Can GT5 translate into reality?

[ShobThaBob]

Tell me have you ever had to correct overseer at 30 mph on a dry road? Let me tell you it happens much much faster than in a "sim" like gt5 and doing it in a video game is no preparation at all.

Depends on the car. My GTO had oversteer that was gradual, very correctable, and not at all surprising when it does.

 

[Grayfox]

Clarkson showed that the Toyota GT86 with it's prius eco tires it has can be very tail happy even at low speeds.

 

[sems4arsenal]

BTW - If your cars in motion you shouldn't be adjusting the side mirrors, that's the important factor here.

I have

:yep typical beginner mistake.Won't be trying anything like that again

 

[savage388]

Depends on the car. My GTO had oversteer that was gradual, very correctable, and not at all surprising when it does.

In my trans am it snaps really quick when it does break loose at speed. Even when when I stab the gas in a straight line it goes sideways pretty quick.

 

[Scaff]

Depends on the car. My GTO had oversteer that was gradual, very correctable, and not at all surprising when it does.

Quite agree, while 2.09 improved the progress of grip a little with what seems to be some good changes to the suspension side of things, the tyre model still has far to little progression and tyre scrub doesn't slow you down enough at all.

That said it is going to vary from car to car and also dependable on the road conditions as well, lift off oversteer in a Mk1 Clio V6 is quick and brutal, power-over on the other hand required pushing past a lot of initial understeer.

Clarkson showed that the Toyota GT86 with it's prius eco tires it has can be very tail happy even at low speeds.

Is this the piece you are referring to?



In which the corner entry right before the sideways action is this...




...and given that its the TGTT the corners used are not exactly slow. Don't get me wrong the GT86 does allow you to get sideways at much lower speeds that most RWD cars on the market, but it still requires a 'brisk' pace to get understeer transitioning to oversteer on a track. Clarkson's sideways fun I would suggest required a small step up from brisk.

 

[homeforsummer]

Was just about to say the same thing. Modern cars on relatively fat modern tyres still require quite a bit of provocation to go sideways. 215 section is nothing compared to a lot of modern cars, but it's a lot more than, say, an original MX-5 on 185-sections. Modern suspension setups are fairly "safe" too, which ironically means you need to be travelling a lot quicker before the grip finally goes - not actually that safe!

Incidentally, the track in that clip is Croft. Perhaps not quite as high as TGTT, but it's still a relatively quick circuit in places.

 

[Scaff]

Was just about to say the same thing. Modern cars on relatively fat modern tyres still require quite a bit of provocation to go sideways. 215 section is nothing compared to a lot of modern cars, but it's a lot more than, say, an original MX-5 on 185-sections. Modern suspension setups are fairly "safe" too, which ironically means you need to be travelling a lot quicker before the grip finally goes - not actually that safe!

And even further from a Morris Minor on cross-plys (now they will oversteer at 30mph).

Incidentally, the track in that clip is Croft. Perhaps not quite as high as TGTT, but it's still a relatively quick circuit in places.

My bad, but as you say a quick track with mainly fast corners...

...as such the point still holds.

 

[Goshin2568]

So all of these situations had outside factors involved as well, in other words they were not simply oversteer at 30mph on a dry road.

When exactly would a car oversteer randomly at 30 mph with no outside factors. I'm struggling to think of a situation where that would occur.

Given that you are describing my link as a 'study' I strongly suspect your didn't bother following the links and actually reading the accounts of an instructor at the Nurburgring about the problems and accidents that have occurred because people think that sims make them better drivers and teach them the exact lay out of tracks.

No, I'll admit, I did not follow up on your links. I was referring to you asking for a citation. That's not really even possible. No matter what it's just going to be someone's opinion. Why shouldn't mine count?

And as for what the Nurburgring instructor said, that's not really the sims fault. That's just people being stupid. If someone thinks they can learn a track on a sim and then go out and drive it at 10 tenths, that's completely their idiocracy. That has nothing to do with whether a sim can help someone increase their driving ability.

I have not said once in this thread that nothing is transferable, what I disagreed with is that all of the skills required for racing can be directly applied to the street. The empasis is mine and its the important part.

Ok, I'll admit I went overboard with saying "all". In retrospect I shouldn't have said that, nor do I even believe it. I would revise my statement to say "A good deal of racing techniques or ways of thinking can be applied to good street driving."

No I'm not. What I will say however is that direct experience is the best get better at something, however GT5 is certainly not going to allow you to take 80% of what you do in it and transfer it directly to the road or track.

Driving skill isn't a singular skill. Being really good at driving one car on one track and nothing else isn't driving skill. A big part of driving skill is learning how to adapt well, taking what you have learn from one type of car or whatever, and applying it to another area of racing.

Again its not a valid comparison, your talking about transferring skills from a sim to the real world, not from one racing discipline to another.

It is most certainly a valid comparison. I'll explain why.

The way to know if a physics engine is good in a sim is to look at action-reaction. If I do this with the wheel, does the sim car react the same as the same action performed in a real car. With all current sims on the market, the answer is usually no. Which is why you say sim racing doesn't help much. But my point is, that's the same thing that happens when transitioning from real car to real car, you perform the same action with the wheel, pedals, etc. but the car gives a different reaction. Do we then say that drivers can not take skills learned in one car and transfer them over to another car? No, they definitely can transfer their skills. So why can a driver not take the skills learned from a sim and transfer them to real life?

It is however interesting to note that while a F1 driver would be quicker in a FWD race car than Joe Average around a track, when you then put them against drivers who focus on that discipline they suddenly don't fair quite as well. Take a look at how Nigel Mansell did in the BTCC for an example of just that (during which he totally lost a car, overcorrected and was knocked out in the following crash - 5th place was the best the former F1 world champion was able to manage). What is interesting is that when he raced in CARTs he won the championship, looks like he was much better able to transfer his skill set between open wheel formula cars than to a FWD saloon car.

How about ex-F1 Champion Kimi Räikkönen, who just made an excellent return to F1 following his time in the WRC. In which he finished 10th both years.

