Can GT5 translate into reality?

[Scaff]

I’m sure there are there are times when they get decent sim drivers who drive well in real life too.

And in general terms that is not the case.

Did you not even read the comments section where actual driver comments? If you don’t try and drive with no dramas all the way, you won’t really learn limit of track and car. The driver in question was driving at a limit he was comfortable with.

Yes I did and to be honest I'm in agreement with the instructor (as is the person who made the video - something you omitted to mention).

What's also rather clear from your comment about drama is your lack of actual experience on this subject, and if the driver above claims to have been within the limit he was comfortable with them why does he nearly loose the car? That would be because he doesn't say he was driving in that video within his limit.

"And as Dale wrote there are places I entered too early, too late or too fast because I was still learning. The important thing is if I know what I'm doing out there so that I don't crash right away even if I make a mistake."

The reason he didn't crash? Not a sim that's for sure, he's works for Goodyear as a tyre tester. The point of that article (as apposed to the first one) is to illustarte another thing you can't learn perfectly from a sim, the layout of a track.

I’m just talking about braking.

Good for you. Now tell me again what you experience of using track braking skills on the road is?

Just like I feel if I read a racing theory book, it should help to take it to real world, it does not mean it is nonsense unless I personally try it.

And in reading that theory book are you going to automatically be able to put it into practice?

What if that theory book had parts that were wrong or missing (as almost every sim does), what would you do when reality doesn't match and your over-committed in a corner as a result?

I don’t think they have changed much at all regarding suspension since it first came out. People have tendency I feel to overstate things like seeing / feeling things that aren’t really making any difference like some people think that you have to warm up tyres in GT5 to be able to drive as fast as possible when it is absolute nonsense.

Then take it to the 2.09 thread and discuss it, as videos posted quite cearly show a change in the suspension.

It will probably be a good idea for you read up on what they did then if you talking about this year’s EU GT Academy, maybe you can understand better what actually happened than what you thought happened. The winner does start racing within a month of winning by the way. Drivers are thrown in deep end whether in race camp or on driver development programme as it is for their own good. They get a bit of tuition yes which I'm sure drivers in competition take onboard as much as possible but more could be about mental toughness.

Given that I just checked that info with Famine's report from this years bootcamp I don't think my memory is an issue.

Please keep in mind that you stated categorically that they had a kart race and passing exercise before racing against each other, as such I don't think its my recall that's the issue.

From what I understand from before you think it is just a marketing exercise, final stage is more important in selection and have no regard about GT5 / sim element in it when something like 99.99% of people are filtered out mainly just by GT5.

Its is a marketing exercise, what other reason do you belive it exists for?

As for the other points, what I have said is that you could replace GT5 with any other sim and it would still serve the same purpose and I did so as a rebuttal to those who believe that the existence of the GTA proves is evidence that GT5s physics are above reproach.

Jeremy will have been at about 40mph at most though regardless if what he is saying is true or not.

And you know this how? What we know is that he was doing at least 63mph at the entry of one corner, Croft is one of the faster tracks in the UK and that JC is rather prone to 'Powwwwwaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh' exaggerations.

This is however a discussion for another thread (and it has nothing to do with this one), but I do like how you ignored the Evo link, it may not be as exciting as the JC one, but it is a lot more informative about the dynamics and balance of the car.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

And in general terms that is not the case.

That general term could be applied to anyone who drives on racetracks. Generally not everyone is going to be brilliant.

Yes I did and to be honest I'm in agreement with the instructor (as is the person who made the video - something you omitted to mention).

What's also rather clear from your comment about drama is your lack of actual experience on this subject, and if the driver above claims to have been within the limit he was comfortable with them why does he nearly loose the car? That would be because he doesn't say he was driving in that video within his limit.



The reason he didn't crash? Not a sim that's for sure, he's works for Goodyear as a tyre tester. The point of that article (as apposed to the first one) is to illustarte another thing you can't learn perfectly from a sim, the layout of a track.

I am not saying you can learn 100% how a car at any time can drive at a track and instantly know the limit just by driving any old car in a sim and running some laps on it, which is also what the driver is saying. My comment from last post still stands.

