Can a real life racer explain racing physics?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ACE_N_RANDIE
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I Noticed CD hasn't posted since his thrashing ..

Back on topic all you can do is keep on it keep practicing. What i do when i I'm having trouble with a new car is take it very slow around the track a few times .. Nothing fast just on Time trial and get a feel for how everything is... What the power feels like on the straights and how you could put that power into the corner.. Once you start building up speed take the corners with no throttle and just add a little bit more everytime you go around you will soon find the limits of the car.. and one more thing .. pick a car and stick with it untill your happy ... For instance dont drive a Focus them jump into a f430 then a Golf , TT .. the drive style ( FF / MR / AW ) with mess with your head
 
VA10
I Noticed CD hasn't posted since his thrashing ..
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I haven't because it would've been a waste of time either way, arguing rather obvious points (doesn't take a degree in rocket surgery to recognize GT5:P flaws, seriously) with a bunch of brainwashed fanboys (I've most likely played GT5:P more intensely than half of the tools blabbing on these threads however, unlike them, I've also been able to keep my own opinion) isn't going to further amuse anyone, besides I was purposely trolling for the hell of it but none of you realized that and fell for it pretty thoroughly like true internet-illiterate dumbasses.

Ya'll so predictable I've been having fun practicing my english in these astoundingly pointless debates since last year using the exact same strategy each time and haven't failed to get my fair share of laughs since. Godspeed.
 
So you got nothing better to do than to involve people in pointless debates for over a year, and we are the internet dumbasses?

Sorry, but :lol:
 
C.D
I haven't because it would've been a waste of time either way, arguing rather obvious points (doesn't take a degree in rocket surgery to recognize GT5:P flaws, seriously) with a bunch of brainwashed fanboys (I've most likely played GT5:P more intensely than half of the tools blabbing on these threads however, unlike them, I've also been able to keep my own opinion) isn't going to further amuse anyone, besides I was purposely trolling for the hell of it but none of you realized that and fell for it pretty thoroughly like true internet-illiterate dumbasses.

Ya'll so predictable I've been having fun practicing my english in these astoundingly pointless debates since last year using the exact same strategy each time and haven't failed to get my fair share of laughs since. Godspeed.
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Godspeed indeed - check your PMs.

You have also singularly failed to argue anything at all.

Simply stating opinion does not make something fact, it just makes you opinionated.

I notice that when actually challenged to back-up your opinion with some substance you instead simply further insult people and actually admit to trolling to start an argument.

This is not something that will be tolerated here at all, regardless of your low post count, if you wish to retain the ability to post at all you will modify your behaviour.

This site does not exist for your personal amusement, not is it a place to start arguments just to practice your English, neither will be tolerated again.

Now either back up your opinions with some substance (as I have VERY clearly asked you to do already) or stop posting; because if it doesn't take a degree in 'rocket surgery' (I think you might mean Rocket Science) to recognise GT5:P's flaws then I expect you to be able to explain them in detail with reference to real world examples.



Scaff
 
Coming back to Scaff's point about getting his beamer to over steer. Yes, I agree, but if I think about what happens in that situation I can feel the weight transfer and I can feel the back of the car go light via my sense of balance (that slightly sick feeling in your stomach as you wonder if you're going to make the corner or not!).

In the game I have to use other cues to tell me what's going on and that's something I'm still getting used to. Mind you spending too much time playing MGS4 isn't helping with that one :-)
 
This is not related to the topic so please excuse me for one moment.

I am new to the game and even new to racing games but i do have a wheel (driving force gt) and I suck but I am very eager and trying to learn and have read Scaffs tuning guide a couple times.....by the way thanks scaff. Also I see many of you are real racers which i think is really cool.....and would like to Learn....but im going off on a tangent so let me get to the point.

Will Scaff or anyone please give me a good setting for the BMW M3...I already saw the one that LION DEN posted and it was nice but I still cant seem to get it right. Plus I believe that was specifically tuned for Suzuka......I have been trying to tune this car for almost a week with only little improvement. I know not many ppl drive it in the game but it is my dream car and would LOVE to see it compete because i believe in the real world it does, but definetely not in the game, especially the cars that are in its class.
I hope to improve my driving with time; so if anyone with experience can take just a moment to let me know what works with them when using teh M3 on a fast track like Daytona for example...... please anything...Im going crazy.....literallly...lol

Thanks in advance
 
When will they have accurately weighted pedals with Force Feedback? I'd pay a stack to have a wheel with brake pedals that are properly heavy and an accelerator pedal that shudders when TCS comes on.

Scaff, you really do know your stuff, guys like us could learn a lot from you. The vid of the guy losing it in his Ferrari was priceless. It does highlight how tricky it is to drive a high powered sports car at ANY sort of speeds.