These example both take drivers who were world champion F1 drivers and while quick in these very different Motorsport disciplines, could not maintain the same level of pace as those who specialise in them.

You are proving my point here. I never said that a good driver in a sim is better in real life than a good driver in real life. But a driver with sim experience but no real track experience vs a driver with neither? Only an idiot would choose the one with neither.

 

[Scaff]

When exactly would a car oversteer randomly at 30 mph with no outside factors. I'm struggling to think of a situation where that would occur.

Which was my exact point, you said that cars would oversteer at 30mph in the dry, and as a stand alone statement I questioned it. It now seems that I was entirely correct to do so.

No, I'll admit, I did not follow up on your links. I was referring to you asking for a citation. That's not really even possible. No matter what it's just going to be someone's opinion. Why shouldn't mine count?

And as for what the Nurburgring instructor said, that's not really the sims fault. That's just people being stupid. If someone thinks they can learn a track on a sim and then go out and drive it at 10 tenths, that's completely their idiocracy. That has nothing to do with whether a sim can help someone increase their driving ability.

Still not read it then. OK here's a rather important quote from it....

It doesn't matter how realistic this game gets (and it's pretty damn good, let me tell you) when ever you can press 'quit' or 'restart' then it's ONLY a game. Sounds bleedin' obvious, right?

Well, apparently I should re-iterate this as more and more people take to the track with no concept of what really happens when you oversteer an automobile at 60mph/100kph. Let me give you a clue - you don't tap the otherway on the joypad.

Its not just talking about knowing the track it also talking about thinking you can understand what to do from a sim (and please don't think that a wheel & pedals makes all the difference - it is closer but its still not close enough).

After all being able to use this....

...in Rock Band doesn't mean you can play the guitar, yet my daughters boyfriend can destroy me in RB3 with one, yet the second I offer him one of my (real) guitars to play he's stuffed. Yet he's still hitting the right frets, playing the simulated strings, etc, etc, etc? Playing RB3 (or GH) is not playing a guitar, its playing a simulated representation of a guitar. Racing or driving in a sim is not a form of motorsport, its a game and assigning to much real world influence to a game (no matter how well it simulates something or how good the interface is) still doesn't change the fact its not the real thing and as such you can only transfer so much, and its often far less than you think and what you transfer is not only good habits but also bad ones.

Even Rocksmith (which uses an actual guitar as a controller - so the equivalent of taking a cars steering rack and pedalbox and getting it to work with a sim) still feels like you are playing a game with a guitar rather than actually playing a guitar, and that's arguably a lot closer than using a cars steering rack and pedalbox with a sim.

Ok, I'll admit I went overboard with saying "all". In retrospect I shouldn't have said that, nor do I even believe it. I would revise my statement to say "A good deal of racing techniques or ways of thinking can be applied to good street driving."

I would go with some at best, but now we are simply disagreeing about the degree.

Now a question, what you you believe you can pick up from a sim that would be dangerous on a real track?

Driving skill isn't a singular skill. Being really good at driving one car on one track and nothing else isn't driving skill. A big part of driving skill is learning how to adapt well, taking what you have learn from one type of car or whatever, and applying it to another area of racing.

Good job I've never come close to saying anything like that isn't it.

It is most certainly a valid comparison. I'll explain why.

The way to know if a physics engine is good in a sim is to look at action-reaction. If I do this with the wheel, does the sim car react the same as the same action performed in a real car. With all current sims on the market, the answer is usually no. Which is why you say sim racing doesn't help much. But my point is, that's the same thing that happens when transitioning from real car to real car, you perform the same action with the wheel, pedals, etc. but the car gives a different reaction. Do we then say that drivers can not take skills learned in one car and transfer them over to another car? No, they definitely can transfer their skills. So why can a driver not take the skills learned from a sim and transfer them to real life?

Once again you are assuming that I have said nothing can be taken from a sim and transferred to the real world, which I have not. What I said is that is not close to 80% (your figure) and its that people do not know the crossover than can be dangerous.

A driver can of course take everything they have learned from a sim and transfer it to real life, from the approach they take to building up lap speed, to braking points, brake pressure, steering lock, etc. Unfortunately they are fairly likely to stuff a car into a wall as a result.

You are proving my point here. I never said that a good driver in a sim is better in real life than a good driver in real life. But a driver with sim experience but no real track experience vs a driver with neither? Only an idiot would choose the one with neither.

I've taught both and its not even close to being that simple. I have come across plenty of drivers who have no sim or track experience, but have been willing to learn and apply what they learn. As a result they developed quickly and safely. I've come across those who have immersed themselves in sims and tried to transfer it to the track, they often don't listen, don't think it applies to them and assume they will be quick because they are quick in a sim; they rarely are. If someone thinks they can go straight from a sim to a track without any form of tuition and be quick, well that's the idiot.

In theory taking two equal road drivers to the track the one who has sim time may (and its a bit may) be quicker to start with, however they also are the more likely to stuff the car. They both will require tuition to get the most out of the car and track and that's when things change.

To be blunt if your looking to teach someone a skill then a willingness to learn and understand that they need to learn is far more important than any amount of simulated practice they may have had. Too much of which can actually be far more detrimental than it is beneficial.

Why do you tghink they don't just use GTA to pick the quickest sim driver and then make them the winner? Why the grueling fitness testing and the various aptitude tests, etc? Because to teach someone to be really quick needs a lot more than a sim (and to be honest GT5's roll in the GTA is not that important), you need the right person, one who is ready, willing and able to learn. That a sim will not give you.

 

[Goshin2568]

Which was my exact point, you said that cars would oversteer at 30mph in the dry, and as a stand alone statement I questioned it. It now seems that I was entirely correct to do so.

Ok. I just didn't realize what you were arguing then.

Still not read it then. OK here's a rather important quote from it....

Again. That's a driver being stupid. Has absolutely nothing do with with learning driving skill from a sim.

Its not just talking about knowing the track it also talking about thinking you can understand what to do from a sim (and please don't think that a wheel & pedals makes all the difference - it is closer but its still not close enough).

