Can a real life racer explain racing physics?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ACE_N_RANDIE
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A bit off-topic, but regarding real-life racing. Some comments I made in regards to the dashboard cam in several racing games being "too far back" and seeing too much of the dashboard.

MustangSVT
This is because of peripheral and focus vision. In real life when driving a car (really fast on a track anyway, which I have done), your vision encompasses everything around you, and your focus vision is only focused on looking ahead (not looking directly forward, but looking "ahead"). You use peripheral vision for immediate parts of the track and you just quickly glance down sometimes to the RPM for shifting. That's it.

When playing any kind of game, it'll be hard if not impossible to mimic this since the monitor/TV is not big enough to encompass things around you in such a way that even though you're in the ****pit view, your focus vision only sees the road ahead. Due to looking at a monitor which doesn't take up all your vision, your focus vision also sees the dashboard and all that, whereas in real life your peripheral vision is seeing the dashboard and the immediate parts of the track, not your focus vision.

Why is vision important? Because you must focus on what is ahead of you rather than what is directly in front of you so that you can prepare yourself for the correct driving maneuver. By using your peripheral vision for the immediate trackside (i.e. right on corner apex) and focus vision on ahead, you are mentally preparing yourself for what you should be doing in terms of steering wheel input, pedal input, gear change, etc. The better you are at looking ahead and using peripheral vision for immediate trackside, the better you will be at understanding what you should be doing and the smoother you will be.
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I don't think the dash cam is too far back in GT5. I think what makes the view confusing is that the view you see in GT is what you'd see in your peripheral vision in real life, as well as the view you're focusing on. In terms of where you're actually sitting in the car it's spot on.

Many racing games with in-car cams sit too close to the windscreen in my opinion, you're getting a better view of the circuit or whatever but the view you're getting is the same as if you were sitting with your chin a foot away from the steering wheel.

So yeah, I think GT5 has it right 👍
 
homeforsummer
I don't think the dash cam is too far back in GT5. I think what makes the view confusing is that the view you see in GT is what you'd see in your peripheral vision in real life, as well as the view you're focusing on. In terms of where you're actually sitting in the car it's spot on.

Many racing games with in-car cams sit too close to the windscreen in my opinion, you're getting a better view of the circuit or whatever but the view you're getting is the same as if you were sitting with your chin a foot away from the steering wheel.

So yeah, I think GT5 has it right 👍
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I didn't say dash cam is too far back in GT5. This was my reply to a comment that someone else had made on another forum (regarding another game). I'm just explaining what you should be doing if you were racing in real life.
 
Scaff
100% agree with that.

I disagree, the throttle progression in GT5:P is a problem and one that needs either custom settings or at the very least changing.

An entire thread exists on here about it.

I will use the controller as an example as the issue is easier to see with that, and its quite a simple one to see. 100% wide open throttle is reached with the 'throttle' button only depressed to around 65%, the remaining 35% of travel is meaningless. The same applies (to a lesser degree) with wheel and pedal set-ups.

Now for some this is not an issue, for me (and many others) its a pain, as it makes wide open throttle far to easy to hit with only a slight change in pressure. Which makes balancing the car around a corner and/or gentle and progressive opening of the throttle a real 'challenge'.

The ability to map the throttle opening to the 'pedal' (be it an actual pedal or a controller stick or trigger) would make a massive difference.

It would help address the exact issue you mentioned above about catching the car, half the trick with it in GT5:P is actually being able to accuratly balance the throttle, over what is in the real world a fine edge. The stupidly early saturation point in GT5:P makes this far too tricky.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this is the only issue with GT5:P, far from it, but getting this sorted would make quite a significant difference.

The other issue I have with GT5:P is that the cars need to understeer more, particularly under power. While it does happen currently, the transition to oversteer is too quick and too easy to achieve.

If we have to have a 'set' throttle mapping, then personally I hope that PD 'steal' the settings from Enthusia, because they suited me down to the ground. The first 60% of the pedal/stick/buttons travel covered aroun 0 - 40% throttle opeing, with the remaining 40% covering the remaining 60%. Well that what it felt like to me, and it works.


Regards

Scaff
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Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

So what you're saying is that you want a non-linear throttle? Is GT5 totally linear or is the throttle curve opposite to the one you descried for enthusia? Personally I've always played with a completely linear throttle and it's worked for me. Yet, if I had to choose between an upward curve and a downward curve I would definitely go for the upward curve like the one you described for enthusia.

Well regardless if it's a control issue or a physics issue, the higher powered cars are more difficult to drive then they should be. This is something that should definitely be addressed by PD. Agreed?