We have what was once considered the 'greatest public road in the world' and it's known as The Great Ocean Road, which is a spectacular journey around the southern coast of Victoria and goes up into the highlands and through some national parks. Its a favourite drive of mine and my idea of 'spirited driving' is generally fanging the car hard through corners, relying on suspension and grip and I'd only ever open up the throttle full on LONG stretches of road. Running a boosted car with 15psi means that full throttle in short sprints ends up with clouds of rubber and no forward momentum.

It's much the same in GT. A realistic drive around Eiger would have full throttle being applied on two or three straights, but people are using it mid-corner which is bound to result in tears.

Great thread!

;)
 
Just an idea, hehe. No reasoning behind it really, a lot of performance cars have TCS kickback through the accelerator because the blinking light doesn't always work. Haven't you driven any cars that have TCS feedback?
 
C.D, why dont you just try to back up your claim rather than focusing all your efforts on avoiding a sensible discussion. If you genuinely knew the physics were seriously flawed and you knew why, you should have no problem in discussing it in detail. As it stands you're just an internet mouth with no substance to any of the words you type and zero credibility.

For the record I was not impressed with GT4 very much and forum regulars here can attest to that. GT5:P on the other hand has pushed the series into a favourable standing, even as Scaff said compared to the higher regarded sims out there. No one will argue that you should or shouldn't like the game, if you don't like the game that is a valid choice. But to not like it because the physics are seriousely flawed is simply false, they aer flawed but they are in every sim out there. GT5:P compares well though.
 
C.D

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=P52bmJXYQPQ

4:54, Mary Sue.
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Rocket Scientist - "a scientist specializing in rocketry: now chiefly a figurative or ironic usage in negative constructions"


Now either answer the questions you have been given or stop posting here.

The useless spam and nonsense you have so far contributed (and I use that term loosly) will stop, or you will find your ability to post here at GT Planet ends. You have been given more than enough warning about your behaviour.


Scaff
 
C.D is probably sitting at the other end of his computer screen laughing his head off thinking he's so funny. Got a question for you, ever wonder why you're the only one laughing at your jokes. Still don't et it? Oh well, I tried. Oh, and also you do realize he was calling Bush and idiot right. Or, maybe that was the point, you were trying to call us idiots? Therefore, if we are idiots we know nothing about cars. So tell me, since I know nothing about cars, and neither does Scaff, then please instruct us as to how weight distribution over the suspension works, and how it is significant. Or how the coefficient of friction on the tires, combined with weight of the car, speed going around the curve, and the torque created by the engine when you get on the throttle coming out of a curve could cause oversteer, in real life since you know so much almighty C.D.

Luke
 
AERO_HDT
Just an idea, hehe. No reasoning behind it really, a lot of performance cars have TCS kickback through the accelerator because the blinking light doesn't always work. Haven't you driven any cars that have TCS feedback?
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No I have never driven a car with Traction control pedal feedback (well I never have traction control on anyway if I can help it)

I would have thought ABS pedal feedback would be prefered before Traction control. What i would really want with the padals is a pressure sensored brake rather than travel sensored.
 
C.D
I've probably joined this forum long before you did and I've been a faithful lurker since...
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That's like saying I'm the driver of a Lotus just because I park next to one every day. A few more actions make all the difference between true and false.
 
I have to agree with C.D on some points, although he IS exaggerating. GT5p's physics IS relatively weak as compared to the other racing sims on the market (pc). The higher powered RWD cars and to a lesser extent the high powered 4WD cars (Nissan GTR) drive almost like they are on ice. The physics here feels very similar to GTR1.

Now of course, I never drove any of those cars in real life so the only comparisons I can draw are to other racing sims, and in no racing sim that I've played do the high powered cars drive like that (except for GTR1 of course). So of course there is the possibility that gt5p and GTR1 (build on an aging highly criticized ISI engine) are in fact the most realistic ...... but I highly doubt that.

Anyways, maybe of one experienced RL racers here might convince me otherwise on the above, but you'd never convince me that the F1 Ferrari is realistic. That 'thing' drives like a hover craft! I know F1 cars are supposed to have crazy downforce, but common this is just ridiculous! You'd also expect that slamming the gas on gear 1 or 2 from a standstill would spin you out, but no, that's not the case here. Anyways, hopefully they will keep improving the physics instead of just adding new cars and tracks.

Ps: Pro physics, all aids off, g25 wheel.
 
iam220
I have to agree with C.D on some points, although he IS exaggerating. GT5p's physics IS relatively weak as compared to the other racing sims on the market (pc). The higher powered RWD cars and to a lesser extent the high powered 4WD cars (Nissan GTR) drive almost like they are on ice. The physics here feels very similar to GTR1.

