Can I Reduce my Wheel FFB by adding an Electrical Resistor?

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Xiamoto

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Hello All,

I just bought a used Logitech DFP Wheel and actually like it alot. But even with the Force Feedback set to it's lowest level it still has too much turning resistance to my liking. I want some FFB, just not as much as it has. Does anyone know if I can simply bridge a resistor across the two main wires that connect to the FFB motor to reduce it's level of feedback? Any other methods you are aware of?

Thanks in advance for any info. Cheers!
 
Turning resistance can come from internal gearing and not FFB. (hard to change direction fast, even if FFB is zero) More expensive wheels like G27 has quicker gearing and fanatec wheels have drift mode settings to reduce resistance.
I would just put the power steering option on in GT5. Or was that the game?

Please don't put resistors or other mods. I use FF 10 and still do not get enough so in time you will want more.
If you still want to mod:

Firstly do not connected it to both wires. That way the you will short circuit the PSU and FFB will stay the same. Potentiometer should only be put in series of the circuit, to end of either wire going to the DC motor.
 
You might want to try and re-grease the gear (inside the enclosure) before doing a electrical modification. I'm guessing the DFP must be over 3 years old. Was the previous owner a heavy user?

My G25 felt the same way after 3 years of heavy use. However, I decided to get a new wheel instead.

And I agree with Raitziger- try the power steering option before all else.
 
Yeah, if you were to wire up a resistor in parallel with the motor then you end up with less resistance, not more, and you'll short the board and kill at least the MOSFETs, which are tricky to replace as they're SMD. If you wire a resistor in series then you should get the effect you want, but I wouldn't recommend trying it without changing various settings first. Also turning resistance is from the gears, feedback strength is from the motor, they're different things.
 
Yeah, if you were to wire up a resistor in parallel with the motor then you end up with less resistance, not more, and you'll short the board and kill at least the MOSFETs, which are tricky to replace as they're SMD. If you wire a resistor in series then you should get the effect you want, but I wouldn't recommend trying it without changing various settings first. Also turning resistance is from the gears, feedback strength is from the motor, they're different things.

Thanks. The gears are mechanically smooth when FFB is turned off, so the strong "turning resistance" I refer to is certainly coming from the FFB motor. I've got a DFGT also, so it's no big deal for me to try some electrical mods to the DFP and maybe create a really nice rig. Cheers!
 
Ah, fair enough. Well if you do add a resistor do let us (or just me) know how it goes. I'm not entirely sure about this but I think the 12V power supply is rated at 1.25A, so if P = VI, you'll need a resistor that can handle at least 15W, but I'd make it 17W+ to be on the safe side. I have no idea what the impedance of the motor is and it's hard to know what value the resistor should be, but I suppose that'll come down to personal preference.

I might be talking absolute nonsense, it's way past my bedtime and I'm not thinking about what I'm saying in the slightest but it sounds somewhat plausible.
 
I think that power supply DC current must be higher than 1.25A of DC current. (15W is pretty small amount of power)

Electromotive force depend mostly on current so you will be reducing the current in the circuit to reduce FFB. I can not help you more because I do not have the PSU or motor specs. You can anyways calculate the motor equivalent resistance to figure out what the additional resistor should be if you want to reduce current (FFB) e.g. to 80% of original. (and open your physics book if you are rusty on basic circuit theory :) )
 
I think that power supply DC current must be higher than 1.25A of DC current. (15W is pretty small amount of power)

Electromotive force depend mostly on current so you will be reducing the current in the circuit to reduce FFB. I can not help you more because I do not have the PSU or motor specs. You can anyways calculate the motor equivalent resistance to figure out what the additional resistor should be if you want to reduce current (FFB) e.g. to 80% of original. (and open your physics book if you are rusty on basic circuit theory :) )

15W isn't much, no, but when it comes to motors you apply the equation F=BIL, Meaning the force (F) equals the product of the magnetic flux of the permanent magnets (B), the current in the coil (I) and the length of the coil (L), so if the magnets were strong enough and the coil was long enough the motor could theoretically work on milliamps. Also I'm pretty sure that 15W would quite easily kill a person.

Also electromotive force doesn't depend on current at all, it's the other way around. Electromotive force, EMF, is what most people call voltage. When you pass a voltage through a conductor, current is the result; you don't pass current through a conductor to get a voltage because current doesn't exist without the voltage in the first place.