If the person drives so conservatively that he can’t experience any mistakes, then he will not learn how the car behaves on that track near the limit. Look at F1 on recent US Grand Prix, they all drive at a limit they are comfortable with to explore track and have some drama elements. Quite a few of them would have played on sim before the track. They are all top drivers making mistakes purposefully to get a good knowledge of how a certain car, with certain tyre on a track with changing grip levels will behave. They will know track layout, they will not know track limit and surface with car they have as everything is very dynamic and still new. They will not lose the car in general as they give themselves safety margins like driver in question. Reason why he did not crash is simple, he can deal with these situations. If he went off the track, then you have a point but it was controlled as it should be when testing limit on a track like Nurburgring with no big run off areas.

Good for you. Now tell me again what you experience of using track braking skills on the road is?

Well I can brake as good with my left foot as I can with my right and if I compare to my brother he can’t. I think that is about down to being able to sensitively brake even on DFGT pedals. I don’t have much real life driving experience at all though. Only drove once this year. Hopefully next year I can get more experience.

And in reading that theory book are you going to automatically be able to put it into practice?

What if that theory book had parts that were wrong or missing (as almost every sim does), what would you do when reality doesn't match and your over-committed in a corner as a result?

You will not automatically be able to put it into practice.

First of all I will use common sense. I will also use a number of sources to build a good idea of what should happen and will drive to a safe limit until I get confidence from learning from mistakes. Any missing parts, could easily be solved through adaptability as that is what is needed when you don’t fully know what is going to happen. You can put it into practice only through experience, otherwise you will not be trying to. Getting a feel is key, similar thing can be applied to sims, you need to build a feel of it and even if you know quite a lot about sim, you might struggle with a different input device until you get an experience of it and learn quickly from it and put what you learnt into practice.

Then take it to the 2.09 thread and discuss it, as videos posted quite cearly show a change in the suspension.

Most of positive experience is just online being like offline physics.

Given that I just checked that info with Famine's report from this years bootcamp I don't think my memory is an issue.

Please keep in mind that you stated categorically that they had a kart race and passing exercise before racing against each other, as such I don't think its my recall that's the issue.

Can you provide a link, what you posted before was incorrect anyway to an extent.

I did not state that categorically. I was saying they were the experiences they had in their race camp journey leading up to final race. Kart race was on first day if I recall correctly.

Its is a marketing exercise, what other reason do you belive it exists for?

As for the other points, what I have said is that you could replace GT5 with any other sim and it would still serve the same purpose and I did so as a rebuttal to those who believe that the existence of the GTA proves is evidence that GT5s physics are above reproach.

Main point is to turn a virtual racer to a real one. Marketing element is in most things, say like F1, but that is not the main point though is it? It helps with the funding as it sure is not cheap these events.

I can’t think of anyone who thinks GT5s physics are above reproach. Also replacing with different sims, you might get different drivers at top in other sims and different competitive order. For example someone who finished 2nd in World rankings in this years EU GT Academy is seconds off pace in Forza 4 last time I checked. You might not get as many people entering too due to being less popular some sims. Also some sims might not be as fair as GT. I found some sims I can be quite a bit off pace, where a few drivers find some magic pace and some others that is not the case. Project CARS seems to feel like GT in terms of fairness but I think GT5 is probably the fairest out there as I think it limits inputs of all devices to have similar detail. Don’t know fully about Project CARS. You should get hopefully still a top driver out of it but competitiveness might be less or (who knows) more.

And you know this how? What we know is that he was doing at least 63mph at the entry of one corner, Croft is one of the faster tracks in the UK and that JC is rather prone to 'Powwwwwaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh' exaggerations.

This is however a discussion for another thread (and it has nothing to do with this one), but I do like how you ignored the Evo link, it may not be as exciting as the JC one, but it is a lot more informative about the dynamics and balance of the car.

Limit of 2nd gear I think is around 60mph. He was not near maximum revs, so as estimation I would say about 40mph or less at max but could be around 20-30mph mark if Jeremy was true to his word. I would need to examine it more to be more close to being sure which speed he was at.

I did watch Evo link and also another video with Chris driving it. Jeremy also describes the car well too in his way.

 

[Goshin2568]

Good for you. Now tell me again what you experience of using track braking skills on the road is?

Left foot braking, smoothness, squeezing on and off the brake pedal, knowing exactly how much brake to apply to go from one speed down to a lower speed in a given time period.

And in reading that theory book are you going to automatically be able to put it into practice?

What if that theory book had parts that were wrong or missing (as almost every sim does), what would you do when reality doesn't match and your over-committed in a corner as a result?