Now of course, I never drove any of those cars in real life so the only comparisons I can draw are to other racing sims, and in no racing sim that I've played do the high powered cars drive like that (except for GTR1 of course). So of course there is the possibility that gt5p and GTR1 (build on an aging highly criticized ISI engine) are in fact the most realistic ...... but I highly doubt that.

Anyways, maybe of one experienced RL racers here might convince me otherwise on the above, but you'd never convince me that the F1 Ferrari is realistic. That 'thing' drives like a hover craft! I know F1 cars are supposed to have crazy downforce, but common this is just ridiculous! You'd also expect that slamming the gas on gear 1 or 2 from a standstill would spin you out, but no, that's not the case here. Anyways, hopefully they will keep improving the physics instead of just adding new cars and tracks.

Ps: Pro physics, all aids off, g25 wheel.
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No one here has claimed that GT5:P is a perfect sim, hell even PD themselves say its not a finished product, rather more a constant work in progress.

What is not however is flawed to the degree that C.D has claimed, not even remotely close to being that flawed at all.

I speak from personal experience in a very wide variety of cars, and for me the main issues with GT5:P at present (and I have mentioned these many times, over many threads) mainly relate to how stepping over the edge is fed-back to you and how the controls are too sensitive with a controller (its far too easy to go from zero throttle to wide open throttle in a manner you would never do in a real car).

That said I can however confirm that stepping well over the limits in a powerful RWD or 4WD car can and does punish you in the real world, the video posted earlier clearly shows what can happen, even at low speeds.

A real transition from understeer to oversteer does occur on the limit, but the sensitive nature of the throttle in the current build makes it all to easy to push right past without noticing.

As for the F2007, I have to admit I can get it to step out of line in lower gears if I'm not careful. I would however ask, what do you have the wheel set-up for in terms of steering degrees? If its 900 then that will explain part of the issue, an F1 car has around 190degrees of steering from lock-to-lock.

Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
As for the F2007, I have to admit I can get it to step out of line in lower gears if I'm not careful. I would however ask, what do you have the wheel set-up for in terms of steering degrees? If its 900 then that will explain part of the issue, an F1 car has around 190degrees of steering from lock-to-lock.
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Maybe slightly off topic with this question -

But is there an easy way to adjust this in game or on the wheel? I use a G25, but did not realize you could adjust this.
 
EDK
Maybe slightly off topic with this question -

But is there an easy way to adjust this in game or on the wheel? I use a G25, but did not realize you could adjust this.
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Only in the quick tunig part of the game, before you start to drive. I believe you can set the degrees form 30 till 50.
 
kikie
Only in the quick tunig part of the game, before you start to drive. I believe you can set the degrees form 30 till 50.
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He's talking about lock to lock on the steering wheel, not max turning angle for the tires.
 
Scaff
No one here has claimed that GT5:P is a perfect sim, hell even PD themselves say its not a finished product, rather more a constant work in progress.

What is not however is flawed to the degree that C.D has claimed, not even remotely close to being that flawed at all.

I speak from personal experience in a very wide variety of cars, and for me the main issues with GT5:P at present (and I have mentioned these many times, over many threads) mainly relate to how stepping over the edge is fed-back to you and how the controls are too sensitive with a controller (its far too easy to go from zero throttle to wide open throttle in a manner you would never do in a real car).

That said I can however confirm that stepping well over the limits in a powerful RWD or 4WD car can and does punish you in the real world, the video posted earlier clearly shows what can happen, even at low speeds.

A real transition from understeer to oversteer does occur on the limit, but the sensitive nature of the throttle in the current build makes it all to easy to push right past without noticing.

As for the F2007, I have to admit I can get it to step out of line in lower gears if I'm not careful. I would however ask, what do you have the wheel set-up for in terms of steering degrees? If its 900 then that will explain part of the issue, an F1 car has around 190degrees of steering from lock-to-lock.

Regards

Scaff
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The car behavior in that video you posted can be replicated in pretty much any sim. Like you said; driving WELL over the limits in any car is gonna cost you.

In say, Lfs, when I go slightly over the limit using the high powered cars, I usually catch my slide and keep my car in control. In gt5p when I do this, my ass is handed to me and my car goes flying. What really gets to me is that I loose grip driving no where near the limit as well! Like I said, it feels as though I'm on ice.

Don't get me wrong, I think Gt5p is a great game. It's doing a lot of things right, but one area it needs to improve on is the physics, they are rather unsatisfactory when compared to the pc's offerings. Although, it's definitely a step in the right direction from GT4. Hopefully, improving physics are one of PD's main priorities.