Hopefully, the Aug 1st physics update, specifically the one that's supposed to give you greater control with Racing and Sport tires will in fact address this issue. :)
 
iam220
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

So what you're saying is that you want a non-linear throttle? Is GT5 totally linear or is the throttle curve opposite to the one you descried for enthusia? Personally I've always played with a completely linear throttle and it's worked for me. Yet, if I had to choose between an upward curve and a downward curve I would definitely go for the upward curve like the one you described for enthusia.

Well regardless if it's a control issue or a physics issue, the higher powered cars are more difficult to drive then they should be. This is something that should definitely be addressed by PD. Agreed?

Hopefully, the Aug 1st physics update, specifically the one that's supposed to give you greater control with Racing and Sport tires will in fact address this issue. :)
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In an ideal world I would like to be able to play around with the throttle mapping to whatever degree I wanted, but failing that either straight 1:1 mapping or an upwards curve would be ideal.

Currently GT5:P runs with a downwards curve, pretty much all the throttle is in the first 60% of travel (wide open throttle appears to be around the 65% point) and its, for me at least, a bit part of the problem.

I personally think its mainly a control issue, as the higher powered cars are most sensitive to rough throttle, brake and steering inputs. Now while this is realistic, smooth is always better, its a little overdone and made more difficulty why the over-sensitive and twitchy controls.

As I mentioned earlier, switching to a wheel massively reduces this problem, if its enough is an arguable point, but for me it does need to be addressed.

On the physics side of the coin, I covered it earlier. I don't believe that oversteer is overdone, rather that understeer is not prominent enough and currently too easy to transition past into oversteer.

I don't however want to overstate the point here, as its not a million miles away at all, what I would hate to see is PD go overboard and ruin things.


Regards

Scaff
 
MustangSVT
I didn't say dash cam is too far back in GT5. This was my reply to a comment that someone else had made on another forum (regarding another game). I'm just explaining what you should be doing if you were racing in real life.
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So... it had absolutely no relevance to the thread or any of the previous comments in the thread, nor physics...
 
homeforsummer
So... it had absolutely no relevance to the thread or any of the previous comments in the thread, nor physics...
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This is from the original poster in post #1:

Okay, so when I used to play GT4 on the PS2 I always thought I was a pretty sweet driver. I always thought that if I could've played the game online against others I would have been a force to be reconed with...and then GT5 came out... I get online and frankly I'm not that great. I still can't get past most of the S license events. So I'm practicing and what not. But what I was hoping was to get some people on here who are more seasoned drivers in real life who could explain some of the physics that completely screw me up when I'm racing some of these cars.
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If he does what I said more (look ahead) and consider racing line and slow in/fast out, he will gradually have a better understanding of the physics involved. Obviously this is easier to feel and understand when driving really fast in real life on a real race track. The physics you encounter in real life will depend on the car. On my car for example (FF), I know that has a responsive turn-in, it's nose-heavy (so you MUST brake in a straight line). That's just some examples I've observed from driving my car on the race track.

If he would like to know how to go faster in certain cars (which is what it seems like), this is my general advice:

- always hit the apex of a turn, be it early,mid or late-apex (depending on racing line chosen)
- the less steering input, the smoother and faster
- you want an exit speed as good as possible (usually)
- try to brake in a straight line always
- whenever slamming on the gas with any car, consider beforehand how much power you're sending to which wheels, so apply throttle accordingly
- any drivetrain/engine configuration can be adjusted for by driving appropriately with how you choose the apex of a turn being very important
 
My apologies then 👍 Your original post didn't make that entirely clear but I get why you posted it now.
 
klondike
ACE_N_RANDIE

And anyone else who is interested to know more about how to drive a car fast should buy this book.

Going faster. by Skip Barber.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0837602262/?tag=gtplanet-20

Your not going to be a new Michael Schumacher by reading a book, but it will certanly give you some very good info, and a lot of things to think about when you are driving.
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I read this book, and I highly recommend it. Read it before I took my race classes and started competing...It really help out everything into perspective.

IMHO, I believe that the physics in the game is quite accurate. I haven't driven much high powered FR cars, only the S2000 in my home track...and I have to say, that is only a 240HP car, and the tail out of slow corners can be a handful...even with its low torque. I look at GT5P as a way to practice and improve my skills too, so if it is a bit too sensitive, I don't mind, as it will make me a better driver in RL.

As an advice to the OP...I find, like almost everybody else here, that it is quite easy to over drive the car. Since we don't have force feedback on the brake pedal, I used to lock the wheels a lot too. What helped me is to use some imagination, and to ease off the brake as I slow down, much like what I do in RL when tracking any car. What we don't feel also is the weight transfer...the stronger you brake, and especially if you don't increase the spring rate, the more weight is put in the front of the car, the harder it is to turn it in.