But you are missing the key step here. Reading it in a book or practicing it in a sim doesn't automatically mean someone has to do that on the track. That info passes through a brain before it transfers to your hands and feet to the car. I don't know why you keep pushing that. Just because you read something in a theory book or try it in a sim doesn't mean you go out and try it straight away on a racetrack. Common sense. It exists. Its perfectly possible for someone to read some false information and then not be "over-commited in a corner". How is this possible? Because people have brains. Just because you have seen or read about people who apparently don't doesn't mean you can make generalizations that all or even most suffer from the same stupidity.

 

[05XR8]

Hey guys. I'm looking for serious advice. Not some cookie cutter response like "video games don't help in real life". I am a pretty quick driver for my age and have decent car control with an understanding of correcting. Will these things that I'm good at in GT5 help when I start driving?

Your initial understanding regarding the characteristics of handling will definitely help. A person who has never seen a car can be taught to drive one. My step-son has played racing games and watched me play GT. he has seen my enthusiasm and love of cars and no doubt he said all those things helped him when it came time to get behind the wheel of a real car. You're already a step ahead.

 

[Scaff]

That general term could be applied to anyone who drives on racetracks. Generally not everyone is going to be brilliant.

Ability is not the only issue here, confidence is and the two are not the same.

I've spent most of my adult life working in learning and development for adults (a good deal of it in the motor industry as well) and am well versed in looking at situations such as this. As such I'm going to use a model that is rather well known within learning and development to help explain what I am talking about.


People go through four stages when learning (as described by Maslow), which are

1. Unconscious Incompetence - We don’t know that we don’t know
2. Conscious Incompetence - We know that we don’t know
3. Conscious Competence - We work at what we don’t know
4. Unconscious Competence - We don’t have to think about knowing it

Driving (either of the road or track) is obviously a riak filled environment for those in the first two categories (and still is to a lesser degree in the third.

The danger with simulations (unless accompanied with the appropriate training) is that they can make someone who is Unconscious Incompetent believe they are Consciously Competent. The return down the scale to Conscious Incompetence can as a result be a painful and risk filled step.

Just to note that you can not get to Conscious Competence without experience of the real thing.


Can a sim help? As I have said it can to a small degree, but only with the correct application (which will almost always require the assistance of a professional trainer) and its benefits are tiny in comparison to experience of the real thing.

If the person drives so conservatively that he can’t experience any mistakes, then he will not learn how the car behaves on that track near the limit. Look at F1 on recent US Grand Prix, they all drive at a limit they are comfortable with to explore track and have some drama elements. Quite a few of them would have played on sim before the track. They are all top drivers making mistakes purposefully to get a good knowledge of how a certain car, with certain tyre on a track with changing grip levels will behave. They will know track layout, they will not know track limit and surface with car they have as everything is very dynamic and still new. They will not lose the car in general as they give themselves safety margins like driver in question. Reason why he did not crash is simple, he can deal with these situations. If he went off the track, then you have a point but it was controlled as it should be when testing limit on a track like Nurburgring with no big run off areas.

Are you actually attempting to both advocate that people seek out accidents on the track to try and learn from they and also suggesting that's what professional drivers do?

If so you are well out of your depth in terms of beginning to understand how you build speed and experience on a track and in a massively dangerous way.

The opposite of conservative driving is not seeking out accidents.

Well I can brake as good with my left foot as I can with my right and if I compare to my brother he can’t. I think that is about down to being able to sensitively brake even on DFGT pedals. I don’t have much real life driving experience at all though. Only drove once this year. Hopefully next year I can get more experience.

You've driven once this year yet you are already accomplished with left foot braking?

Sorry but I seriously doubht that on a track, at speed you would do anything other than pose a serious risk to others and yourself if you attempted to put that into practice.

Do you not see that everything you are saying shouts that as far as driving goes you are unconscious incompetent?

You will not automatically be able to put it into practice.

First of all I will use common sense. I will also use a number of sources to build a good idea of what should happen and will drive to a safe limit until I get confidence from learning from mistakes. Any missing parts, could easily be solved through adaptability as that is what is needed when you don’t fully know what is going to happen. You can put it into practice only through experience, otherwise you will not be trying to. Getting a feel is key, similar thing can be applied to sims, you need to build a feel of it and even if you know quite a lot about sim, you might struggle with a different input device until you get an experience of it and learn quickly from it and put what you learnt into practice.[/QUOTE]

And until you do put it into practice in the real world you will never be anymore than conscious incompetence, yet given your comments about left foot braking you are a way from that yet.

Most of positive experience is just online being like offline physics.

