Can I have a little less understeer please?

[userone]

My advice, ignore all the other setup advice and concentrate on your technique. Get out and drive as many FF cars as you can. Trail braking is important on FF cars and then a very gradual application of the throttle. You should only mess around with the setup once your technique is right, otherwise your just moving the goalposts for yourself. That said I'm sure all the setup advice is given with the best possible intent. But you can't setup the car around the properties of FF, you have to drive around them.

 

[Z32]

don't put power on too soon. Don't brake too hard either.

probably the most helpful ideas. its hard to hold back full throttle when exiting a corner but you gotta learn patience/restraint. think "slow in, medium out" for corners =P

 

[NSX-R]

Thanks everyone...The problem I am having is that I LOVE driving stock cars, that means I am a little reluctant to touch the settings. Of course, I'll try everyone's, especially JohnBM01 's (thanks for great deal of input) advices.

I bought GT4 because of it's realism. I bought it because I want to improve my driving skills on every drivetrain. Rs are ok now, and 4wd are easy to master(great stability), and Fs are fight me all the way. Because my father is leaving a Protege, and I don't want to crash it :-(

So, I am really thankful to all of your kind advices, but I, personally am seeking for solutions other than settings. I tried N3s, and to tell you the truth, it's a LOT better than N2s. However, understeer is still moderate and wheel-spin is just unreasonable. For example, I was driving a DC5, entering a hairpin. Brake late(that car has GREAT brakes), steer(DFP) and loose the brake pedal gradually. Touch the apex, let it "float". Then the coner opens, punch the gas.Wah, wah, wah... Understeer + wheel-spin... For god's sakes, DC5 is the best FF around! Ok, understeer, accepted, but wheel-spin on a 215 horsepower stock car with N3s!!!

I know not the put power on too fast, but sometimes you see the damned Rx7 in front of you pulling off with crappy tires and you just cannot keep up!

Now it's for my question: Do I just floor the gas and get out of the coner with smoke, or with a little bit of squeal, or no scary sound at all? Which is the fastest?

 

[Azuremen]

Realize in real life I have wheel spin on a 190 HP MR2 on semi slick tires coming outta 1st and 2nd gear corners.

So wheel spin on a 215 HP FF car doesn't sound too odd.

When I use to race a Vitz around alot in the game, I learned to be gentle getting off the brakes and the start my turn in, and to just barely get on the gas after the apex. Then floor it once you are basically out of hte turn. The reason for a little gas was to stablize the car and pull it around the turn... but this also requires careful steering manipulation...

 

[Sloth]

If you're going for lap times or races, tune the car on sport tires.

If you're going for technique improvement, use cheap tires like N2 or N3, but don't complain about understeer.

Especially when you're using them on a FWD car.

Also consider line.

FWD prefers a slow in/fast out late apexing line.

Just following widest radius line and apexing right in the middle will result in your car plowing off the track on exit.


Dude, I also enjoy driving cars in their stock form, but do not expect an easy drive or a fast lap time on comfort tires.

Sport tires are like a free upgrade that you should take for granted.

The tires you get for free in the tuner village are there purely for the experience, that's all.

 

[NSX-R]

I've got almost all the stock cars in the games already and I'm ready to lay off and enjoy. As I've said, I'm in pursuit for realism. I know GT4 isn't as real as, well, real life, but it's close enough for me. Street tires are "racing slicks" in real life and they are too arcady for my taste. I'm not complaning about understeering but I just want to understand how to banish it with the technique I'm prepared to learn.

So sloth, your point is that late apex is good, or early apex said in the motor trend thingy?

 

[Sloth]

This is a picture I drew for Ryen49 a while back, just to help him understand what I meant about something..

Hope that helps.

 

[Shentar]

My FF expirence has taught me that FF cars do like to understeer more. It helps me apex early so that it maximizes the straightway distance and gives me more time to accelerate. Also lifting off the throttle for a second in a turn helps get the rear end around so that it behaves and turns a little bit like a RWD car, but when you put the throttle down, you will go back to understeering. The throttle lifting helps me more than anything.
To me GT4 seems to make the cars looser, or it might just be that I am using the DFP instead of the DS2 like every other GT game I have played. My DC2 Integra Type R seems to handle very nicely. I can make the rear end step out when I want it to so that I can turn sharper.