After all being able to use this....

...in Rock Band doesn't mean you can play the guitar, yet my daughters boyfriend can destroy me in RB3 with one, yet the second I offer him one of my (real) guitars to play he's stuffed. Yet he's still hitting the right frets, playing the simulated strings, etc, etc, etc? Playing RB3 (or GH) is not playing a guitar, its playing a simulated representation of a guitar. Racing or driving in a sim is not a form of motorsport, its a game and assigning to much real world influence to a game (no matter how well it simulates something or how good the interface is) still doesn't change the fact its not the real thing and as such you can only transfer so much, and its often far less than you think and what you transfer is not only good habits but also bad ones.

Even Rocksmith (which uses an actual guitar as a controller - so the equivalent of taking a cars steering rack and pedalbox and getting it to work with a sim) still feels like you are playing a game with a guitar rather than actually playing a guitar, and that's arguably a lot closer than using a cars steering rack and pedalbox with a sim.

I don't know how to argue that. It's just not the same. That's all there is to it. Driving skill is about instinct, muscle memory, and adaptability. Guitar playing shares some of those, but it's too different for a valid comparison.

Now a question, what you you believe you can pick up from a sim that would be dangerous on a real track?

There's a million things. False confidence and false knowledge being the primary. But again, those fall under operator error. That't not the sims fault, it's purely the drivers. That's like saying that race car drivers are bad street drivers because all they do is race around on the street. Yes, that's possible, but only because those certain drivers are stupid. You can't make that generalization to all racing drivers. Similarly, just because one sim racer thought he was big time and crashed in real life because of false confidence doesn't mean that sim racers in general can't apply their experience to the real thing.

Good job I've never come close to saying anything like that isn't it.

Then why every time I mention driving skill do you start talking about braking points and track knowledge? I could teach a monkey to step on a brake pedal at the 50 marker. That's not driving skill. I maintain this statement: You cannot learn how to drive a car or a track from a sim. What I do believe you can learn, however, is driving skill. The ability to drive fast instinctively, and then be able to adapt that instinct to other cars, tracks, and forms of racing.

So next time I talk about driving skill, don't banter on about "building up lap speed, to braking points, brake pressure, steering lock, etc." I agree, those cannot be learned from a sim. That's not what I'm talking about.

Once again you are assuming that I have said nothing can be taken from a sim and transferred to the real world, which I have not. What I said is that is not close to 80% (your figure) and its that people do not know the crossover than can be dangerous.

A driver can of course take everything they have learned from a sim and transfer it to real life, from the approach they take to building up lap speed, to braking points, brake pressure, steering lock, etc. Unfortunately they are fairly likely to stuff a car into a wall as a result.

Again, operator error.

I've taught both and its not even close to being that simple. I have come across plenty of drivers who have no sim or track experience, but have been willing to learn and apply what they learn. As a result they developed quickly and safely. I've come across those who have immersed themselves in sims and tried to transfer it to the track, they often don't listen, don't think it applies to them and assume they will be quick because they are quick in a sim; they rarely are. If someone thinks they can go straight from a sim to a track without any form of tuition and be quick, well that's the idiot.

In theory taking two equal road drivers to the track the one who has sim time may (and its a bit may) be quicker to start with, however they also are the more likely to stuff the car. They both will require tuition to get the most out of the car and track and that's when things change.

To be blunt if your looking to teach someone a skill then a willingness to learn and understand that they need to learn is far more important than any amount of simulated practice they may have had. Too much of which can actually be far more detrimental than it is beneficial.

Why do you tghink they don't just use GTA to pick the quickest sim driver and then make them the winner? Why the grueling fitness testing and the various aptitude tests, etc? Because to teach someone to be really quick needs a lot more than a sim (and to be honest GT5's roll in the GTA is not that important), you need the right person, one who is ready, willing and able to learn. That a sim will not give you.

Ok, and I'll agree with you there, but I was referring more to comparing them before you teach them. Obviously if one has more natural talent and learns better, he will eventually be the faster driver, but that's not Average Joe anymore, that's a trained driver. My point was that in almost all cases, a sim driver without real track experience will beat out the everyday driver.

 

[Joey D]

GT isn't even a proper sim, no racing video game out there is. Sure it's a realistic video game, but it's still a game. Things like road conditions, g-forces and fear aren't simulated at all. A real car, even a cheap, everyday car feels way different then a virtual representation.

As an example ARMA is a pretty good combat simulator, and I'm pretty good at it, but does that mean I could go out and be some super solider? Not a chance in hell. Just like I feel like I am a fair driver in real life but I can't drive a car to save my soul in GT, Forza, etc. The skills just don't translate.

If you really want to become a good driver, spend your money on advanced driving classes. Not some fake plastic steering wheel and a video game.

 

[Scaff]

Again. That's a driver being stupid. Has absolutely nothing do with with learning driving skill from a sim.

If he/she did it as a direct result of believing it was a transferable skill from a sim then it has quite a lot to do with it.

I don't know how to argue that. It's just not the same. That's all there is to it. Driving skill is about instinct, muscle memory, and adaptability. Guitar playing shares some of those, but it's too different for a valid comparison.

Playing the guitar is also about instinct, muscle memory, and adaptability.

Oh I also take it you play to be able to dismiss it as a valid comparison, please feel free to share you kit in the Guitar thread in the music sub-forum.

There's a million things. False confidence and false knowledge being the primary. But again, those fall under operator error. That't not the sims fault, it's purely the drivers. That's like saying that race car drivers are bad street drivers because all they do is race around on the street. Yes, that's possible, but only because those certain drivers are stupid. You can't make that generalization to all racing drivers. Similarly, just because one sim racer thought he was big time and crashed in real life because of false confidence doesn't mean that sim racers in general can't apply their experience to the real thing.

Its a damn sight more than one and if the route cause of that operator error is a false belief of ability from a sim then yes it is valid.