That's just one aspect of it.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=267780

Can you provide a link, what you posted before was incorrect anyway to an extent.

I did not state that categorically. I was saying they were the experiences they had in their race camp journey leading up to final race. Kart race was on first day if I recall correctly.

From the 2010 academy, which was one of the more detailed write-ups from Famine. And while I may have got the amount of time before the first pro race wrong, I most certainly did not underplay it to the degree you did (and yes you did state it categorical - repeatedly informing me I was wrong).

https://www.gtplanet.net/gt-academy-boot-camp-media-day/

Main point is to turn a virtual racer to a real one. Marketing element is in most things, say like F1, but that is not the main point though is it? It helps with the funding as it sure is not cheap these events.

No that's the purpose of the academy from a participants point of view.

PD and Sony do not benefit in any way from turning a virtual racer into a real one, the benefit from the publicity it brings.

Nissan certainly don't benefit from getting a driver this way, they could get drivers a hell of a lot easier and cheaper (as in zero cost to the team) that the academy route.

The cold hard fact of the matter is that this is a marketing exercise for Sony and Nissan, one which provides the GTA winners with a stunning opportunity, but that doesn't change that its a marketing exercise.

If you disagree feel free to describe exactly how Nissan and Sony benefit from running the GTA, be sure to include the Return on Investment they gain from it.

I can’t think of anyone who thinks GT5s physics are above reproach. Also replacing with different sims, you might get different drivers at top in other sims and different competitive order. For example someone who finished 2nd in World rankings in this years EU GT Academy is seconds off pace in Forza 4 last time I checked. You might not get as many people entering too due to being less popular some sims. Also some sims might not be as fair as GT. I found some sims I can be quite a bit off pace, where a few drivers find some magic pace and some others that is not the case. Project CARS seems to feel like GT in terms of fairness but I think GT5 is probably the fairest out there as I think it limits inputs of all devices to have similar detail. Don’t know fully about Project CARS. You should get hopefully still a top driver out of it but competitiveness might be less or (who knows) more.

I've come across plenty in the past who use GT5 as a benchmark rather than reality and some who have stated that GT5 has the finest physics of any sim (on any platform).

Left foot braking, smoothness, squeezing on and off the brake pedal, knowing exactly how much brake to apply to go from one speed down to a lower speed in a given time period.

Lets keep in mind that on a track you are for a lot of the time well above road legal speeds (even after braking for a corner), you are also using brake progression at a totally different rate, to a much greater level of braking force. So knowing how much brake force to apply to get from 60 to 30 on the track will involve applying that force a lot quicker and getting to 100% of the available tyre grip as quickly as possible (not something I would suggest you do on the road and certainly very different from the brake application and levels you would need on the road).

Left foot braking has little to no use on the road in day to day driving, unless you are hooning about.

Smoothness I agree with.

So as I said originally, only a small degree of tracking skills are directly applicable to road driving.

But you are missing the key step here. Reading it in a book or practicing it in a sim doesn't automatically mean someone has to do that on the track. That info passes through a brain before it transfers to your hands and feet to the car. I don't know why you keep pushing that. Just because you read something in a theory book or try it in a sim doesn't mean you go out and try it straight away on a racetrack. Common sense. It exists. Its perfectly possible for someone to read some false information and then not be "over-commited in a corner". How is this possible? Because people have brains. Just because you have seen or read about people who apparently don't doesn't mean you can make generalizations that all or even most suffer from the same stupidity.

No I'm not missing a key step here at all, but a very large difference does exist between a theory book (or at least good ones such as Going Faster or Speed Secrets) in that they are far more likely to move someone into or closer to step two of the learning path (Conscious Incompetence).

They re-enforce that this is not quick, easy or straightforward, they also (if good) are going to be accurate; and also a massive benefit as you move to steps three and four on the track.

A sim doesn't work in this way, people can pass through the all four stages in a sim, gaining Unconscious Competence. What they often fail to then realise is that they have done that only for that sim. Once they take a car out onto the track for the very first time (if a sim is all they have as a frame of reference) they are often in stage 1 or even worse feel they are also at stage 4.

Now of course not everyone does it, but I've seen plenty who do, and its not just in the arena of track driving. I was talking to by step-father (who is a guitar teacher) who has found the exact same thing with people coming from the likes of RB3. They can fire out any tune on that perfectly, they may well have spent a fortune on the RB3 Fender which allows you to 'fret' (via buttons) and pick separate strings. They feel they should then be able to ignore all the basics of playing the guitar and just go straight the level of playing they had on RB3. Problem is when they try they fall apart, with a guitar you simply risk looking foolish in front of a teacher, with a car you risk a lot more.