 

[Uncle Harry]

You are limiting the options you have available to reduce understeer by not using better tires and suspension upgrades.
As I see it you can try three things.
Learn to use part throttle on coner exit.
Try exiting the corner in a gear higher than normal to stop the wheels spinning.
Learn to accept you wont beat a FR car with a FF car on normal tires and stock suspension.

 

[NSX-R]

Sloth, your drawing is very impressive, I fully understand now. Just out of curiousity, your drawing for FF/4wd is a little exaggerated to show the difference, right? When racing, is it really that big of a difference?

Harry, you are right. My "home track" is Costa di Amalfi... packed with hair-pins... but I have won a race when I used DC5 against a RX7 rs or rz(don't remeber) with 255 hp. Man, was it close! should note that I had N3 and rx7 had N2...

 

[JohnBM01]

Azuremen, you're the "Kei Car Specialist," huh? Some of the Kei and mini cars are front-wheel drive. In terms of real life, the only one I believe that SHOULDN'T be FWD is the Mercedes-Benz 110 Avantgarde, or whatever it's called. It's a cute little car that bears the Silver Arrow of Mercedes-Benz. Then it's the only Benz that I think doesn't look that nice in traditional Brilliant Silver. Anyhow, it's front/rear in real life, but GT4 made it FF. Beyond me, I know.

A FWD car I recently tested with the ASM toned down was the 263 horsepower, 2006 Mitsubishi Eclipse GT. I think the car handles more like a 4WD than a front, but it has one thing going for it even if you don't like recent Mitsubishis- 263 hp. The Eclipses of the mid-late 1990s were these rather cutsey machines packing maybe 150, 170, or around 200 horsepower. I didn't like the style change for it in 2000 or so because it killed the last Eclipse. This new one packs a good deal of power, and actually doesn't look too bad. Anyhow, after toning down the ASM and putting TCS at 1, I had a freaking drift car, man! A front-drive drifter. I thought the newer Eclipses were 4WD, but apparently not. Anyhow, you should buy one in the game. It's a pretty mean machine with aggressive styling without seriously overdoing it. Its main flaw could be some understeer and oversteer issues. Once you get the kinks worked out, this machine is b*tchin' to say the least. Sliding it like crazy reminded me of another Mitsubishi that I wish made a BIG comeback- the 3000GT, my 930hp weapon against LM race cars and 910hp Skylines that I used to beat most of the races in Gran Turismo 1. 3000GT, where art thou, damn you?

Anyways, cool car. Have fun. (^_^) By the way, I also love Costa di Amalfi.

 

[ving]

another consideration is to carry more speed into the corner rather than trying to accelerate thru it. ease on the gas rather than punching it too and your corner will be smoother.

 

[MrGrumpy]

I don't know whether this will help or not but this is what I do to help me adapt to the different types of vehicles, basically what I do is set a time with a resonably powered car then save the ghost and try to chase it down with a lower HP car.

For example:
(Arcade->Time Trial, Tsukuba [15 Laps], Power/Weight=0/0, Tyres=SM/SM, Aids: Off)
1st Run: 1'09.034 - Prelude Si VTEC '91 (Original Pace Car)
2nd Run: 1'09.790 - Civic TYPE R (EK) '98
3rd Run: 1'07.678 - Integra TYPE R (DC2) '99 (New Pace Car)
4th Run would then be using the Prelude again to chase down the ITR(DC2)

And so on...


What I've found personally is that it allows me to learn by setting my own pace and visibly allows you to see the advantage/disadvantage of different driving/cornering techniques because you are always chasing down a faster car.

It's also a good idea (if you have the space) to save each cars best lap so you can go back and examine the lap at a later date.

With all the good info already in this thread it may not be worth following this, but then again someone may find it useful.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

 

[Uncle Harry]

John.
The MB A class is a FF according to the Mercedes Spec sheet.

"Transmission
Drive Front-wheel drive with electronic stability program, ESP
Clutch Diaphragm spring clutch with automatic wear compensation
Gearbox, manual/autom. 5-speed/AUTOTRONIC
Gear ratio - manual 3.64 2.04 1.33 1.03 0.82 R 3.29
- automatic NA
Front axle reduction ratio with
manual/automatic gearbox 3.88/4.86 "

The BMW new 1 series is RWD. maybe you mixed them up.

 

[Skant]

The FF simulation is very good. The problem is that you can't feel the g forces you're pulling, and therefore don't realize how much you're overstretching the car.

