_N_RANDIE

And anyone else who is interested to know more about how to drive a car fast should buy this book.

Going faster. by Skip Barber.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0837602262/?tag=gtplanet-20

Your not going to be a new Michael Schumacher by reading a book, but it will certanly give you some very good info, and a lot of things to think about when you are driving.

 

[kart racer]

The first time I tried GT5-P I was amazed as to how close this is. I have raced stockcars, and karts in real life and it only takes a split second to cross that fine line between control and crashing. It's a lot easier to cross that line in a game.

 

[Scaff]

Whoa, someone remind me to never upset Scaff. (Cowers in fear in the corner )

Edit: Oh and Scaff, sorry about the double post, I wasn't thinking, thanks for fixing that for me.

I'm not scary honestly, just very little time for nonsense.

No problem about the double post as well.

Hope you don't mind me quoting you there Scaff 👍

Not at all, it was very relevant to the discussion at hand.

ACE_N_RANDIE

And anyone else who is interested to know more about how to drive a car fast should buy this book.

Going faster. by Skip Barber.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0837602262/?tag=gtplanet-20

Your not going to be a new Michael Schumacher by reading a book, but it will certanly give you some very good info, and a lot of things to think about when you are driving.

The single most useful book I own and I would add my endorsement to it. It explains the mechanics of how a car/racecar works in fairly plain English.

Worth every penny of the cover rpice.


Now I have to apologise for not spotting this blinding contradiction in C.D's post last night. In my defence it was 2.30 in the morning and I had been drinking a bit.

The physics this game revolves around are simply ridiculously flawed

OK C.D so why would that be then....

I can barely steer around any curve of Eiger with a friggin 100k+ Euro sportscar at 40 Km/h without drifting hopelessly in the guard rail general direction or make the wheels spin like there's no tomorrow, which is just ludicrous.

....ahh so its because the cars are uncontrollable, anything else....

the fact people can handle a F1 car in Suzuka without any previous training should label this game as unrealistic even to the dullest observer, whether he's partially in denial or not but let's not go there.

.....OK, so its because people can drive an F1 car really fast with ease it unrealistic.



Hold on a second. GT5 is "ridiculously flawed" because you can't drive cars as easily as you think it should be possible and because people can drive cars quicker than you think should be possible!!!!!!!!!

Anyone else notice the slight problem with that, because I certainly do.

How about this C.D, those people who can drive the F2007 quickly (and a big difference exists on the leaderboards between the quickest and slowest) with pro physics on have taken a long time to get to grips with the car and learn to balance it on its limits. It strikes me that you however have just jumped in a car, got to a hairpin at eiger and dropped the throttle to the floor in a car with a lot of torque and in a low gear. Guess what, the video clip above shows exactly what happens when you do that in the real world.

If I can get the back end of a 320i (E90) to step out in 2nd gear by being brutal with the throttle and load transfer (and a whole 150bhp & 148 ft/lbs) then one of Italy's finest is certainly going to do it.


Regards

Scaff

 

[kart racer]

So in one word : practices !!!!!💡

 

[homeforsummer]

How about this C.D, those people who can drive the F2007 quickly (and a big difference exists on the leaderboards between the quickest and slowest) with pro physics on have taken a long time to get to grips with the car and learn to balance it on its limits.

You're not wrong there, I've quite a few top tens in standard cars on the time trial leaderboards but I struggle to break the top 100 in the F2007!

And thanks Scaff for finishing what C.D started, I didn't take particularly kindly to the things he was implying.

 

[Scaff]

So in one word : practices !!!!!💡

Its a good one and certainly the more of it you get the better you can be.

If I had to pick one work however it would be 'smoothness', the one thing good sims have in common with real world driving is that the punish you for over-driving the car, being harsh with your steering, brake and throttle inputs.

To quote some pointers from another book (Speed Secrets - again good but more about the driver than the car).

1. The less you do with the controls, the les chance of error
2. The slower you move, the faster the car moves
3. Squeeze the brake pedal on, and ease off
4. The throttle is not an on-off switch
5. The less you turn the steering wheel, the faster you will go
6. Keep steering to a minimum
7. You will never win a race without understanding how tyres work
8. Drive to the lowest possible slip angle that maintains maximum traction
9. Smooth is fast
10. Build up your tyres cornering forces slowly

Now that's a sample from 34 'tips' given throughout this book and its quite clear to see the pattern that develops, and every single one of them can be applied to GT will make you faster.

Regards

Scaff

 

[panjandrum]

I have also read some of the speed series mentioned above and found it very useful. I didn't see a link to it, so here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0760305188/?tag=gtplanet-20

I think the most useful section for me was the part on understanding how tires work, which explains why it is so important to be smooth in terms a layman can understand.