You can dismiss this assumed ability to transfer skills all you like, but I've enough experience in learning and skills development to know that its both real and far, far more common that you are assuming.

Keep in mind that throughout all of this I have not said that some of the skills can't be transferred, simply that its far less than many assume; and that its both the good and the bad that you transfer (and knowing which is which of those can be a painful exercise).

 

[Goshin2568]

Can a sim help? As I have said it can to a small degree, but only with the correct application (which will almost always require the assistance of a professional trainer) and its benefits are tiny in comparison to experience of the real thing.

I'm sorry but that's absolutely, completely BS. Anyone with half of a brain can think "Hmm... should I jump in this car having never driven on a track and go 100%? No, that's a stupid idea."

You can learn so much from a sim. You just can. Racing lines (not for a specific car or track, but just how to find them in general), quick reactions, slow in fast out, etc. etc. etc. That's not a small degree. That's most of what you need to know to drive around in a track. As long as someone is smart enough to take it easy when first getting on the track, once they get used to a few things it starts to feel natural, because they learned it already. You are making the process much harder than it sounds.

They feel they should then be able to ignore all the basics of playing the guitar and just go straight the level of playing they had on RB3.

Yes, but that is their fault. Any one who isn't an absolute idiot should realize that RB3 can't teach them the guitar. If they don't have the small amount of common sense to realize that then that's their fault. RB3 is the "root" of it. Their stupidity is the "root"

 

[Scaff]

I'm sorry but that's absolutely, completely BS. Anyone with half of a brain can think "Hmm... should I jump in this car having never driven on a track and go 100%? No, that's a stupid idea."

You can learn so much from a sim. You just can. Racing lines (not for a specific car or track, but just how to find them in general), quick reactions, slow in fast out, etc. etc. etc. That's not a small degree. That's most of what you need to know to drive around in a track. As long as someone is smart enough to take it easy when first getting on the track, once they get used to a few things it starts to feel natural, because they learned it already. You are making the process much harder than it sounds.


Yes, but that is their fault. Any one who isn't an absolute idiot should realize that RB3 can't teach them the guitar. If they don't have the small amount of common sense to realize that then that's their fault. RB3 is the "root" of it. Their stupidity is the "root"

Can I just ask how much direct experience you have of teaching anyone on any subject to effectively dismiss what I know to be correct based on near twenty years of doing so?

You throw common sense around as if it were in great supply and the reality is that its not, a huge amount of dangerous situations would simply not occur if common sense were in such great supply.

I come across people (utterly and completely normal people) on a daily basis who flout common sense, none of them are idiots or stupid, they are simply human beings that make connections that they should not.

I've run or partaken in at least twenty track based vehicle launches and on nearly everyone we have had someone overcook it because they have gotten overconfident, I'm fortunate that on none that I organised anyone has been hurt (which is why I always used proving grounds - nice big run-off areas). That however has not been the case on all the ones I've worked on. Your premise is that common sense should have told them that they should not have been able to do this, but the reality of the situation is that the real world and real people don't work like that.

I've both run and worked at events in which sims have been used, those in which the sims were used in a controlled way (i.e. the limitations of the sim were clearly laid out both before and after the sim session and by the accompanying pro driver when on track - these allow the sim to be used as an aid to the skills the driver is teaching and do provide a benefit under the guidance of someone who facilitates the customer to get the most out of it. The other type of event I have worked at (and would never run along these lines) put people in sims and then out on track (they were of course given mandatory safety briefings) with the pro driver along for early laps only.

The difference between the two approaches was quite clear, the former had a much lower level of 'off track' incidents and a much bigger improvement in the customers times and abilities, the later were often a nightmare to work at with more offs and less customer development.

Sims can be a tool and can aid drivers, but not without an understanding of the pros and cons, which for a lot of people requires someone to tell them exactly what they are (its only common sense if you know it), but alone and with no guidance (the level of which will depend on the driver in question) the value can be minimal and on occasion more of a danger than a benefit. A professional and/or experienced driver for example already knows what the limits of a simulation are and for them yes it can be a useful tool, for the average person playing a sim with only basic road experience its a totally different story, they have no frame of reference to know what is and isn't accurate, as such its not common sense for them, that doesn't make them stupid or ignorant, it simply makes them inexperienced (or more accurately Unconsciously Incompetent).