FF cars plow like crazy when they're pushed beyond their limits. That's the nature of FF. That's why it's so inherently forgiving.

Slow it down a bit more. Hold just enough throttle to maintain your speed as you corner hard (and notice that it doesn't understeer). And then give it full power out of the turn drifting right up to the edge of the track.

When you're technique is right, your FF car won't plow like you own a farm.

Btw... watching videos to decide how a car simulation aught to handle is pretty useless. Too many major parts of driving technique are difficult or impossible to pick up from an external view.

- Skant

 

[NSX-R]

@Skant: Thanks for your advice. I usually concentrate on the internal views (in cockpit with steering, gas, brakes, even RPM) to get ideas. You are right, external views are mostly useless, but you can also see body-rolls and tire slipage more clear.

JohnBM01, Don't you think the 2006 eclipse's rear bumper is a little... to much? It looks like a supermodel's rear(It's not bad at all IRL, but on a car???)

@MrGrumpy: I tried that in GT3. I used my tuned dc2, then trd celica m, and at last spoon civic. I forgot why I stoped doing that in GT4. Thanks for reminding me!

Ving, are you suggesting "fast in, slow out"? If so, the car can suffer on the big straight ahead...

 

[///M-Spec]

My .02;

--There is a guided lap of Amalfi in one of the license tests. The car is an FF econobox with no power, riding on N2s... a Peugot or something. If your FF technique is good, you should be able to blitz the gold time with a second (or more) to spare. IMO, this test teaches you everything you need to know about how to manage FF driving technique and how to preserve momentum in the face of inadequate traction. Own this test.

--Study the traction circle and weight transfer effects and how FF cars are impacted by these rules. It will help you understand on a physics level what you are up against. There are lots of threads about them, particularly in General Automotive. I recall Famine and Duke explaining it particularly well a few months ago.

--With N tires, avoid 100% braking force. Leave some traction in reserve to trail brake with. If you watch many of the test demos, the demo driver very seldom uses full braking force. In fact, they often use this technique:

-Lift and slightly early turn-in
-While the car is headed in the direction of the apex, 60-80% braking, depending on the corner
-Some amount of trail braking
-Hits the apex with full lock on steering, also getting car rotated properly
-GENTLE application of the throttle while unwinding the wheel

--Remember an FF line may be slightly different than a FR or MR line. The difference may be just a few feet or even inches. But they are different.

--As others have said; turn all driving aids OFF. Leave them off. Who do you want driving? You, or a computer?

IMO GT4 is a fairly convincing facsimile of real life driving in most respects and accurately reflects the challenges of driving a real FF. I might even color it a little too lenient in some cases.

This is a picture I drew for Ryen49 a while back, just to help him understand what I meant about something..

Hope that helps.

Friends don't let friends early apex. Maybe you should draw an arrowhead to indicate direction of travel so no one gets confused.


M

 

[Scaff]

Azuremen, you're the "Kei Car Specialist," huh? Some of the Kei and mini cars are front-wheel drive. In terms of real life, the only one I believe that SHOULDN'T be FWD is the Mercedes-Benz 110 Avantgarde, or whatever it's called. It's a cute little car that bears the Silver Arrow of Mercedes-Benz. Then it's the only Benz that I think doesn't look that nice in traditional Brilliant Silver. Anyhow, it's front/rear in real life, but GT4 made it FF. Beyond me, I know.

Sorry John, but the Merc A-Class are all front wheel drive, always have been. They are the only models in the MB range that are FWD (Smart does not count as Merc).

MB made a big deal of it at launch as it was the first Merc to be FWD.

The new (and soon to be released) B Class, which shares the A Class underpinnings is also FWD.

 

[Sloth]

Sloth, your drawing is very impressive, I fully understand now. Just out of curiousity, your drawing for FF/4wd is a little exaggerated to show the difference, right? When racing, is it really that big of a difference?

That's kinda how it is.

Friends don't let friends early apex. Maybe you should draw an arrowhead to indicate direction of travel so no one gets confused.

My intention was to have the line start at where I said, "FWD/AWD Line".

If it isn't that obvious, then maybe the reader needs a little more experience.


Until now, I've never tried to do so much as even fathom how stupid it would be to ever use an 'early apexing line'.

It's like, "oh.. there's the apex.. there's the outside of the track.. theres the dirt.. there's the wall.. ok what did I do wrong?"

The idea is simply rediculous.

