Can PD Learn Some Lessons From Codemasters? (SPECIAL TOPIC)

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Hello, GTPlanet. Here is a special topic courtesy of myself, John.

Codemasters. This series is well known for games like "Jarrett and LaBonte Stock Car Racing," "Colin McRae Rally," "TOCA Touring Car," and "Pro Race Driver" among others. Codemasters has my respect in racing games. I'm playing "Jarrett and LaBonte Stock Car Racing" now as I speak. This game features maybe 100-150 cars, possibly 23 tracks that can be raced in over seven different conditions (sunny, sunset, nighttime, cloudy, drizzle, rain, stormy), has 12-14 drivers to a track, and performs very decently. Other than Gran Turismo, this was one of my favorite PS1 games. Outdated it may be, but it still provides a very cool atmosphere most racing games even wished they had. Also, I seen a preview of "Pro Race Driver 2" on "X-Play," and I seen that as many as 22 could go to a track. The demo was on an XBOX, but I think it will be for all consoles, and all good. Look at the amount of detail in Pro Race Driver 2 if you get to look at it. While the detail isn't like Gran Turismo 4, Codemasters will most likely have all sorts of tunable options while facing WAY more than 6 or even 8 competitors. Colin McRae Rally is like the rally game to beat. I don't think anyone ever came close yet. Maybe if Gran Turismo was more focused on rallying and excluded the road racing aspect, it would be a sizable contender. But do you think that PD can learn from what Codemasters can put into games?

Let me start.

I am not saying in my introduction that Codemasters is better than Polyphony Digital. If I said that, I would never be on GTPlanet.net cherishing every moment of Gran Turismo gameplay. I think Codemasters know how to cram so much into one game, even if they aren't as stylish with cars and environments as GT. Like I've mentioned how PD and Infogrames/Melbourne House can come together to learn about making endurance racing where the time changes, based on Viper Zero's "PSM Preview 4-8-2004" topic, PD wants to try to have you race cars in any time of day with any weather condition. For one thing, if they want to make it golden, I'm all behind Polyphony Digital. Playing J & L Stock Car Racing, I was amazed with all the track conditions, the tracks themselves, cosmetic car damage (I know this won't happen, and I kind of don't want any to begin with), the 12-14 competitors on the track at once, and how the game plays without being excessively slow. Codemasters' only flaw is that games don't really look too appealing compared to PD's Gran Turismo.

But, do you think, based on my introduction, that PD can learn some lessons from Codemasters in terms of making racing games? By the way, I think TOCA Touring Car had snow conditions for the tracks.
 
Race driver 2 will be for Xbox and PC only which is one of the reasons it looks so good while having up to 20 car fields. But even still it has a ways to go if it wants to look as good as GT4. I don't think PD can learn anything from codemasters in terms of pushing a console further. PD could very well have more AI if they wanted to reduce the car and track detail, they just put a higher priority on graphics it seems. Now, I think PD could learn from codemasters how to program the AI's behavior, it's much better in the TOCA series. GT is a driving simulator, TOCA is a racing simulator.
 
i think PD focuses more on refining, and not so much on expanding. tho they do add more and more to the GT line, they try to focus more on what they already had, and make it better. im sure they have considered all that youve mentioned above, but perhaps it might not be possible unless they totally change the game. and doing this might make it a hole new game. they probably want to keep it as close to the GT1 feel but still offer new things, but having some changes might totally take away from the GT feel.
 
RD2 is coming out for PS2 later this year, so it's not XB and PC only, but the PS2 version like RD1 will have cut down grids and the resolution will be lower alond with the quality of the graphical effects. As for PD learning from Codmaster, I think they could learn from each other, CM has some great programming for AI in their rzacing games, PD could learn from that, but CM games don't shine like GT does, I have the RD2 demo, and it's a good game, 21 cars per race, but I would still take GT3 over it from what I've seen so far, theres damage, big grids, the graphics are great but my PC is a lot more powerfull than my PS2, but it lackes the finesse, the cars don't hadle as well, theres less tinkering options, theres no tuning (not that you'd exepct that in a game with real race series) but it all adds up. If PD could do the AI as well as in RD2 GT4 would be fantastic, and once the AI is sorted, the might look into creating larger grids.
 