Then why every time I mention driving skill do you start talking about braking points and track knowledge? I could teach a monkey to step on a brake pedal at the 50 marker. That's not driving skill. I maintain this statement: You cannot learn how to drive a car or a track from a sim. What I do believe you can learn, however, is driving skill. The ability to drive fast instinctively, and then be able to adapt that instinct to other cars, tracks, and forms of racing.

Nor am I talking about the basic mechanics of the actions either, because that's little more than that is what you will get from most sims.

The simple issue is that sims are not complete enough to be able to provide you with the adaptability you credit them with. Lets take lift-off oversteer as an example, the ability to adapt to differing levels of it and correct for it is vital to track driving particularly if you are running a MR, RR or FWD car with a shortish wheelbase. Now lets take GT5 and lift-off oversteer, h wait we can't because its practically non-existent in GT5. So all of sudden you have a situation that most drivers will never have come across on the road occurring and all a persons 'sim' experience is for naught as you head backwards into the armco.

So next time I talk about driving skill, don't banter on about "building up lap speed, to braking points, brake pressure, steering lock, etc." I agree, those cannot be learned from a sim. That's not what I'm talking about.

Sorry I'm not to "banter on"?

I've been nothing but civil to you and this is now the second time I've caught attitude, address the discussion not the person, should you fail to do so for a third time you will find an infraction in your in box.

Again, operator error.

And once again caused by?

You can't simply take what you think is useful from sims and then disregard what you think is bad, as the only way someone with sim exerience is going to find out which is which is when they find out the hard way on a track.

Ok, and I'll agree with you there, but I was referring more to comparing them before you teach them. Obviously if one has more natural talent and learns better, he will eventually be the faster driver, but that's not Average Joe anymore, that's a trained driver. My point was that in almost all cases, a sim driver without real track experience will beat out the everyday driver.

If one has more natural talent he/she can still be quicker than someone who has sim experience, its not remotely as black and white as you are making it out to be.

 

[Goshin2568]

Sorry I'm not to "banter on"?

I've been nothing but civil to you and this is now the second time I've caught attitude, address the discussion not the person, should you fail to do so for a third time you will find an infraction in your in box.

I apologize, but I didn't mean it as "attitude", and I really don't see how or why you could've taken it as such. I was addressing the discussion, it's hard to communicate when I say something and your response has almost nothing to do with what I've even been talking about.

And once again caused by?

Stupidity.

You can't simply take what you think is useful from sims and then disregard what you think is bad, as the only way someone with sim exerience is going to find out which is which is when they find out the hard way on a track.

How is that any different than how everyone without sim experience finds out what can and cannot be done? The stupidity of which I refer is lack of discretion, not lack of knowledge of physics.

If one has more natural talent he/she can still be quicker than someone who has sim experience, its not remotely as black and white as you are making it out to be.

Agreed. There are many many factors that determine who is faster, but I don't think you can throw out sim experience as one altogether, nor can you consider it a factor, but exclusively a negative one. It can be both.

 

[Scaff]

How is that any different than how everyone without sim experience finds out what can and cannot be done? The stupidity of which I refer is lack of discretion, not lack of knowledge of physics.

The difference is that some one without sim knowledge knows that they have never been on a track before and still have a lot to learn. I've seen a lot of sim racers who believe that sim time is the same as real track time and as a result push far to fast and far to quickly, as a result they don't build up to a level of competency and work from that, rather they simply head straight past it (and into the kitty litter).

Don't get me wrong not all of them do, but far to many for me to agree that 80% of what you do in a sim can be directly transferred to reality, not even close.

Agreed. There are many many factors that determine who is faster, but I don't think you can throw out sim experience as one altogether,

I haven't, so I'm not quite sure why you keep implying I have.

nor can you consider it a factor, but exclusively a negative one.

I haven't, you however seemed to be claiming that the negative was just driver error.

It can be both.

I know. I was the one that pointed that out.

 

[Grayfox]

Is this the piece you are referring to?

Yeah, didn't want to post the video as some may want to watch the DVD/Bluray.

 

[niky]

GT isn't even a proper sim, no racing video game out there is. Sure it's a realistic video game, but it's still a game. Things like road conditions, g-forces and fear aren't simulated at all. A real car, even a cheap, everyday car feels way different then a virtual representation.

As an example ARMA is a pretty good combat simulator, and I'm pretty good at it, but does that mean I could go out and be some super solider? Not a chance in hell. Just like I feel like I am a fair driver in real life but I can't drive a car to save my soul in GT, Forza, etc. The skills just don't translate.

If you really want to become a good driver, spend your money on advanced driving classes. Not some fake plastic steering wheel and a video game.

We actually use sketchier and less realistic "sims" in the education industry. If it were developed as a teaching sim, GT5 would have some merit. Some merit in the fact that you can shorten the learning time in the real world (running a program is cheaper than running a real car), but you cannot avoid having to learn in the real world completely.

Combat and piloting/driving simulators are very important, in that you can teach basic* strategies and techniques in the absence of external distractions and noise, but eventually, people will still have to learn to do it in the unpredictable, noisy and messy real world.

I'd argue that a game like GT5 can be a good teaching aid, but only as a supplement to real track instruction, and ever mindful of the limitations of the game.

*Basics: That thar' is the brake pedal... This thingamabob is the swizzle stick, and if yuz press that thing while turning, you do donuts.

If the road is straight, press on da gas. If the road ain't, press on da brakes. Them's the basics.

 

[Goshin2568]

The difference is that some one without sim knowledge knows that they have never been on a track before and still have a lot to learn. I've seen a lot of sim racers who believe that sim time is the same as real track time and as a result push far to fast and far to quickly, as a result they don't build up to a level of competency and work from that, rather they simply head straight past it (and into the kitty litter).

Exactly. But I don't know how you can say that it's the sims fault. That is clearly, obviously, blatantly, 110% the driver's fault.

I haven't, so I'm not quite sure why you keep implying I have.



I haven't, you however seemed to be claiming that the negative was just driver error.

Really? Does this ring a bell?

Will these things that I'm good at in GT5 help when I start driving?

In answer to the OP - Very, very, very , very little.