Also, I don't see how the throttle in GT5p is any more sensitive then any other racing sim. Care to enlighten me?

Finally, in regards to the F2007, while it's true that F1 steering wheels are no where near 900 degrees in rotation, they are also no where near 40 degree tyre steering lock which is what it's defaulted to in gt5p. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing the steering lock would be somewhere in the mid-teens? So turning the wheel 190 degrees on my g25 should give me a similar (though slightly lower, I think) steering angle to a real F1 car when turning at 190 as well. Besides, my comparison was to other racing sims not a real F1, in LFS for example I use 450 degrees with 20 degree lock. Which is the same steering ratio as 900/40.
 
iam220
The car behavior in that video you posted can be replicated in pretty much any sim. Like you said; driving WELL over the limits in any car is gonna cost you.
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100% agree with that.


iam220
In say, Lfs, when I go slightly over the limit using the high powered cars, I usually catch my slide and keep my car in control. In gt5p when I do this, my ass is handed to me and my car goes flying. What really gets to me is that I loose grip driving no where near the limit as well! Like I said, it feels as though I'm on ice.
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The issue here is that when you look at the corner limits, based on known radius, vehicle speed and grip levels, then GT5:P does not loose traction below the limit.

Take the 130R corner at Suzuki as an example, in a car capable of 1g cornering the maximum cornering speed should be aroun 80mph. Take pretty much any sports car in the game, slap N2 tyres on it and you can drive around that corner at 80mph all day without loosing traction.

The grip limits are not the issue with GT5:P at all.


iam220
Don't get me wrong, I think Gt5p is a great game. It's doing a lot of things right, but one area it needs to improve on is the physics, they are rather unsatisfactory when compared to the pc's offerings. Although, it's definitely a step in the right direction from GT4. Hopefully, improving physics are one of PD's main priorities.
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Given that the 1st August update has physics tweaks in it I think we can fairly safely say that they are.



iam220
Also, I don't see how the throttle in GT5p is any more sensitive then any other racing sim. Care to enlighten me?
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I disagree, the throttle progression in GT5:P is a problem and one that needs either custom settings or at the very least changing.

An entire thread exists on here about it.

I will use the controller as an example as the issue is easier to see with that, and its quite a simple one to see. 100% wide open throttle is reached with the 'throttle' button only depressed to around 65%, the remaining 35% of travel is meaningless. The same applies (to a lesser degree) with wheel and pedal set-ups.

Now for some this is not an issue, for me (and many others) its a pain, as it makes wide open throttle far to easy to hit with only a slight change in pressure. Which makes balancing the car around a corner and/or gentle and progressive opening of the throttle a real 'challenge'.

The ability to map the throttle opening to the 'pedal' (be it an actual pedal or a controller stick or trigger) would make a massive difference.

It would help address the exact issue you mentioned above about catching the car, half the trick with it in GT5:P is actually being able to accuratly balance the throttle, over what is in the real world a fine edge. The stupidly early saturation point in GT5:P makes this far too tricky.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this is the only issue with GT5:P, far from it, but getting this sorted would make quite a significant difference.

The other issue I have with GT5:P is that the cars need to understeer more, particularly under power. While it does happen currently, the transition to oversteer is too quick and too easy to achieve.

If we have to have a 'set' throttle mapping, then personally I hope that PD 'steal' the settings from Enthusia, because they suited me down to the ground. The first 60% of the pedal/stick/buttons travel covered aroun 0 - 40% throttle opeing, with the remaining 40% covering the remaining 60%. Well that what it felt like to me, and it works.


Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
I will use the controller as an example as the issue is easier to see with that, and its quite a simple one to see. 100% wide open throttle is reached with the 'throttle' button only depressed to around 65%, the remaining 35% of travel is meaningless. The same applies (to a lesser degree) with wheel and pedal set-ups.

Now for some this is not an issue, for me (and many others) its a pain, as it makes wide open throttle far to easy to hit with only a slight change in pressure. Which makes balancing the car around a corner and/or gentle and progressive opening of the throttle a real 'challenge'.
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Agree with all this, it's what made doing the GT Academy thing especially difficult with the controller. With full 0-100% throttle control for 0-100% pressure on the button/stick/trigger (whatever you use) then many of the high powered cars would be more progressive.

The other issue I have with GT5:P is that the cars need to understeer more, particularly under power. While it does happen currently, the transition to oversteer is too quick and too easy to achieve.
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Agree with this too. I think only a hint more understeer would be enough for it to feel right. One of the sweetest balanced cars in the game, the '96 Elise, is quite easy to judge understeer/oversteer on, around turn one at Suzuka you can deliberately push the car into understeer powering out of the corner despite the mid-rear drive setup. It shows the balance is almost there.
 

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