But hey what the hell do I know about how people learn and how skills are transferred, I only do it for a living.

 

[Joey D]

I'm sorry but that's absolutely, completely BS. Anyone with half of a brain can think "Hmm... should I jump in this car having never driven on a track and go 100%? No, that's a stupid idea."

You can learn so much from a sim. You just can. Racing lines (not for a specific car or track, but just how to find them in general), quick reactions, slow in fast out, etc. etc. etc. That's not a small degree. That's most of what you need to know to drive around in a track. As long as someone is smart enough to take it easy when first getting on the track, once they get used to a few things it starts to feel natural, because they learned it already. You are making the process much harder than it sounds.

Have you ever raced on a track?

I've been playing racing video games for 20+ years and the amount they've helped me on a track is pretty minor. Sure it helps with learning concepts like apexing corners, but it helps in no way with the act of driving quickly. I used to think that video games could help me, then I actually went out and drove in a race and saw just how misguided that opinion was.

Video games like GT and Forza aren't even realistic enough to provide you with adequate training. You have to remember that video games are still designed with entertainment in mind so there's bound to be some trade off with realism so you don't throw your console out the window. Sure they both are very realistic video games, but they are still just games. The biggest fault when it comes to these games is that they don't simulate one of the more glaring issues with real racing, fear. When I'm racing in a video game I don't mind going all out because if I spin or hit something it isn't the end of the world, if I do the same thing in a real car I could be seriously hurt or end up destroying my car, which isn't exactly cheap. Another thing that isn't simulated is g-force, which there is quite a bit of during a race.

Video games can be used to help teach you the principals of racing, but I think you could learn the same thing by reading a book, watching movies, etc. on the same subject. Nothing will beat actual seat time behind a car, even a cheap car. I can honestly say I learned more about racing by driving a Dodge Neon around a track for 4 hours than I have in 20 years of driving Ferrari's and the like around virtual tracks.

 

[Goshin2568]

Have you ever raced on a track?

I've been playing racing video games for 20+ years and the amount they've helped me on a track is pretty minor. Sure it helps with learning concepts like apexing corners, but it helps in no way with the act of driving quickly. I used to think that video games could help me, then I actually went out and drove in a race and saw just how misguided that opinion was.

Video games like GT and Forza aren't even realistic enough to provide you with adequate training. You have to remember that video games are still designed with entertainment in mind so there's bound to be some trade off with realism so you don't throw your console out the window. Sure they both are very realistic video games, but they are still just games. The biggest fault when it comes to these games is that they don't simulate one of the more glaring issues with real racing, fear. When I'm racing in a video game I don't mind going all out because if I spin or hit something it isn't the end of the world, if I do the same thing in a real car I could be seriously hurt or end up destroying my car, which isn't exactly cheap. Another thing that isn't simulated is g-force, which there is quite a bit of during a race.

Video games can be used to help teach you the principals of racing, but I think you could learn the same thing by reading a book, watching movies, etc. on the same subject. Nothing will beat actual seat time behind a car, even a cheap car. I can honestly say I learned more about racing by driving a Dodge Neon around a track for 4 hours than I have in 20 years of driving Ferrari's and the like around virtual tracks.

Yes haha. I've raced everything from small hatchbacks to Indy cars. And yes, I agree, sims are very basic in what they can teach, but they are very important basics. Just learning things like braking techniques, racing lines, etc. are what you need to get from no skills to decent. No, it can't help you go from decent to great, but it gives beginners a good start and good footing in the business of race driving.

Can I just ask how much direct experience you have of teaching anyone on any subject to effectively dismiss what I know to be correct based on near twenty years of doing so?

You throw common sense around as if it were in great supply and the reality is that its not, a huge amount of dangerous situations would simply not occur if common sense were in such great supply.

I come across people (utterly and completely normal people) on a daily basis who flout common sense, none of them are idiots or stupid, they are simply human beings that make connections that they should not.

I've run or partaken in at least twenty track based vehicle launches and on nearly everyone we have had someone overcook it because they have gotten overconfident, I'm fortunate that on none that I organised anyone has been hurt (which is why I always used proving grounds - nice big run-off areas). That however has not been the case on all the ones I've worked on. Your premise is that common sense should have told them that they should not have been able to do this, but the reality of the situation is that the real world and real people don't work like that.