That sounds to me like you're throwing any chance of positive impact out the window.

I'd argue that a game like GT5 can be a good teaching aid, but only as a supplement to real track instruction, and ever mindful of the limitations of the game.

Hit the nail right on the head there. 👍

 

[Scaff]

Exactly. But I don't know how you can say that it's the sims fault. That is clearly, obviously, blatantly, 110% the driver's fault.

Simply saying 110% the drivers fault is meaningless without looking at the root of the fault, what caused it; by that logic a sim also provides no benafit because everything they do right is 110% the drivers success. It makes no sense on its own.

To repeat success and avoid fault you have to look at the root of that success and failure.

Really? Does this ring a bell?

That sounds to me like you're throwing any chance of positive impact out the window.

That statement is 100% neutral, it simply quantifies how much one can benefit from a sim in terms of road driving, its doesn't even come close to breaking it down into good or bad, nor does it even qualify what they could be.

As such as assignment of positive or negative is entirely yours and not mine.

Hit the nail right on the head there. 👍

I quite agree, particulrly as Niky's footnote to a sim being able to just give you the basics, whcih he described as:

*Basics: That thar' is the brake pedal... This thingamabob is the swizzle stick, and if yuz press that thing while turning, you do donuts.

If the road is straight, press on da gas. If the road ain't, press on da brakes. Them's the basics.

Which I'm sure you will agree is a lot less than 80% transference from a sim to the real world.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Thinking you can learn to drive and transfers skills and experience from a sim to the real world is not only wrong but potentially very dangerous.

Sources - http://bridgetogantry.com/2/index.php/home/amusingamazing/320-playstation-heroes and http://bridgetogantry.com/2/index.p...art-2&catid=55:touristenfahrten&Itemid=300088

First article is more to do with describing someone with lack of common sense and also stupidity. It could be someone who has driven fast in normal roads or in-game, both are affected due to having confidence that they are somehow amazingly awesome in their own eyes when driving a car.

Second article proves opposite of first article too.

Even if you have many real world laps, you still don't know the track fully with a car if first time driving a new car around it. I don't get why such high standards are meant to be for a sim driver who may be even slow in-game but somehow must be 100% on the limit in real life to prove there is transition from sim to game.

Lets just take one of those track skills and try and apply it to the road and see just how useful it is. Braking.

The purpose of braking on the track is to slow your car down as quickly as possible to the required entry speed of a given corner (a speed that is often still in excess of road legal speeds), in doing so you use every last drop of grip available from the tyres. Its a violent action and one that bears almost no relationship to the level of application (force and speed) that you would need to apply on the road, which would only apply to emergency situations, which unless you are an idiot you should not be in often at all.

Applying the brakes on the road is about efficiency and smoothness well below the limit of the tyres, at much lower speeds and often involves coming to a complete halt. They may be the same action, but very little of the actuial detail of application remains the same.

As such, no not "All the skills racing drivers learn apply directly to being a good street driver", in fact in the case of this one it would not make you a good driver but an irresponsible one.

You have be have very good precision on brakes being a racing driver, braking points for all corners are not 100% braking force. Anyway the way you are describing drivers is they are like robots, virtually have no adaptability at all from knowledge of their experiences virtual or real.

I know what you meant and I still disagree with you, 80% of what you learn from GT5 can not be directly applied to real world driving at all.

I would say vast majority of what you learn from GT5 can be directly applied to track driving. It is visually learning theory of racing / driving fast, includes some physical learning in a way. That is why GT Academy is so successful. They have people who understand how to go fast and are level headed. Quite a lot of them who progress to race camp or even stage before, would be able to become decent racing drivers very quickly if they had the money to I believe. Amazing if you consider the biggest selection process is through the game, it is probably something like 99.99% of people who enter are filtered out by how good they are at the game.

It is high pressure situation by looks of videos of the race camp and you virtually have to do things for the first time you have never done before in real life and show you are fast and competent / progressing at it. First race for quite a lot of them in a car for the top 6 at end of it and they show good race craft and car control.

Is this the piece you are referring to?



In which the corner entry right before the sideways action is this...




...and given that its the TGTT the corners used are not exactly slow. Don't get me wrong the GT86 does allow you to get sideways at much lower speeds that most RWD cars on the market, but it still requires a 'brisk' pace to get understeer transitioning to oversteer on a track. Clarkson's sideways fun I would suggest required a small step up from brisk.

Did you even listen to what Jeremy said at the end?

 

[Scaff]

First article is more to do with describing someone with lack of common sense and also stupidity. It could be someone who has driven fast in normal roads or in-game, both are affected due to having confidence that they are somehow amazingly awesome in their own eyes when driving a car.

Yet of all the people they are seeing come through the 'ring race schools its the ones with 'sim' knowledge that they feel they have to warn.

That overconfidence comes from somewhere and while I certainly agree that some of it can come from just being young (and that's personal experience talking), you can not dismiss that 'sim' practice can without a doubt also be a cause.

Now combine the overconfidence of a young man and a sim racer and you have a bit potential for a major problem.

Second article proves opposite of first article too.

No it doesn't.

Even if you have many real world laps, you still don't know the track fully with a car if first time driving a new car around it. I don't get why such high standards are meant to be for a sim driver who may be even slow in-game but somehow must be 100% on the limit in real life to prove there is transition from sim to game.

What?

I've not said anything that comes even close to that at all.

You have be have very good precision on brakes being a racing driver, braking points for all corners are not 100% braking force. Anyway the way you are describing drivers is they are like robots, virtually have no adaptability at all from knowledge of their experiences virtual or real.

I know I've driven on track, and of course you are not on the brakes 100% all the time, however unless its an emergency you don't ever get close to 100% braking pressure on the road, and even then many drivers still don't get to 100% braking pressure.

In regard to 'robots', as a large part of successful racing is lap consistency, then yes that certainly is a part of it, but I have not said that they can't be adaptable at all (quite the opposite).

I would say vast majority of what you learn from GT5 can be directly applied to track driving.