Originally posted by live4speed
... the PS2 version like RD1 will have cut down grids and the resolution will be lower alond with the quality of the graphical effects....
Click to expand...

And even with cut down grids and lower resolution, RD1 was in my opinion unplayable on the PS2, because of the low framerate, which dropped to like 1 frame per second when the pack went through a chicane and some chrashes occured.

Codemasters can learn more from PD than the other way around!
 
Seeing the poor optimized PS2 version of RD1 Codemasters can learn *a lot* from the makers of GP Challenge.

Each game have his priorities.
 
What PD can learn from Codemaster's is the Rallypart, which in both GT2 and GT3 suck...hard.
Codemaster's games is also more alive. Toca Race Driver for example. The player always gets new info, like if a certain part of the car has a problem etc. etc. etc...
What I dont get is how PD can't get those focking licenses that both Microsoft and Codemasters bought. They have the money for it. Right?
 
What licenses have MS and CM both got that PD don't have, CM has TOCA, V8 Supercars and DTM licenses and nothing special car wise, MS has licenses for Porsche and Ferrari, nothing special anywhere else. Money isn't the issue when it comes to licenses, if somone else owns it, it;s up to them AND the company who sold the license to allow you to use it, if one of them says no, you don't get it, and if the company holding the license is a competitior, the chances sre you won't get for any ammount of cash.
 
I dont think they need to learn anythig from Codemasters. They have their own thing going like Codies. And many have said that WRC3 is equal or better than CM4.

RD2 looks good but its focusing more on sports cars now rather than race cars. Open top convertables in races. They seem to making the game more like PGR2 than GT3/4. TD LeMans For DC is still one the greatest racing games ever made and there isn't anything llike it out or coming out which is sad.
 
I don't understand why in codemasters (and others) games you can get your car damaged and in GT not?
Is this because the graphic in GT is better (and so damaged are difficult to make) or for license reasons?

I agree with who sad that rally in GT series SUX!
And this is the only aspect that PD can 'learn' from codemasters

I also think that codemasters should concetrate on making one racing game and not all this titles. Maybe in this way they can compete with the power of GT :trouble:
 
When PD/Sony said that they won't include a damage system in GT 4,they said it was because of manufacturers didn't want to see their cars damaged,that it would give them a bed rep or something like that.Well i don't belive that,look at PGR,it has top manufacturers and all the cars can be fully damaged.I think the reason for the exclusion of the damage system is the limited capabillity of the PS2.If they implemented the damage system the game wouldn't run higher then 20 fps.

As for Codemasters,i think that they have hit the jackpot with Race Driver 2.The game looks great,the A.I. is great,the gameplay is great(easy to learn,easy to play,difficult to master),fully damageable cars/trucks.The only thing that's slightly dissapointing with this game is it's limited amout of cars/trucks.There are about 40 in total compared to over 500 in GT4.

So yeah,they could learn from eachother,implement the RD A.I. in GT and implement the physics and the graphics from GT in RD and you will have the best racing games available.
 
The damage is licensing issues, most of the cars used in GT would be okay to be damaged, but some of the better cars might not be, it all depends on the manufacturers. Also you have to consider that if PD put damage into a GT game and they have stated this, it would be realistic damage, no driving head on into other cars and surviving it, and car manufacturers have more of a problem allowing that knd of damage than the damage in RD and PGR2 although RD2 has hit new ground for a game with thoes cars in being able to total them. Remeber though, if PD arn't allowed to put damage on only a few cars in GT, that means there is no damage in the game at all, it's a decision that would be made early on in development, to leave thoes cars put, or to leave damage out, leaving the cars out could mean leaving out some of the better cars in the game though.
 