What I did, was to play the events, but instead of trying to win, I just started to drive a clean lap...and slowly build up my speed lap after lap, just like in RL. The problem with GT games is that we have nerves of steel, since it is a consequence-free environment. Try to drive a race, without hitting anyone, and hitting all the apex (plural?) no matter what place you finish. Slowly discover the correct limit of the car. In RL, when I first drive a car in the track, since the conditions change greatly each time I go out...I drive a warm up lap first, and slowly warm everything up before getting to race pace. I find that this is a good exercise to knowing the limit of the car that particular time of day.

Oh, what I find a bit unrealistic with GT5P, is when you miss the apex, just by a bit, you tend to get thrown out pretty far...whereas if you hit the apex, your car will corner like it was on rails! In real life, if you miss the apex a bit, it is still acceptable, and your grip will still be thesame as if you hit the apex.
 
ACE_N_RANDIE
SECOND ISSUE: I never race with traction control on, in fact I never drive my personal vehicle with the traction control on(unless road conditions permit of course), however I find myself spinning out exiting corners with any rear wheel drive vehicle in the game. So I assume there is a balance obviously of turning and throttle control, my problem is that if I am cautious about it I end up leaving a corner far too slow and getting passed anyway, but if I go for it I end up with a bunch of wheel spin that either getts me passed anyway or sends me sideways. So basically I was wondering if there was any kind of formula or rule of thumb used when cornering to still get through quickly and still retain position? Also, I question the realism here because I never have experienced this in real life. Now I've never driven a 500bhp vehicle, which I'm sure is a large part of said formula, but I have my rear wheel drive 170hp and have never lost control of it exiting a corner running wide open. The amount of all out control loss in GT5 seems a little over the top to me. Can someone explain this? Also, when I begine to get wheel spin in GT5 is immediately let off the trottle completely and coast, when I do I gain traction again but the car gets jerked off course and I end up swerving around a little bit trying to get back into the line.
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Alot of guys online use traction control and with some cars it gives them a big advantage over someone not using traction control. So no matter how good you get without TC those who use it will beat you out of some corners because not using TC does not always make you faster.

Now if you're spinning out exiting corners take this advice:

- Only floor the gas pedal when the car is completley straight
- Turning the steering wheel takes traction away from your tires. The less you turn the wheel exiting the corner the more traction your rear tires get and the faster you can add more throttle. What I mean is after the apex of a corner start to slowly turn the steering wheel back to the 12 o'clock position. This will give your rear tires more grip.
- Have patience. With more practice you will understand your car more and you will be able to get on the throttle sooner and harder. The limit is a fine line and takes alot of practice to find on each car.



Exaccto
Oh, what I find a bit unrealistic with GT5P, is when you miss the apex, just by a bit, you tend to get thrown out pretty far...whereas if you hit the apex, your car will corner like it was on rails! In real life, if you miss the apex a bit, it is still acceptable, and your grip will still be thesame as if you hit the apex.
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Before reading the following Ill let you know I do not use any assists

I noticed that too when doing a time trial at Eiger.

If you hugged the inside of the turns with your wheels 1 inch from the grass the "rail effect" will engage and your car will just rocket around the corner.

However if you miss the apex by as little as 2 feet you would lose as much as 2 car lengths in a single turn.

Obviously that isn't realistic

After playing this game more I think the physics do a good job for the most part.

Some say the Ferrari F40 feels like your driving on ice but after racing it with R1 tires for the past couple of days I've found it's really not that bad but rather an enjoyment to drive. It handles the way you expect a car of it's nature to.

There still are some problems though with the physics, the AWD cars have unreal amounts of grip and allow you to sling them around with little to no consequence while some FR and MR cars become unstable around lazy bends. This should be addressed in the August 1st update.

I can't get a feel for the handling of the F1 car because it has the steering ratio of a Greyhound bus which is so far from realistic.
 
Earth
However if you miss the apex by as little as 2 feet you would lose as much as 2 car lengths in a single turn.
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I hadn't really noticed this problem - I assumed that I was losing time by not hitting the apex because I'd taken the corner badly in the first place. Generally, if you hit the apex where you want you've done something right on the way into the corner and you have a better chance of driving out right too. However if you've missed the apex chances are you've gone in too hot or at the wrong angle and that'll spoil your exit too.

Maybe there is a slight rail effect but I've always put it down to there being good lines and bad lines.
 

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