I disagree and you can change GT5 to sim for that (as you seem to be out to defend GT5 at all costs once again)

It is high pressure situation by looks of videos of the race camp and you virtually have to do things for the first time you have never done before in real life and show you are fast and competent / progressing at it. First race for quite a lot of them in a car for the top 6 at end of it and they show good race craft and car control.

They show reasonable race craft and car control at that stage, and they are not simply taken from the game and thrown into a race. A significant degree of learning and practice occurs first, something you seem happy to gloss over.

Did you even listen to what Jeremy said at the end?

Yes. Are you aware of exactly how much hyperbole he speaks? If you listen to his review of the R34 Skyline its apparently impossible to loose control in one, does that make that true as well?

The overall reviews of the GT86 are that is has a playful rear end, but not at the kind of speeds that some are suggesting. Keep in mind that for a modern RWD car the ability to kick the rear out (with under 200bhp) at around 60mph is practically unheard of without seriously upsetting the cars balance. As such what the GT86 has done is great, but its not going to start oversteering at every 30mph bend on the road as has been suggested (and you seem to be suggesting as well).

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Yet of all the people they are seeing come through the 'ring race schools its the ones with 'sim' knowledge that they feel they have to warn.

That overconfidence comes from somewhere and while I certainly agree that some of it can come from just being young (and that's personal experience talking), you can not dismiss that 'sim' practice can without a doubt also be a cause.

Now combine the overconfidence of a young man and a sim racer and you have a bit potential for a major problem.

They are not the only people they warn though is it? The same warnings are for all drivers new to Nurburgring.

Overconfidence old or young, sim racer or not is going to be a big poential problem for someone new to the track in real world.

No it doesn't.

It does from what I read of it. First article critizing a driver for overconfidence and thinking he has learnt track already. Second is criticizing a driver for going at his safe limit to learn the track and car that is both very new to him.

What?

I've not said anything that comes even close to that at all.

I was referring to second article.

I know I've driven on track, and of course you are not on the brakes 100% all the time, however unless its an emergency you don't ever get close to 100% braking pressure on the road, and even then many drivers still don't get to 100% braking pressure.

In regard to 'robots', as a large part of successful racing is lap consistency, then yes that certainly is a part of it, but I have not said that they can't be adaptable at all (quite the opposite).

Point is though a racing driver should have a good idea of braking distances and brake pressure, how high or low. It will translate to normal real world driving. Most of top racing drivers are already racers before having a normal driving licence. It doesn't make them do something resembling emergency stops at normal stops when they first start taking any lessons, if they even do take lessons that is.

Quite the opposite idea is not coming through in your posts in my opinion.

I disagree and you can change GT5 to sim for that (as you seem to be out to defend GT5 at all costs once again)

You can learn so much from GT5 I feel that could be applied to real world as it is after all what the textbooks will try and explain in general. You get to try out theory in a competitive environment, people who are best at it are now racing drivers through GT Academy program.

I am not out to defend GT5 at all costs but if that is the case, then you must be out to criticize GT5 at all costs.

They show reasonable race craft and car control at that stage, and they are not simply taken from the game and thrown into a race. A significant degree of learning and practice occurs first, something you seem happy to gloss over.

They are very raw in this sense as the racing experience like final race up to the stage is they do a Karting race with their competitors and a passing challenge. That maybe a significant degree of learning and practice in your view but it certainly isn't in my opinion. Some might have other experience before GT Academy but for majority I don't think that is the case. It is also not like they are taught everything to do, they have to do it on their own accord mostly and are constantly being judged. It is quite a lot of different things they have to do, very new to most of them.

You seem to also happy gloss over massive selection of the people who take part in it are filtered out by the game too.

Yes. Are you aware of exactly how much hyperbole he speaks? If you listen to his review of the R34 Skyline its apparently impossible to loose control in one, does that make that true as well?

The overall reviews of the GT86 are that is has a playful rear end, but not at the kind of speeds that some are suggesting. Keep in mind that for a modern RWD car the ability to kick the rear out (with under 200bhp) at around 60mph is practically unheard of without seriously upsetting the cars balance. As such what the GT86 has done is great, but its not going to start oversteering at every 30mph bend on the road as has been suggested (and you seem to be suggesting as well).

Yes I am aware of his hyperbole. However you seem to be suggesting he is lying about saying the speedometer at 20MPH, maybe with higher quality video it will be possible to see if it is the truth or not. I doubt he is that far out with the reading of the speedometer.

 

[Mechs]

I'd argue that a game like GT5 can be a good teaching aid, but only as a supplement to real track instruction, and ever mindful of the limitations of the game.[/size]

I believe that about sums up the answer to the question at hand. But only applying to road course driving and not street driving. I'm a firm believer in that sims are very good training tool for racecraft. I went from sims like iRacing, and the not so simish GT5 and Forza, and started doing trackdays and autocrosses and I have to say that it significantly reduced the learning curve of driving at high speeds on a real track. It helped with learning the racing lines on a new course, cornering, braking, dealing with traffic, accelerating, pretty much all the basics.

So yes, I say GT5 can translate to reality. It just made the transition to real life that much easier. But nothing replaces real world seat time. I'm even going to a Skip Barber racing school next year to learn more and hopefully wring out those extra tenths of a second I'm missing both in real life and in the virtual.

 

[hennessey86]

Oh dear god lease don't take anything you have learned in gt5 on to public roads, being a quick driver on the public roads will end in tears I assure you. Track wise there is some limited things you Can learn but nothing of note.

 

[Greycap]

Oh dear god lease don't take anything you have learned in gt5 on to public roads, being a quick driver on the public roads will end in tears I assure you.

When I got an RWD car sideways for the first time I was very happy to be able to do what I had learned in GT, no panic, just countersteer without altering the amount of throttle application and that was it. Learning to drive is usually done in FWD cars over here and by the time there's a real need for skills to save a slide there will be no skills because none were taught so things can go very wrong very quickly.

And before someone plays the holier-than-thou "you shouldn't be sliding on public roads to begin with" card - try driving an old school RWD on snow and ice without ever breaking loose. Not going to happen and you don't even need to be doing 30 mph.