In my humble opinion, Codemasters has a lot more to learn from PD than vice versa. Codemasters has been losing my respect fast, from being a publisher that has managed to pull out classic after classic to a publisher that has become a marketing driven game factory with games that lack a core of excellence to set them apart. I cannot understand how on a new generation of hardware you can make a game feel less realistic, but Codemasters have managed it and apparently have done so on purpose too. The games lack depth, too - good replays of every bit of racing you do, and where's the decent wheel support? Wheel support has become so bad it makes me cry each time I play one of their games.

One area they stand out, and that is the visual car damange. Internally it's not very impressive, but the exterior car damange in particularly CMR4 is excellent. Thumbs up there. Also, they managed to make the PS2 version of CMR4 look great and very smooth. If only they would add some progressive realism for those who stick to a game longer than a few weeks and add decent wheel support (a good racing game makes you want to buy a wheel for it) then they can come back on top again. Right now they seriously threaten to descend into mediocrity.

DTM2 has a maximum of 12 players online in a field of 21 cars (i.e. 9 AI cars). That is quite nice, and I must say that at least DTM2 is better than DTM1. But neither has the charm of the original TOCA series, and I just don't understand why that is.

So please just let Codemasters learn from PD what bringing depth and class to a game really means. PD on the other hand can just wait for the PS3 to make a full grid of cars and add damange. And although I think the AI will be pretty decent in GT4 already (we haven't seen it yet but that doesn't mean too much) I don't even find that so important - just race online and you'll get the most realistic intelligence currently in existence.
 
Codemasters are pretty crap (compared to how they were) these days, I wouldn't want PD to take notes from them! RD2 is a pc and xbox exclusive I'm sure...who cares anyway, i'd rather own it on the pc then either console anyway :). I thought RD2 damage was good, but having seen the crash vids of RSC 2, RD2 crash damage suddenly seems alot less impresisve :)

over and out peeps!

*goes to work *


:(
 
Well,let's see.The demand these days is greater then it was in the days of TOCA 1 and 2.Now people want more and more,if this way a standalone TOCA game(only British Touring cars) it would have been even worse.But i do agree with you,the first 2 games were really good,especially TOCA 2.But if u try to play that game now after playing Race Driver you will see how much better everything is in Race Driver.I don't know why people don't like this game,i am thinking it's because of the very unrealistic handling and the awefull netcode that ruined Online play.Personally i don't mind the handling(wich in RD2 is much improved).After a while you get used to it.

Ah well,bring on Race Driver 2 i say,so far it looks promising.
 
I think the handling model used in the original 2 toca's was much beter than in the games after thoes, they wen't from real to arcadey, they don't feel right anymore, true the games as a whole is better, but with better handling it could be a great game instead of average.
 
Just my two cents. Personally I think that the TOCA series games and even the Colin McRae rally games were a lot more fun than the GT series ever were. Yea the GT series were good, but there was really no atmosphere to the game. Ok the car physics were good and the graphics were amazing, but still I thought the with Race Driver i was constantly on the edge of my seat. Especially with the story line mode, that was a nice little touch. It made it mouch more than just driving cars round tracks. The same I think could be said with Le Mans for the PS2. I just found it a lot more fun than the GT series as I felt a lot more invovled with the game.

Supercharger666 : I've never experianced a frame rate problem with RD. I think it may just be your copy :confused: .

Also to add, I think that PD could make the GT series so it envolves the player a bit more a make them more of a race driver, which seems to be the direction they've taken with GT4. That they could learn from CM.
 
Originally posted by live4speed
I think the handling model used in the original 2 toca's was much beter than in the games after thoes, they wen't from real to arcadey, they don't feel right anymore, true the games as a whole is better, but with better handling it could be a great game instead of average.
Click to expand...