*waits for someone to explain why such a term even exists*

 

[Skant]

Until now, I've never tried to do so much as even fathom how stupid it would be to ever use an 'early apexing line'.

It's like, "oh.. there's the apex.. there's the outside of the track.. theres the dirt.. there's the wall.. ok what did I do wrong?"

The idea is simply rediculous.

*waits for someone to explain why such a term even exists*

That's easy. There are a number of cases where an early apex is superior.

The most common one is high speed corners. In low speed corners, the general rule is late apex. But the higher the speed, the earlier the apex should be. Why? Because the reason you late apex is so that you can accelerate harder out of the turn and thereby gain a higher exit speed. But in a high speed turn in high gear, there is much less torque available. 'In slow, out fast' turns into 'In slow, Out slow'. So you run an early apex to maintain the momentum instead. This is also true for underpowered cars in low speed corners. A Miata runs a much earlier apex than a Corvette.

The next likely candidate is the racing pass under braking. An early apex is chosen in order to cut inside the opponent car. This results in a lower exit speed, but the trick is to do it well enough to get in front of the other car and then move onto his line so he is forced to slow down. It's entirely legal... in fact, it's probably the most common form of passing. When it's done wrong and the late apexing lead car is not forced to slow down, it generally results in a pass and then immediate repass. And then the car that attempted the pass is left with a pitiful straightaway speed and falls way behind. Proper passing is not easy.

The third common situation is when turn entry speed is actually more important than turn exit speed. This can occur when the following straightaway is very short or nonexistent such as the first turn in a series of chicanes. This can be a case where 'fast in, slow out' is desirable. And therefore, an early apex is the correct line.

There are several other uncommon cases where an early apex is the better line. Such as uneven roads when a late apex would put the car out into a section of track with a reverse crown. Or if the track surface is inferior on the late apex line for some reason... such as broken asphault, gravel, or dirt (I''ve been caught out on that in RL... big rooster tail and slide!).

Earlier apexes become the rule rather than the exception when racing in the rain due to extreme limits on the torque that can be put down. AWD cars are much less affected.


Anyway... there are lots of cases where you early apex. Of course, late apex is by far the most common. But if you always late apex every corner, there will be certain corners where you are slow.

See? Not so rediculous.

- Skant

 

[///M-Spec]

My intention was to have the line start at where I said, "FWD/AWD Line".

People can't read intentions. They read words. Maybe 'the reader' recognizes that there is incomplete information being offered and assuming knowledge where it may not be warranted is a mistake.

If it isn't that obvious, then maybe the reader needs a little more experience.

Yes, it is obvious to me because I've seen a million late apex lines. But may not be for someone trying to understand what a race line is. Here's some friendly advice. Deep-six the attitude, son. As far as experience goes, I was driving cars when your ride was a bicycle and putting SCCA trophies on my shelf when you were waiting in line for a learner's permit. I'm just suggesting you do something to make your illustration more helpful and eliminate any possible confusion. I even made it nice with a smilie. Do it or don't. Doesn't matter to me. But don't make a big issue out of it or go out of your way to be rude.

*waits for someone to explain why such a term even exists*

Looks like Skant beat me to it with his excellent synopsis. Better yet, you can read a book sometime.


M

 

[Shentar]

This makes me want to pick up my copy of "Secrets of Solo II Racing" and read a bunch. It discusses early and late apexing quite a bite and in depth.

 

[///M-Spec]

This makes me want to pick up my copy of "Secrets of Solo II Racing" and read a bunch. It discusses early and late apexing quite a bite and in depth.

Henry Watt's book is a good read and especially well geared towards the novice driver. The illustrations look like someone did them on an old Apple II, but they are nonetheless effective.


M

 

[Shentar]

Henry Watt's book is a good read and especially well geared towards the novice driver. The illustrations look like someone did them on an old Apple II, but they are nonetheless effective.
M

Hahaha I love books that do that. Those kind of diagrams are surpisingly effective, as well as entertaining

I've tried praciting apex's and driving lines when I drive to work. There are a couple of sharp corners and such on my short drive. Its fun since I drive a Nissan Pickup to go through a corner faster than most cars go through them. I do get some dirty looks and, I am sure, most people think I am wreckless. I know what I am doing though. I am surpised at how much autocross expirence helps in just every day situations.