 

[Dennisch]

try driving an old school RWD on snow and ice

I can't wait for the winter to arrive!

 

[Scaff]

They are not the only people they warn though is it? The same warnings are for all drivers new to Nurburgring.

Overconfidence old or young, sim racer or not is going to be a big poential problem for someone new to the track in real world.

Drivers are preped at every circuit abd before every event, so yes its does cover everyone regardless of experience (right the way to F1, etc). However certain groups will always be seen as a higher risk and young male drivers have always been one of he highest, sim racers are now heading that way as well.

It does from what I read of it. First article critizing a driver for overconfidence and thinking he has learnt track already. Second is criticizing a driver for going at his safe limit to learn the track and car that is both very new to him.

The second article does nothing of the sort at all, it clearly points out the danger of believing you know a track from a sim regardless of your skill level as a driver and the importance of 'sighting' laps and building up speed rather than going for an all out attack.

The driver in question was not within his safe limits at all, as is quite clearly stated in that article...

But his track knowledge is dangerously poor. Check out the early entry at 7m20s... he catches the notorious crest and camber change just wrong and AT SPEED. Put 9/10 average tourist session drivers in that slide and the red lights would be on before you could say "Attention, attenion! Zee track ist now closed. Please return to your parking places!"

My point is its not the professional driver in him that's making him enter the corners too fast; it's the illusion that he has 'learnt' the track already!

That's not someone driving a car within the safe limits of his ability with the car and track at all.

Point is though a racing driver should have a good idea of braking distances and brake pressure, how high or low. It will translate to normal real world driving. Most of top racing drivers are already racers before having a normal driving licence. It doesn't make them do something resembling emergency stops at normal stops when they first start taking any lessons, if they even do take lessons that is.

Quite the opposite idea is not coming through in your posts in my opinion.

You may want to actually read the entire chain of comments before posting as the point I rebutted was that that all of the skills required for racing can be directly applied to the street, not that none of them can be transfered from the track to the road.

You can learn so much from GT5 I feel that could be applied to real world as it is after all what the textbooks will try and explain in general. You get to try out theory in a competitive environment, people who are best at it are now racing drivers through GT Academy program.

That you 'feel' is the operative word here, you actually have no real frame of reference for this.

I am not out to defend GT5 at all costs but if that is the case, then you must be out to criticize GT5 at all costs.

I've gone out of my way in this thread to make sure its understood that I am referring to all sims, and have said as much a number of times.

If I were out to criticize GT5 at all costs I would not have posted repeatedly (both here and at FP) how impressed I am with the changes made to the suspension model with the 2.09 update.

Odd that isn't it.

They are very raw in this sense as the racing experience like final race up to the stage is they do a Karting race with their competitors and a passing challenge. That maybe a significant degree of learning and practice in your view but it certainly isn't in my opinion. Some might have other experience before GT Academy but for majority I don't think that is the case. It is also not like they are taught everything to do, they have to do it on their own accord mostly and are constantly being judged. It is quite a lot of different things they have to do, very new to most of them.

No they did not just get a karting racxe and a passing challenge.

The information is here at GTP for all to read, multiple sighting laps with instructors and then instructor guided laps were completed before they were allowed to run time trail laps and autocross events, only then did they move onto the Kart event.

That was day one of five for this year.

So no they didn't just do a Kart race and a passing challenge before going out and competitively racing each other, mainly because neither Sony, PD or Nissan want the press resulting from an unprepared driver being injured in an accident.

Even when all that's completed and they have a winner they don't just throw them into a car and let them race, but rather they have a very grueling and challenging series of month ahead of them as they train intensively to enter their first professional race.

I have the upmost respect for the finalists and winner of the GTA, and am getting wholeheartedly sick of those who underplay the work involved in getting them through the bootcamp and the winner into a race seat.

In claiming that most of what they need to know comes from GT5 you are doing a massive disservice to the drivers themselves and the instructors who guide them through all of this.

You seem to also happy gloss over massive selection of the people who take part in it are filtered out by the game too.

You could simply go back and re-read it from my older posts in a number of different threads. This is after all not the first time I've been through this with you.

However, once again, just because they are quick in a sim that alone doesn't mean they are quick/safe/competitive in a real car on a real track. That's not a slight to any of them, its a simple and basic observation.

Yes I am aware of his hyperbole. However you seem to be suggesting he is lying about saying the speedometer at 20MPH, maybe with higher quality video it will be possible to see if it is the truth or not. I doubt he is that far out with the reading of the speedometer.

No I'm saying he's exaggerating considerably. Will one go sideways on a track at 20mph? Yes the tyres are shot, its below 6 degrees celcus or you massively unsettle it. Will one step out from power-over on the road at 20mph? Well the two I've been in (driven one and passengered another) didn't.

Watch the video at the following link....

http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planetevovideos/281431/video_toyota_gt_86_quick_test.html

....for a track test that is a lots less dramatic (less POWWWWAAAAAAAHHHHH) and a lot more informative. You can't just to a corner and mash the throttle to get it to oversteer (it simply doesn't have the torque), rather you have to work it to get the back out. Notice in the video the little Scandinavian flicks to get the rear to pop out he uses a number of times.

 

[Bottoz]

This is what I'm seeing in this thread... guys who take their car to the track say yes, it can help a little on track. It can't help on the street. I posted video examples on how I used situations in GT5 to transfer into racing, both positive and negative.

 

[Goshin2568]

Oh dear god lease don't take anything you have learned in gt5 on to public roads, being a quick driver on the public roads will end in tears I assure you. Track wise there is some limited things you Can learn but nothing of note.

Honestly, if you're speaking from experience than that is operator error. Its called common sense, and you and Scaff are speaking as if no human being on earth posseses this ability. People are perfectly capable of learning skill and techniques from sims, but that doesn't mean they can jump in a car and go 100% right off the bat. It just reduces the learning curve, as many many people have testified. I don't understand how you can listen to someone say "sim racing helped me a ton when I transferred to real life" and then turn around and say it has no benefits.