I know, that game after TOCA 2 was awfull. If I had a wheel, i'd probably attempt to get hold of TOCA2 for the PC, it was such a great game. I do have Race Driver for the PS2 and it was such a dissapointment compared to what I would have expected. It had loads of international circuits and included several different race series. But the PS2 just couldn't handle all that was being thrown at it. The handling was just messed up, I was windering if the PC or X-box versions had better handling. I'm probably going to get RD2 on the X-Box, because the PS2 version will more than likely look like arse.
 
Can you imagine having damage on things like the Escudo Pikes Peak and R390. If some of the spoilers on them were damaged it would require graphics damage of the same calibur as WRC and CM. Which are both dedicated rally games.
I think there will be a great change in the rally part of GT4. Screen shots of grand Canyon on GT4:P have shown a much narrower track compared to the 'dirt tracks' of GT2/GT3.
 
TOCA 2 did have the best test course you can ever ask for. One with road courses, an oval, a bit of a skidpad... what more could you want?
 
Have any of you guys played CMR 4? You have to admit that is IMO a quite realistic rally experience...I quite like the Race driver 2 demo so far, can't wait to test out the 100% complete version with my wheel.

On the other PD are quite accomplished in their road racing, and the only thing they could learn from Codemasters is probably the rally side of their company.
 
Originally posted by DODGE the VIPER
On the other PD are quite accomplished in their road racing, and the only thing they could learn from Codemasters is probably the rally side of their company.
Click to expand...

Yes it's true.But CM would never do such a good realistic racing game like Gran Turismo 3 (not the rally part of gt3).
 
Originally posted by DODGE the VIPER
Have any of you guys played CMR 4? You have to admit that is IMO a quite realistic rally experience...I quite like the Race driver 2 demo so far, can't wait to test out the 100% complete version with my wheel.

On the other PD are quite accomplished in their road racing, and the only thing they could learn from Codemasters is probably the rally side of their company.
Click to expand...

Realistic? Certainly not the driving part of it. GT3's Rally driving model is already more realistic than CMR4s. If you want a realistic rally driving however you should try rally in GT4 Prologue. If only CMR4 had that, I'd be addicted as hell to it.
 
Well I'm hoping Richard Burns Rally will be the first rally 'simulator' :)
 
The only thing Codemasters had over PD was AI - and I contend the AI from TOCA Race Driver wasn't a patch over what it was in the original TOCA, and TOCA 2 (the old BTCC games).

Their handling isn't a patch on the GT series, graphically they're pretty ordinary on PSX and PS2 (although TOCA RD looked pretty good on a half decent spec PC), but the large fields are nice - until there's a couple of accidents on the starting grid and the particle effects drive the FPS into single figures.

Six cars are fine, when they're evenly matched and well driven. If PD can finetune the AI from a car selection, driving and pit strategy point of view, they'll have Codemasters well covered.

I contend Codemasters are off-form at the moment. TOCA RD was pretty ordinary (and you only need look at the lack of PC after market support for it to realise that) and the CMR series has lost momentum - I think WRC3 was well over CMR4 (can't wait for CMR5 - will that be the Paris-Dakar Le Mans game, with a heap of gardening and gym work in-between?), and the IndyCar/IRL game was pretty ordinary (who in 2004 releases a PS2 racing game without Driving Force support?!?), so they're under pressure at the moment.

I just hope TOCA RD 2 has the handling fixed upo - I'm going to insist on a test drive, and if it's crap, I walk away.

Does the PS2 version have on-line?
 
Originally posted by T5-R
Well I'm hoping Richard Burns Rally will be the first rally 'simulator' :)
Click to expand...


Yeah, it seems to be a great game looking at screens!
 
After playing the toca race driver 2 demo i am really impressed! Handling is much improved.
 
It's still too arcadey, no where near as muh control as GT3's handling, but it is improved.
 
RD2 is more realistic then GT3 on pro simulation mode imo.
 
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