I've both run and worked at events in which sims have been used, those in which the sims were used in a controlled way (i.e. the limitations of the sim were clearly laid out both before and after the sim session and by the accompanying pro driver when on track - these allow the sim to be used as an aid to the skills the driver is teaching and do provide a benefit under the guidance of someone who facilitates the customer to get the most out of it. The other type of event I have worked at (and would never run along these lines) put people in sims and then out on track (they were of course given mandatory safety briefings) with the pro driver along for early laps only.

The difference between the two approaches was quite clear, the former had a much lower level of 'off track' incidents and a much bigger improvement in the customers times and abilities, the later were often a nightmare to work at with more offs and less customer development.

Sims can be a tool and can aid drivers, but not without an understanding of the pros and cons, which for a lot of people requires someone to tell them exactly what they are (its only common sense if you know it), but alone and with no guidance (the level of which will depend on the driver in question) the value can be minimal and on occasion more of a danger than a benefit. A professional and/or experienced driver for example already knows what the limits of a simulation are and for them yes it can be a useful tool, for the average person playing a sim with only basic road experience its a totally different story, they have no frame of reference to know what is and isn't accurate, as such its not common sense for them, that doesn't make them stupid or ignorant, it simply makes them inexperienced (or more accurately Unconsciously Incompetent).

But hey what the hell do I know about how people learn and how skills are transferred, I only do it for a living.

Look, I know you have a lot of experience with this and I respect that. But what you are saying goes against not only logic, but every ounce of experience that I have with the subject. I have personally witnessed 6, if I remember correctly, experiences of people with no prior racing skills learning on a sim and then going and racing on a real track. And every single one of the 6 was a huge success. The demographics were wide, ranging from a 13 year old boy to a 43 year old woman, with and assortment of teenagers and adults in between, and every one picked up on it almost instantly. Yes there was learning to do, but I've also seen quite a few people who go straight to the track for their learning, and the difference in the learning curve is immense. It's night and day.

So when you tell me that in all your experience, that sim racing experience usually doesn't help, hinders actually, I find that incredibly hard to believe.

 

[Kent]

Hard to believe I was thinking the same about your post.

Remember there is a difference between correlation and causation.

 

[Goshin2568]

Hard to believe I was thinking the same about your post.

Remember there is a difference between correlation and causation.

That exact argument could be used against "Sim racing causes people to be overconfident and crash".

 

[Scaff]

Look, I know you have a lot of experience with this and I respect that. But what you are saying goes against not only logic, but every ounce of experience that I have with the subject.

I have personally witnessed 6, if I remember correctly, experiences of people with no prior racing skills learning on a sim and then going and racing on a real track. And every single one of the 6 was a huge success. The demographics were wide, ranging from a 13 year old boy to a 43 year old woman, with and assortment of teenagers and adults in between, and every one picked up on it almost instantly. Yes there was learning to do, but I've also seen quite a few people who go straight to the track for their learning, and the difference in the learning curve is immense. It's night and day.

It may go against your perception of logic, but it most certainly don't go again the logic that exists within the cycles of learning and development, the barriers and aids to learning, etc, etc.

With the greatest respect if your sample size is six people its not exactly the largest pool of data to work with, from my perspective I'm talking about thousands of people put through product launch training events and of those hundreds put through with sims involved. I'm also not talking about gut feelings on this either, but both assessments of the participants in many of he events and feedback from all of them.

So when you tell me that in all your experience, that sim racing experience usually doesn't help, hinders actually, I find that incredibly hard to believe.

I have already said that I would rather you didn't misrepresent what I have said, so by your own measure it should be common sense to not repeat that action. Fortunately I don't resort to pejoratives under such circumstances.

I have not (once again for the cheap seats) said that sim racing experience doesn't usually help on the track, what I said repeatedly and consistently is that the benefits are not as great as many make out and that you don't just bring over the advantageous stuff but also the issues from the sim as well.

What I have said is that the benefits to road driving are very, very small and that benefits to track driving are not as large as many make out.

Sims can be a tool and can aid drivers, but not without an understanding of the pros and cons, which for a lot of people requires someone to tell them exactly what they are (its only common sense if you know it), but alone and with no guidance (the level of which will depend on the driver in question) the value can be minimal and on occasion more of a danger than a benefit. A professional and/or experienced driver for example already knows what the limits of a simulation are and for them yes it can be a useful tool, for the average person playing a sim with only basic road experience its a totally different story, they have no frame of reference to know what is and isn't accurate, as such its not common sense for them, that doesn't make them stupid or ignorant, it simply makes them inexperienced (or more accurately Unconsciously Incompetent).