 

[Scaff]

Honestly, if you're speaking from experience than that is operator error. Its called common sense, and you and Scaff are speaking as if no human being on earth posseses this ability. People are perfectly capable of learning skill and techniques from sims, but that doesn't mean they can jump in a car and go 100% right off the bat. It just reduces the learning curve, as many many people have testified. I don't understand how you can listen to someone say "sim racing helped me a ton when I transferred to real life" and then turn around and say it has no benefits.

Once again I have not said it has no benefits, so do not imply that again.

What I have said is that the benefits to road driving are very, very small and that benefits to track driving are not as large as many make out.

What I have experienced first hand is that some of the problems that sim experience can bring with it can be very dangerous, I have also provided citations that indicate my experiences are not unique in that regard. You are quite right "that doesn't mean they can jump in a car and go 100% right off the bat.", I have however seen a number do just that.

Simply saying its the drivers fault is meaningless without looking at the root of the fault, what caused it; by that logic a sim also provides no benafit because everything they do right is the drivers success. It makes no sense on its own.

To repeat success and avoid fault you have to look at the root of that success and failure. That's common sense.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Drivers are preped at every circuit abd before every event, so yes its does cover everyone regardless of experience (right the way to F1, etc). However certain groups will always be seen as a higher risk and young male drivers have always been one of he highest, sim racers are now heading that way as well.

I’m sure there are there are times when they get decent sim drivers who drive well in real life too. Most top drivers who made it to top obviously were young male drivers at one point. You get people who are mature or not, personality can be more of the problem.

The second article does nothing of the sort at all, it clearly points out the danger of believing you know a track from a sim regardless of your skill level as a driver and the importance of 'sighting' laps and building up speed rather than going for an all out attack.

The driver in question was not within his safe limits at all, as is quite clearly stated in that article...



That's not someone driving a car within the safe limits of his ability with the car and track at all.

Did you not even read the comments section where actual driver comments? If you don’t try and drive with no dramas all the way, you won’t really learn limit of track and car. The driver in question was driving at a limit he was comfortable with.

You may want to actually read the entire chain of comments before posting as the point I rebutted was that that all of the skills required for racing can be directly applied to the street, not that none of them can be transfered from the track to the road.

I’m just talking about braking.

That you 'feel' is the operative word here, you actually have no real frame of reference for this.

Just like I feel if I read a racing theory book, it should help to take it to real world, it does not mean it is nonsense unless I personally try it.

I've gone out of my way in this thread to make sure its understood that I am referring to all sims, and have said as much a number of times.

If I were out to criticize GT5 at all costs I would not have posted repeatedly (both here and at FP) how impressed I am with the changes made to the suspension model with the 2.09 update.

Odd that isn't it.

I don’t think they have changed much at all regarding suspension since it first came out. People have tendency I feel to overstate things like seeing / feeling things that aren’t really making any difference like some people think that you have to warm up tyres in GT5 to be able to drive as fast as possible when it is absolute nonsense.

So if I was out to defend GT5 at all costs, why do I have posts containing criticism, odd that isn’t it?

No they did not just get a karting racxe and a passing challenge.

The information is here at GTP for all to read, multiple sighting laps with instructors and then instructor guided laps were completed before they were allowed to run time trail laps and autocross events, only then did they move onto the Kart event.

That was day one of five for this year.

So no they didn't just do a Kart race and a passing challenge before going out and competitively racing each other, mainly because neither Sony, PD or Nissan want the press resulting from an unprepared driver being injured in an accident.

Even when all that's completed and they have a winner they don't just throw them into a car and let them race, but rather they have a very grueling and challenging series of month ahead of them as they train intensively to enter their first professional race.

I have the upmost respect for the finalists and winner of the GTA, and am getting wholeheartedly sick of those who underplay the work involved in getting them through the bootcamp and the winner into a race seat.

In claiming that most of what they need to know comes from GT5 you are doing a massive disservice to the drivers themselves and the instructors who guide them through all of this.

It will probably be a good idea for you read up on what they did then if you talking about this year’s EU GT Academy, maybe you can understand better what actually happened than what you thought happened. The winner does start racing within a month of winning by the way. Drivers are thrown in deep end whether in race camp or on driver development programme as it is for their own good. They get a bit of tuition yes which I'm sure drivers in competition take onboard as much as possible but more could be about mental toughness.

You could simply go back and re-read it from my older posts in a number of different threads. This is after all not the first time I've been through this with you.

However, once again, just because they are quick in a sim that alone doesn't mean they are quick/safe/competitive in a real car on a real track. That's not a slight to any of them, its a simple and basic observation.

From what I understand from before you think it is just a marketing exercise, final stage is more important in selection and have no regard about GT5 / sim element in it when something like 99.99% of people are filtered out mainly just by GT5.

Anyway above, you demonstrated you don’t know much about what is happening in the programme so when you might be more informed, you can see that the guys with so little experience are doing very well and that is due to mainly down to I believe from their sim understanding. These guys generally have understanding of speed that top drivers in the world have. Even watching videos, you can see how some of these guys are relating to game. Once the drivers build up confidence and feel of car and track, they are at quite a high level for their relative little experience. You probably had more track time in a day in a car than most had in their life.

No I'm saying he's exaggerating considerably. Will one go sideways on a track at 20mph? Yes the tyres are shot, its below 6 degrees celcus or you massively unsettle it. Will one step out from power-over on the road at 20mph? Well the two I've been in (driven one and passengered another) didn't.

Watch the video at the following link....

http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planetevovideos/281431/video_toyota_gt_86_quick_test.html

....for a track test that is a lots less dramatic (less POWWWWAAAAAAAHHHHH) and a lot more informative. You can't just to a corner and mash the throttle to get it to oversteer (it simply doesn't have the torque), rather you have to work it to get the back out. Notice in the video the little Scandinavian flicks to get the rear to pop out he uses a number of times.

Jeremy will have been at about 40mph at most though regardless if what he is saying is true or not.