To put it more simply, if you have a 12V 1.25A regulated power supply, you won't always have 12V at 1.25A from the supply. You always, always get 12V because that's how transformers work (the ratio of primary to secondary coils in the transformer steps down the 110/240V from your wall to a definite, unchanging voltage), but the current depends on what the 12V is flowing through. Ohm's law states that V = IR (I is current), which can be written as I = V/R. That means that 12V through 10R (10 ohms) will give you 1.2A, 12V through 20R will give you 0.6A, and so on.

So you see, increasing the resistance with resistors will reduce the current because the same amount of voltage is going through a higher resistance, which means less current is being produced.

I don't know what kind of resistance you'll want to add, but I'd estimate the motor is approximately 10-15 ohms or so; if you apply Ohm's law, 12V divided by a range of 10-15 ohms gives you 1.2 to 0.8A. I'd be surprised if it's as low as 10 ohms because running at a steady 1.2A on a 1.25A power supply is very close to the limit. If I were you I'd basically assume some values for the force of the motor, the length of the coil and the strength of the magnets and use 1A for the current in the F = BIL equation, so you could say F is 100, B and L together equal 100, because 100(F) = 100(BL) x 1(I). Then use V = IR to drop I from 1 to, say, 0.7, and that should in theory, reduce F (the thing you have an issue with) to 70% of the original. V, B and L are absolute constants, R is what you want to change, I and F are what will change as a result. You don't need to be incredibly accurate but I would guess the resistor will be something like 5 ohms or so, maybe less. Then you need to consider the power dissipation in the resistor, the equation for that is P = VI. If you have 12V at 1A, you need a 12W rated resistor at least, but I'd get one higher than that to be safe.


I hope this helps you or anyone in some way, I've spent about an hour typing this post trying to make it make some sense. In case you're wondering where I'm getting my information I'm an electronic engineering student and I deal with stuff like this all the time. I think I'd been drinking when I posted my last reply so I wasn't in the mood to really think about it properly...

Edit: As an aside, in case you're wondering why the power supply is 12V and not lower, like say 5V, it's because it's much easier to get 1A (for example) from 12V; if R = V/I then 12V/1A is 12R, 5V/1A is 5R. It's just much easier to increase the voltage than it is to decrease the resistance, especially when you're running off of at least 110V in the first place.
 
Also electromotive force doesn't depend on current at all, it's the other way around. Electromotive force, EMF, is what most people call voltage. When you pass a voltage through a conductor, current is the result; you don't pass current through a conductor to get a voltage because current doesn't exist without the voltage in the first place.
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I mixed the terms. Electric motor torque depends almost linearly from electric current. But there is also no electromotive force EMF inside motor if current does not go through.EMF is inside the motor and not same as outside voltage when current flows. ( due internal impedance)
 
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I mixed the terms.

In that case, we're probably not disagreeing!

Electric motor torque depends almost linearly from electric current.

Indeed, the equation is a straightforward product of the current, flux and coil length so if two stay the same and one changes (which is likely because the flux in an assembled motor can't be changed easily, nor can the coil length) then the torque responds in a linear fashion.

But there is also no electromotive force EMF inside motor if current does not go through.EMF is inside the motor and not same as outside voltage when current flows. ( due internal impedance)

This bit is questionably worded. You're not wrong, you can't have EMF without current, but it's a 'what came first, the chicken or the egg?' thing, where EMF is the chicken and current is the egg. You never apply current to a conductor to get a voltage, that doesn't make sense because the current depends on the EMF and resistance. Remember that you can visually check what sort of current you expect from a transformer, regulator or Zener diode, you can read resistor colour codes to know what the resistance is, but you can't look at a circuit to tell what the current will be directly; you work it out with Ohm's law or you power the circuit on with an ammeter in series with the circuit because the current is the product of the EMF and resistance.

I don't disagree that the EMF inside the motor is different to the EMF outside it, but that's because if you had a circuit that was just a motor in series with a 12V power supply, you'd have 12V entering the motor and 0V exiting it. That's because there's nothing else burning the EMF off so it all has to go through the motor's coil, if you changed the resistance of the circuit outside of the motor the motor's torque would drop because of the reduced current.
 
Thank you, all contributors to my post, I find all of your technical speak fantastic.

Adding electrical resistance will be worth looking into for me, as I am an Industrial Designer with tons of experience developing products for the marketplace. For several years I have been ergonomically modifying PC based racing wheels and controllers, in order to get them to perform better ergonomically for me personally. I now have an interest in the "GT5 Brand" and like the PC wheels of the past, I see opportunities to improve console based racing wheels as well..............(plus the allure of potential market success can't be denied!) My goal is to ultimately build a better racing wheel for my own personal use but perhaps this conversation is the start of creating a "new kind of wheel controller" for the marketplace as well. Cheers!
 

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