 

[jake11375]

Also, another thing that helps in turning ability in all cars is your stabalizers on a tuned suspension. The stabalizers on the front and rear help keep your car steady but diminish turning abilty. Try decreasing this on the rear for cars not eager to turn. Actually some cars I found have overall better turing ability with both front and rear on 0. And if you have a brake controller installed, increasing the rear strength helps on turn in. This will kick your rear end out while braking and turning to get the front wheels going in the direction you want. 👍

 

[GrandpaLonghair]

Hahaha I love books that do that. Those kind of diagrams are surpisingly effective, as well as entertaining

I've tried praciting apex's and driving lines when I drive to work. There are a couple of sharp corners and such on my short drive. Its fun since I drive a Nissan Pickup to go through a corner faster than most cars go through them. I do get some dirty looks and, I am sure, most people think I am wreckless. I know what I am doing though. I am surpised at how much autocross expirence helps in just every day situations.

Just remember dude, there`s crash damage & no invisible walls.

 

[KaiZen]

Just looked at the image drawn by Sloth and I think I would have switched the two around.. going deeper in an FR..

i don't know, might just be my style.. anyone else feel the same?



To those with understeer problems. It seems to me that the game was purely designed for the DFP steering wheel and therefore making steering inputs with a dual shock controller hyper sensitive.

Imagine how much you would steer, in real life, to take most corners. It's about a 1/4 to a 1/3 of a turn, so just a little before your arms get crossed over, and before the wheel is upside down. Most cars have about a 1/2 turns from the centre position to a full left or right lock, making that 1/4 turn of the wheel about a 1/6 turn from centre to full lock.

To make a 1/6 (or 16.6%) turn with the dual shock you must only move it a few millimetres or else you're probably turning too much. I'm guessing most people are moving the stick at least about half way across or worse, all the way across.

So, if you have a dual shock just keep practicing your steering inputs with or without driver aids. The best place being the gymkhana, of course. You'll get there eventually.


And that's my two cents..

As for me.. I'm saving for a wheel!!.. 900 degrees sounds pretty good to me

definately will be worth it!

 

[JohnBM01]

The usual "supermodel's rear" I keep hearing about is J-Lo, but I don't know if that's what you mean. I know Sir Mix-a-Lot talked about "Jane Fonda ain't got a motor in the back of her Honda...," so I don't know if that's what you mean either. The taillights do look a little like a Porsche, but perchance the car has subtle, if not aggressive style. I actually think this is a very nice machine. When me and my brother were talking about it, he said that it looked a little too much like the Cougar from around 1998.

Anyhow, you'll have to get used to FWD cars in License Tests and maybe some Driving Missions. What you're usually instructed in License Tests is to adjust the balance of your car if you begin to understeer. You have to do some light to moderate braking to get the weight shift working in your favor. I would check on the Driving Aids if I were you. If you have a suspension upgrade, you can work on modifying the camber angles. I normally use at maximum 4.0 at the front, and 3.0 at the rear. This is the more effectively use the tires. But I think in endurances, it may wear out your tires faster. So if you have money, buy some upgrades and make it shine. If you want to be stock, a few performance upgrades should help. It's just so long that they don't modify horsepower. If you want to keep HP stock, the only upgrade to be done is a simple oil change. I basically have some cars in my Garage just for tuning. Among the FWD cars, I have a [Sapphire Blue Pearl] 2003 Honda Accord, and a [UV Blue] 2006 Mitsubishi Eclipse GT. I recently bought a [Flame Red] 2003 Dodge Neon SRT-4, so I'll keep trying to find as many cars as I can for tuning.

Don't forget that you can enter any circuit to test your car, and certain circuits where you can compete in a Family Cup race. The pay may be 500 Credits for each win, but at least you're getting money from the races, and at least you're getting a chance to see how your car stacks up against others in your class. So don't be afraid to buy a few more machines to have fun, not to mention buy FWD to understand the limits of most FWD machines.

 

[ving]

Ving, are you suggesting "fast in, slow out"? If so, the car can suffer on the big straight ahead...

huh?
hell no! I am just saying dont plant your finger/foot too early otherwise you'll end up in the kitty litter.
carry just a touch more speed into the corner at let momentum take you thru and when exiting instead of planting the accelerator and losing valuable traction (inevitably veering off the track) ease on the gas on the last part of the corner and plant it when you are nearly straight.. theres a bit of balance involved i guess but it works for me 👍

ps: there are so many threads on the gt3 forum on handling FF cars its not funny. they are REALLY worth a look.