Once again you are assuming that I have said nothing can be taken from a sim and transferred to the real world, which I have not. What I said is that is not close to 80% (your figure) and its that people do not know the crossover than can be dangerous.

I have not said once in this thread that nothing is transferable, what I disagreed with is that all of the skills required for racing can be directly applied to the street. The empasis is mine and its the important part.

Which by my count is at least three times now I have had to ask you to stop mis-quoting me in this regard, which either means you are doing so deliberately (which is an AUP violation), your not actually reading my posts fully before replying or I've not made myself clear enough (and given the number of times I've said it that's unlikely).

 

[Goshin2568]

It may go against your perception of logic, but it most certainly don't go again the logic that exists within the cycles of learning and development, the barriers and aids to learning, etc, etc.

With the greatest respect if your sample size is six people its not exactly the largest pool of data to work with, from my perspective I'm talking about thousands of people put through product launch training events and of those hundreds put through with sims involved. I'm also not talking about gut feelings on this either, but both assessments of the participants in many of he events and feedback from all of them.



I have already said that I would rather you didn't misrepresent what I have said, so by your own measure it should be common sense to not repeat that action. Fortunately I don't resort to pejoratives under such circumstances.

I have not (once again for the cheap seats) said that sim racing experience doesn't usually help on the track, what I said repeatedly and consistently is that the benefits are not as great as many make out and that you don't just bring over the advantageous stuff but also the issues from the sim as well.









Which by my count is at least three times now I have had to ask you to stop mis-quoting me in this regard, which either means you are doing so deliberately (which is an AUP violation), your not actually reading my posts fully before replying or I've not made myself clear enough (and given the number of times I've said it that's unlikely).

You know what, you're right. I can get on board with this statement.

Sims can be a tool and can aid drivers, but not without an understanding of the pros and cons, which for a lot of people requires someone to tell them exactly what they are (its only common sense if you know it), but alone and with no guidance (the level of which will depend on the driver in question) the value can be minimal and on occasion more of a danger than a benefit. A professional and/or experienced driver for example already knows what the limits of a simulation are and for them yes it can be a useful tool, for the average person playing a sim with only basic road experience its a totally different story, they have no frame of reference to know what is and isn't accurate, as such its not common sense for them, that doesn't make them stupid or ignorant, it simply makes them inexperienced (or more accurately Unconsciously Incompetent).

👍


But... The entire reason for me disagreeing with you in the first place was this post:

...you don't drive. You don't have decent car control in anything other than a virtual world, and if you think that the manner in which cars in GT represents reality you could well be in for a nasty surprise. You can 'drive' a virtual representation of a car around a 'virtual' track in an environment that poses zero risk to you and others, try and recreate your 'car control' when you start driving and you will pose a significant risk to yourself and others.

I believe that instinctively a lot of things transfer over, and believe that the results of his "car control" would be more in line with this story.

I have just recently started driving in real life after playing GT5 with a driving wheel for a few years. While I agree that no video game can replace real life experience and the feel of how a car behaves when you are actually behind the wheel some skills may cross over. I was surprised that during an evasive driving class, while on the skid pad I instinctively counter-steered the correct amount and straightened back out at the right time (unlike most of the other students). I believe that is due to the countless hours I've spent in front of the TV with my little plastic wheel as unlikely as that might seem.

 

[Scaff]

But... The entire reason for me disagreeing with you in the first place was this post:

Which is a post from someone who does not drive already stating that they have good car control.

The simple truth of the matter is that they may or may not have, but no doubt existed in his comment. He already knows how to correct! That these comments exist show someone who believes that they are able to drive, yet the reality is that they haven't driven on the road (his words). Do you honestly not think that should ring even the tiniest alarm bell for driving on the public road?

I believe that instinctively a lot of things transfer over, and believe that the results of his "car control" would be more in line with this story.

I've seen people take to a skid pan and know instinctively what to do without ever being on a sim. Alone its an interesting anecdotal statement and by his own words "some skills may cross over" and a skid pan is a small part of the entire range of driving skills.

Keep in mind that some people, regardless of the amount of theory they put in and practice they have, never get the hang of countersteer.

While we agree that some skills can transfer, we are I believe not going to agree on the degree with which it occurs. What I will say is that as sims improve (and they of course are) the benefits they can provide will increase and the problems they can pose will decrease. I do however (as things stand at this moment in time) firmly believe that many overstate the advantage they can provide and ignore the cons that they bring with the pros.