 

[RedSuinit]

Oh my sweet jee-wiz! I hardly expected this much feedback within 24 hours of posting... LIke I said in the original post thank you all a bunch(most of you). Within I think it was half an hour or an hour today I had already recieved the first three replys from Duke, Rocket Punch, and the interceptor. All of which helped massively. From there I am glad to report I got back to GT5(I had the day off of work) and proudly qualified second and third place in two of the S class events!
Also, wanted to give props to homeforsummer, juice476 for the in game advice and kikie for the real world explanation of why this happens.
And then, sure enough it happens, big round of congrats to C.D. for the lame post and throwing everyone off topic. Honestly, myself and C.D. are probably in and around the same skill level of racing, however instead of blaming the game which obviously was well researched(GT-TV anyone?), I know I'm doing something wrong and I work to fix it.
Scaff, obviously a moderator for a reason, thanks for your in depth analysis in the first post as well as your previous post brought in via BaldurKn, I would have been outside the car and crying like a school girl if that happened to me, maybe the amount of control loss isn't "over the top" like I stated before.
I found what LtiniusGT posted to be pretty interesting too. On a side note I've always liked the looks of the older MR2s, though I've never got to so much as sit in one. you reminded me of a video I watched way back a few years ago where a 40 or 50 thousand dollar Lotus Elise was able to stay with and eventually pass a Ferrari F50(proving technique and handling's reign over brute strength).
And finally Panjandrum, I probably have less real world experience than you do(congrats on your win by the way) I've been working on the slow is fast thing today. One more side note, I applaud auto-x, I've looked into it a lot but never could actually get the nerve to run my daily driver like that , just in case ya know? But I'm saving up to get a track car in a few years, it should be fun!

Anyway, I just wanted to recognize most of you individually for your time helping me out. I was able to read every post here and take something of value away from practically each one. I love the game and I look forward to seeing you all out on the tracks!
PSN: ACE_N_RANDIE

Know what else is pretty cool, I know a guy who owns a Lotus Elise 111R and man can he drive it! (He's never let me drive it yet, but one day ) and I know a guy who owns a MR2 Spyder. Well the 111R comes with the Toyota 2ZZ-GE engine in it stock, and the 2zz is what my friend dropped into his Spyder (for a couple grand) and make ~210 hp at the flywheel (~195 at the wheels) and he too can drive it. Well with both being about the same skill wise, There times are close to identical. With the Lotus usually running an average of .5-1s faster than the MR2. Just like I said before more expensive isn't always better. The Spyder retailed for about 18,000 when it was first released (they stopped selling them in the US in 05, but kept selling them in Japan which is a little upsetting cause the 2008 model comes with the 2ZZ-GE stock and is turbocharged.), and the 111R retails for about 47,000 almost the same performance for almost 30,000 less.

ON TOPIC: The best piece of advice I have ever gotten is smooth! Smooth throttle AND brake control, smooth when turning the steering wheel, snapping the wheel from one side to the other is a sure way to lock up your tires. 2nd best, slow in fast out.

Situation 1: Say you can make it around a turn leading into a straightaway going 55 mph, however at that speed if you get back on the gas after hitting the apex, you are going to go off, or will spin out meaning you will have to wait longer to get back on the gas meaning an exit speed of let's say 60 mph.
For arguments sake lets say you reach the end of the straight going 78 mph, and a final time of lets say 12.6 seconds.

Situation 2: However, if you slow down to let us say 48 mph you can get on the throttle earlier and you can pick up speed through the tun resulting in a SLIGHTLY faster exit speed (say 63 mph) BUT your car is already accelerating FASTER than in situation 1 as well resulting in you making a much better time than is situation 1. Meaning you reach the end of the straight going 84 with a final time of lets say 10.8 seconds.

(yes these figures are made up, but if you doubt what I have said ask around and MANY others will confirm that this logic holds true.)

Hope some of this helped!

I'm not scary honestly, just very little time for nonsense.

No problem about the double post as well.

Now I have to apologise for not spotting this blinding contradiction in C.D's post last night. In my defence it was 2.30 in the morning and I had been drinking a bit.




OK C.D so why would that be then....




....ahh so its because the cars are uncontrollable, anything else....




.....OK, so its because people can drive an F1 car really fast with ease it unrealistic.



Hold on a second. GT5 is "ridiculously flawed" because you can't drive cars as easily as you think it should be possible and because people can drive cars quicker than you think should be possible!!!!!!!!!

Anyone else notice the slight problem with that, because I certainly do.

How about this C.D, those people who can drive the F2007 quickly (and a big difference exists on the leaderboards between the quickest and slowest) with pro physics on have taken a long time to get to grips with the car and learn to balance it on its limits. It strikes me that you however have just jumped in a car, got to a hairpin at eiger and dropped the throttle to the floor in a car with a lot of torque and in a low gear. Guess what, the video clip above shows exactly what happens when you do that in the real world.

If I can get the back end of a 320i (E90) to step out in 2nd gear by being brutal with the throttle and load transfer (and a whole 150bhp & 148 ft/lbs) then one of Italy's finest is certainly going to do it.


Regards

Scaff

I was being silly, but the point I was trying to get to was I'm glad I'm not C.D right about now.

Luke

 

[Raitziger]

Jackie Stewart said that do not step on the throttle unless you know you do not have to take it off durring corner. It is very easy to apply to most corners you will do better.

 

[H3rmaN]

This is quite interesting.